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Single Slip - Layout Design, Trackwork & Operation. - Getting You Started. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2021 01:57 pm
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Headmaster
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My new track plan requires a single slip.  as I use  code 100 track, this will have to be a Peco insulfrog.  Does anyone know of any operating problems with them or things to look out for?  Tips on wiring for DCC would also be much appreciated.
Michael



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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2021 03:12 pm
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Barry Miltenburg
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Hi Michael

My only experience has been with Peco Code 75 electrofrog versions and whilst they are fussy about being laid dead flat, they operated pefectly well for the 8 years or so that they were installed.  I even had one that was lifted from a previous layout and reused without any adverse effects.

The Code 100 version will be more robust so would suggest that you should not fear or avoid their use.

DCC?  Sorry, wouldn't know where to start :shock:

Barry

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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2021 03:28 pm
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Thanks Barry.  I assume you used electrofrog?  I have heard rumours that the insulfrogs can cause problems, but do not know if that is received wisdom that isn't actually true, so thought I would check
Michael



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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2021 03:32 pm
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Barry Miltenburg
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Michael

I have always thought that dead frogs would invite trouble but, in fact, have used a couple of dead frog crossings without any stalling issues.  That said, I do not run tiny 0-4-0T's.

Personally I do not fear electrofrog wiring as I have always used them since converting to Code 75 about 30 years ago.  I know that it puts fear into some - much the same way that DCC puts a fear into me :???: :???: :???:

Barry

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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2021 05:22 pm
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Ah!  Thank you Barry.  I heard that there were problems with shorts (as in circuits, not clothing) rather than stalling.  Hopefully my stay-alives will prevent that problem.
Michael



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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2021 06:48 pm
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Petermac
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I have a couple of Code 100 double slips Michael although no singles.  As you say, Code 100 are dead frog, easy to wire - I think just a wire to each rail at the centre of the slip but I'll check tomorrow.

I didn't do anything "special" for DCC operation but suggest stay-alives in the locomotives would be a good idea if you plan to use short wheelbase locos or slow run over the slips.

As Barry said, they do need to be laid flat but so do all points really .................. :roll:.



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 Posted: Mon Jun 7th, 2021 07:16 pm
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Ah! Excellent Peter, thank you.  I don't intend dead slow, but it will be small locos, but as I am fitting stay-alives to all locos (not that there are many!) hopefully that will resolve the stalling issue.  And it sounds as if there are no problems with shorts, which is a relief.  I don't want to be fitting a significant junction, only to have to pull it up again.  Point taken about fitting it level.  i do try, but you know how it is sometimes.....
A confirmation on the wiring would be really helpful.

Michael



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 Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2021 01:13 am
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What sometimes happens with insulfrog points and slips, is that a wheel that might be a bit wide in the tyre can cause a short at the common crossing. Hopefully, if all of your stock is modern enough, this shouldn't be a problem. If you do get shorts you can modify them so that the point blades are always at the same polarity as their adjacent stock rails.



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 Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2021 09:07 am
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Barry Miltenburg
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Petermac wrote: As Barry said, they do need to be laid flat but so do all points really .................. :roll:.

Peter - I totally agree but found that the single slips were very fussy about being flat.  The slightest uneveness gave problems - perhaps exagerated by the slim base of the Code 75 track??  The first one I laid was a pain until I realised that there was a bit of stray ballast under one sleeper end - that's all it took.

Barry

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 Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2021 12:37 pm
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I find the double-slips are OK if laid slightly less than flat but of course no working parts of any point or crossing is really at its best when also trying to cope with changes of gradient or the warping of boards over time.  

For insulfrog crossings a power feed to the outer (curved) rail is about as complex as it gets.  The instructions are on the pack for Peco points.   You may have to insulate the rails as they lead away depending on your track plan but that's not a big job either.  A simple switch, push-button or even a push-to-make for brief contact will do the job at the control end.  



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 Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2021 12:59 pm
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Sorry to be late with my reply Michael - spent the day grass cutting for a friend who can't get out to his holiday house here at present !

I had a look at my double slips - both code 100 insulfrogs and, as Rick said, just a wire to each outer rail in the middle of the slip - just as you would do for ordinary track - 1 + and the other minus depending on how you've wired your layout.  Mine is + to the front rail and - to the rear rail.

No insulated joiners required unless you have an electro frog point entering the slip in which case, both "V" rails ( on the incoming point) would need insulating in any case.  I don't think you'd need them if your points are also dead frog but I'm not sure about that one ....

The modern slips are quite fine rail-wise whereas the old type were just hefty great lumps of metal and the whole loco could probably disappear into the frog.



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 Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2021 04:46 pm
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Thank you all for your help and wisdom.  I think I can go ahead and order one now and see how I get on.
Michael



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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 04:36 pm
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The single slip has arrived and I have studied the instructions and checked out the DCC concepts website for wiring advice.  I will be using the ip digital motor, which can automatically change the frog polarity and I can link them together so that I can't throw the points the wrong way.  All of this I understand.  Which should of course be the tricky bit.
What I don't know is where I actually solder the frog wire to the track.  Obviously with a normal point, the wire is already attached and it is just a case of soldering a green wire to it and attaching it to the motor, but on the single slip there is no such wire.  I can see fitted wires from the outside rails  (the long curved rail) running to the frog, but I don't know where I am actually supposed to add my frog wire.  I shall attach a picture of one end of the slip.....




Do I have to remove any of these wires (like you do with a normal point) for DCC?  Where should I attach my frog wire?  It looks like I could do a lot of damage with my soldering iron!!

Help!

Michael



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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 06:41 pm
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Headmaster wrote: The single slip has arrived and I have studied the instructions and checked out the DCC concepts website for wiring advice.  I will be using the ip digital motor, which can automatically change the frog polarity and I can link them together so that I can't throw the points the wrong way.  All of this I understand.  Which should of course be the tricky bit.
What I don't know is where I actually solder the frog wire to the track.  Obviously with a normal point, the wire is already attached and it is just a case of soldering a green wire to it and attaching it to the motor, but on the single slip there is no such wire.  I can see fitted wires from the outside rails  (the long curved rail) running to the frog, but I don't know where I am actually supposed to add my frog wire.  I shall attach a picture of one end of the slip.....




Do I have to remove any of these wires (like you do with a normal point) for DCC?  Where should I attach my frog wire?  It looks like I could do a lot of damage with my soldering iron!!

Help!

Michael

This may be a wild guess but there doesnt appear to be a frog wire on this shot  Can you photo the other end…..it is a  single slip



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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 06:47 pm
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It's the same both ends, John.  It's a brand new insulfrog slip, but it says you have to change the frog polarity, