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Creating A Lake And Sandy Beach - Members Projects - More Practical Help - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2010 01:31 pm
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Wayne Williams
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I decided that I should have started this thread when I began making the Lake, well I guess it's better late than never.

Thanks To MikeC in advance for moving the relevant posts into this thread!


Today progress was made on the sandy beach. I used N gauge ballast as the sand. So far it is looking just fine. It still has some drying to do yet though.



I got confused trying to pick the right picture from the photo gallery for this next picture. It seems that the color I mixed up for the paint under the sand matched so well that I had to use the photo numbers to be sure I placed the one with the sand here.


I may get up enough courage to try mixing some paint up for the lake bed this afternoon. If it doesn't look right, I'll just throw it away!

Wayne



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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2010 05:59 pm
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Careful not to bury your try-square. ;-)



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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2010 08:02 pm
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Wayne wrote:

I took a cup of water and added a drop of blue paint and a drop of washing up liquid and poured it onto the area that is to be the lake. Yes, I have changed it to a lake instead of an ocean. I didn't like the idea of Brain contaminating my ocean with my own oil! :mutley

You can see by the color of the blue water where the deepest spots and the shallowest spots are located. I also wanted the water to go more up in the left hand corner.

The darker blue (lower right) area will be filled in some to get it below 1/8" deep. That way I can do the entire lake in just one pour.


It did not come out too bad as far as being level is concerned. I may end up removing some of the edging on the right side of this photo. Not sure just yet though.


The blue water has been removed and I have ground down the areas that needed more water in them.
Now to re-seal the surface and try the water again.


I should add that I HAD NO LEAKS!!!!!! :Happy :Happy
Wayne

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henryparrot
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Joined: Tue Nov 13th, 2007 Location: Wayne Williams wrote: henryparrot wrote:
If it doesnt come out well paint the sea black and say its oil spill come up the coast from the Gulf of Mexico

:lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


Brian,
We are praying that the oil doesn't show up around us here. I really think this spill is a lot worse than they are telling us.

Wayne

Wayne if i pop down the beach here on the rocks at droskyn if you look there are still some splodges of crude oil still on the rocks there that have hardened not a lot of it and not  that many  people  really notice it is there.

My point is that was from the torrey canyon disaster in the 1960`s so that  can have a long term effect on the coastline
Hopefully i will mot drift up as far as florida

Brian


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  Wayne are you planning on having submerged rocks, or rocks at the water's edge? If so you'll probably want to get them located beforehand.
Also - what colour/s are you going to paint on the lake bed?

Mike

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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2010 08:06 pm
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Mike,
I am currently working on a pier that will have rocks all around it, and yes I will put the pier and the rocks in place before pouring the resin. I may also put in a boat, but at this point, I don't have one to put in. If I really want one, it will be a time before you will be seeing the resin poured!

As far as submerged rocks along the shore line goes, not a bad idea. I need to do something because, just water and shore line, don't seem to get it. I might need a pretty good sized rock for one in the water. I have some talus that will work great for around the pier, but they are not that large for a boulder in the water.


Brian,
There are already about 50 miles of contaminated shore line in Florida, albeit up in the northern panhandle. I fear that it will only be a matter of time before we have tar balls all along the shores of the west coast.
Wayne

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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2010 08:08 pm
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MikeC
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Wayne wrote:

MikeC,
Forgot to answer your question on the colors for the lake bed.

Good question!!!!! I have been searching the web for pictures of Lake Michigan and have found several. Everyone of them a different color! I don't think I'm going to win this am I?

There are several pictures where the lake is a brilliant blue and many others where it's actually a light green. Aerial pictures show more of a grey with light brown near the shores.

Any suggestions?

 MikeC wrote:

Suggestions? Yes. I'd suggest to avoid the swimming pool look use anything but blue! The blue comes from the sky [obviously] and anyway, if your main viewpoint is to be towards the cliffs, there will be very little sky influence due to their height. I think you would do well to rely on the cliffs' reflection to make the water convincing. In fact it should be a beautiful effect.
If you're after clear water with a sandy bottom, you could go with some green that's not too pretty and with sufficient yellow in it so that it doesn't look bitter. Much safer though, I think, to merge some browns into it, particularly around any rocks and the pylons of the pier.
I got away with purple! brown and green in my first New England river.
You could try mixing some paint into the resin[?] you're using too. I haven't used the Woodland Scenics product but I'm 99% certain that you can mix acrylic paint with it too. It's probably the same stuff as the resin I use anyway.
Coloured resin is great at muting the base colours.
Just some suggestions - I don't think there are any hard and fast rules here!

Mike

 P.S.  I think your best bet is to be guided by aerial photos. The last thing you want is for it to be blue from above.

Wayne Williams
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  Thanks for the suggestions Mike, I will most definitely try to follow them.

Mike, I used only 1 drop of blue in that cup of water and you can see the results of that, will the resin react the same way? Which color would be the best to add to the resin, green, brown or what?

One more item I have been thinking on and it's weeds. There are plenty of weeds in lakes. Most from my perspective seems a muted green with some browns in them. I was wondering if I were to place some paint in the resin to remove SOME of the clearness of it, and then glue some Woodland Scenics ground foam (sparsely) on the "lake bottom", would it look like weeds at a depth?

I am only working with 1/8" total here so the weeds or grasses that I use would have to be the "Fine" variety.

Has anyone out there tried doing this?

I'm thinking like I might have to do a test run?

Wayne




  Wayne don't forget I only have limited experience myself, so that's all I have to go with.

 As for the best colour to add to the resin, I couldn't decide that either, which is why I've gone with multiple pours for the last two jobs - river on the old layout, and tidal estuary/channel on the new. I figure that nearest the bottom is where you'll have some suspended sediment, so I started with brown. I reckoned the middle layers should carry some green [which serves to mute the brown a little] as well as giving it a nice 'living' colour, and the uppermost layer can take a hint of blue to aid the 'outdoors under the sky' look in the form of blue-green.  It seems like a lot of trouble to go to, and the effects are only subtle, but if I ever do another I'll be doing it in layers!

 It's hard to say how much paint you'll need because it depends on the volume of resin you're pouring. I got a bit reckless and added too much brown last time, which I ended up not even using. It's important you add just a tiny amount at a time, and remember that if you're mixing it in a pot that's smaller in surface area than your lake, which is normal, the resin will look quite a bit paler when you spread it on the lake.

 I also found that if you let water get into the resin it can go quite milky [see my old New England thread] so be careful to avoid it.
 
 I would advise against using any Pthalo [Thalo] green because it's very potent and far too vivid. I've used cheap "forest green" type colours. Sap green would be good, as would Hooker's. I've always added some red or red oxide to them to tame them down somewhat too, but that can depend on your own location. You might want a cleaner look.

 I've never tried adding foliage for weed beds. I don't see why it wouldn't work though. For Swanhurst's Pinchbeck River I painted some weedbeds in and they were ok I think.

 I hope that's some help. For me it's always a bit hit-and-miss, and quite an adventure :lol:

Mike

P.S.  adding paint to the resin will give you a very good guide as to when the stuff is properly mixed

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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2010 08:15 pm
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MikeC
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Thank you for your help Mike. I do realize that this is a learning experience for both of us, and I would like to make sure you understand that if this does not turn out right I will in NO way hold you responsible. I need ALL the help I can get and you have a special gift that stands a whole lot better chance of looking good than anything I could ever come up with.

I have just re-read the instruction on the bottle, it may be a good idea for me to pass some of them along to everyone.

Product: Realistic Water, made by Woodland Scenics, product number: C1211

1. It is water soluble and non-toxic.
2. There is only one bottle, no mixing required.
3. Some shrinkage may occur.
4. Will not crack.
5. Do not shake the bottle.
6. It says to paint the sealed water cavity with Earth colors liquid pigment.
7. Do not pour more than 1/8", if cavity is deeper, pour in 1/8" increments.
8. Do not brush.
9. Use a toothpick to gently flow product into tight areas.

Well that is basically the instructions on the bottle. The material looks like a clear liquid.

I think tomorrow I will do a test pour with a touch of paint stirred in, to see if it will cure properly.

Wayne

Wayne Williams



MaxSouthOz



  I'm not sure this suggestion will be welcomed at this stage, but I painted the bottom of the lake the varying colours, dark in the deep centre and then lighter to the beach.  Stuck in some weeds glued to the bottom and a sunken branch glued in as well.

That way I could just pour the resin in on top and it looked "right."  No need to put any colours in the resin at all.  I have a photo or two somewhere if interested?

Is that something that would work for you, Wayne?


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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2010 08:18 pm
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Wayne wrote:

Max,
I think that is sort of where I am headed. I was planning to paint the lake bed and then use very subtle tinting in the resin to subdue the colors on the bottom.



I'm afraid that it will be a little while before I can pour the resin for the lake. You see, I keep changing things. :shock:

I decided that just a sand beach and some water was too simple looking, so I am adding a fishing pier. It is copied from several that are on Lake Michigan. The piers are concrete with hugh boulders lined around the edges. You can crawl out on the boulders and sit down and fish.

That said, now I needed to make a space for some boulders around the pier. The pier was fairly simple and only took a few minutes to construct. At the last minute I decided that I didn't like the joint on the edges of the pier, so I filled them in with some putty, it now needs some touching up.



Once the pier was made, I laid it in place and traced around the edges, then cut out some of the foam on a slope to allow room for the boulders. I also painted the sand beach a color similar to the N gauge ballast that I intend to use for the sand. It is still wet in this picture, hopefully it will dry a little lighter for a better match.


Now that I am over 1/8" deep, I will have to do multiple pours to fill the lake bed.

Another change is the weeds, most weeds in Lake Michigan, along the shores, are more reed like. The problem became, how do I get weeds to stand up?

While pondering that question my wife went out to get the mail, guess what was in there? Yep, a catalogue from Micro-Mark, and inside was the Noch Grass Master on sale for the summer.

Should be here in 5 business days! :Happy

The goal now is to get the grasses to stand up in the water, should be interesting.

Wayne

Marty wrote:

Now that will be worth watching!

On the Pentrecourt Halt diorama the reeds are sisal kitchen string, dyed green, untwisted to get individual strands and then glued to the riverbed/bank with pva glue.

Once dry, the resin "water" poured into the river and then teased into place around the clumps of reeds with the pointy end of a bamboo cocktail stick.

Seemed to work out OK for me... and N gauge too.

Wayne Williams
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  Same thing for the weeds Wayne, pour slow and poke the resin in and the air bubbles out with the cocktail stick. Makes a huge difference and it's easy to do.

I too had the flecks of paint in the resin on one of my early test batches. Tried a couple of different manufacturers of acrylic paint until I did find one that mixed into the resin nicely.

That was for the two part resin that Mike and I use, might not work for the Woodland scenics stuff though.

And be really sparing with the paint, unless you want a murky river like the Pentrecourt Halt diorama! No more than a drop or two, then mix it in and see what it looks like, you can always add more.

Mind you, add too much and you won't have to worry about air bubbles amongst the weeds, 'cause you won't be able to see the weeds.

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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2010 08:38 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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Wayne.  I'm not sure if you have your resin yet, but have a look at Magic Water.   http://www.unrealdetails.com

Dave Williams is the man; and the brochure that comes with the product is fantastic.  Dozens of ideas.

The beauty of this stuff is that it's one pour.  You just blow gently on it and all the bubbles are pulled out by the CO2 in your breath.  You can set up all your underwater scenery and just pour straight over it.

I tried the Woodlands Scenics stuff and never got on with it, but this stuff was great.  Also Dave will answer emails personally with help.  He's in Coloma MI

I used Woodlands Scenics Water effects for the ripples on the surface.  I have a photo if you're interested.

Cheers,  Max



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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2010 08:28 am
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Wayne Williams
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Thanks for that link Max, Seems like pretty good stuff. Sadly however I already have the Woodland Scenics stuff.

The magic water site says that you can pour up to 1/2 depth at a time. That could be an advantage is some circumstances. Although that also means you are using much more material.

I may give it a try on the next project, because I doubt if I will have enough of this to do both.


MikeC,
Did you check out that link? It has several pictures of small lakes or ponds. I would like to know your opinion on the colors used in them. I felt that they were a little too green.


Wayne



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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2010 09:52 am
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Some were a bit too green, maybe, but personally I find some of the blues more objectionable than the greens. Looks like a good product though.

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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2010 10:41 am
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henryparrot
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The colour we see with the human eye of  a clear sea varies vastly dependant on the light and the sea state on a calm day with bright sunlight it can look extremly pale blue a bit of cloud and it will be extremely darker if its choppy its seems to darken further

Of course places on the south and east coast of england it always looks brown and muddy always.

Brian

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 Posted: Sat Jun 12th, 2010 10:59 am
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Wayne Williams
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So I guess it boils down to, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

I am going to lean in the direction of green and maybe graduating into brown. I will begin by painting the entire lake bed a slightly darker shade of sand.

From that point on, only time will tell.

Wayne



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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 11:09 am
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Wayne Williams
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This is my first go at trying to paint a lake bed, so I would like as many opinions and or suggestions possible. Both pictures are of the SAME test piece, the only difference is the lighting in which the photo was taken.

This picture was taken indoors with no lights on, only filtered daylight coming in from the window shades.


This picture was taken outside in direct sun light.


There are five painting steps in this test after painting the lake bed white to seal the foam.

First was the light sand color (far right) over entire lake bed.
Second was the light green extreme outer edge on the left, bottom and top.
Third was the wet sand (second color in from the right) but only painted 1/2" into the lake bed.
Fourth was the deep green at the deepest end of the lake and only half way towards the end of the wet sand.
Fifth was the same color of the deep green, but I added 50% water to the remaining mix that I had.
I even added some pure water at the end to try and blend the colors some. I really believe that helped.

Opinions Good or Bad PLEASE!

Wayne

PS: Once WE are happy with the colors I will add some weeds, a stone or two and then pour in some tinted resin to complete the test.



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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 01:00 pm
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The texture looks great Wayne, the colour looks a bit too much on the green side to me, Mike would probably be able to tell you how to get in bluer, sand colour is good too.  It has been a fascinating little project this one, nice work mate.

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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 01:28 pm
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A weak brown wash may tie things together, Wayne.
Interesting experiment.



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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 02:29 pm
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I'm with those that say the green is a bit too intense, Wayne, but I'm sure it can be fixed with a wash of an appropriate colour.

I'd personally go for a brown with a little blue mixed in and be painting it in an haphazard pattern, but I'm sure Mike C will have a better idea than me. As a first attempt, the first photo looks an excellent start though. :thumbs:thumbs

My other comment concerns the actual bed of the piece. I'm assuming that you will be making the bottom of the real thing more uneven than the test piece. I know there are many beaches that have a smooth sea bed, but I always think that a more sculptured bottom (sand banks, gullies etc.) looks more convincing.

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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 06:53 pm
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This is an interesting test!

 Wayne - sorry if I'm a bit thick here - but the raised light green surrounds - is that to represent dry land?

 As for the colours - I like the green. Others have said it looks a bit too green and the idea of a brown wash is in my opinion spot-on, but if you're going to tint the water brown initially, than that's probably the same effect you'll get when you pour it, so personally I'd go with what you have.
 After checking out some online photos of the sort of place you're modelling I think you're very close to the mark. [not that you can always trust the colours in online photos!] The water is considerably cleaner than in my estuary, for example.
 Since the layout is indoors, I think the green as seen in photo #1 would be a good base colour.

 I think the colour - not referring to how dark or how light it is - of the sandy beach looks better at its extreme right edge in the second photo because the colour is washed out by the light. It does look a bit pale though in the bright light.
 In the first photo the sand colour looks a tiny bit strong to my eye, but again, brown-tinted water would tame it down.  I'd still be tempted to thinly wash some weak transparent blue to blue-green over it to grey it a fraction beforehand. That might sound drastic, but the wash would be very thin, and it would still look like a [greyer] flesh colour after that - it wouldn't look blue to blue-green.

  I like what Jeff said, too, about sculpting the lake bed. It could be a sensational result.

 It looks good though, Wayne. I'm sure we're all almost as keen as you are to see how the test goes.

Mike

 

 

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 Posted: Mon Jun 14th, 2010 09:33 pm
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Wayne Williams
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Thank you one and all for your comments.

I am getting excited to keep this project moving, but alas I have golf again tomorrow so we will ALL have to wait until Wednesday.

Jeff,
I also liked what you said about carving out more of the lake bed, so it's already done! I will now have to make multiple pours (1/8" max per), but that may actually help in the long run.

Mike,
The light green raised surrounds was actually more of a mistake than anything else. I just went too far while painting the sand over the entire lake bed. Then I tried to hide it with the dark green, but that didn't.... well you know the rest! Isn't that why you make a test piece?????? :mutley

Now I have to go back and re-read MikeC's instructions. For some reason it just doesn't come easy for me!

Wayne



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 Posted: Wed Jun 16th, 2010 11:26 am
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Wayne Williams
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Today the testing has gone forward. I have planted the weeds, reeds and low bed weeds into the test sample.
Here are the weeds. The dark green is coarse ground foam and the earth color is fine ground foam.


This picture shows the tints that were used to color the resin. The paint is in those cups. I used a tooth pick dabbed into the paint, then stirred the resin with it. It took about seven or eight tries for the dark green color to tint the resin to the level that I thought was right.

The sand color took that many tooth picks then I just dipped a small brush into the paint and used it. The sand didn't seem to color the resin as easily as the darker green did.

I stopped pouring the green resin where the lake bed green changes to the sand color. I then poured in the sand resin immediately and found that I had a defined line between the two colors. The only thing I could do was to gently stir the two colored resins with a tooth pick to try and blend them together.
You can see where I quit stirring the two resins together, about in the middle of the dark green coarse weed bed.


Here you can see one bubble that has popped up from the ground foam, It was not there while I was stirring the two resins together.


Another bubble is showing here at the tall reeds, near the top in this photo. I also went back and teased the edges of the resin with a tooth pick to try and blend it to the sides better. By eye it seems better.


I went back and removed those two bubbles just now. They are not easy to get out of the resin. They do not pop, but I had to chase them to an edge them use a small brush to sweep them up and out of the lake.

I may not have waited long enough for the white PVA glue to thoroughly dry around the reeds. I can still see it around the base of them. The glue seemed dry and was clear, but I should have waited longer. Lesson learned, on the actual lake bed I will let all the glue set for overnight, that should solve that problem.

I would recommend that once you think you are done tweaking the resin that you take close up photos and view them on your computer immediately. It is much easier to spot areas where you can take a tooth pick and fix it before the resin sets up.

I'm going to hit the send button, and go back and do some more of that tweaking right now.

Comments Please, especially in regards to the colors used.

Thanks,
Wayne



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 Posted: Wed Jun 16th, 2010 01:56 pm
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Wayne from my end it seems you have the colours about right,they have blended well,

:thumbs:lol::lol::cool:

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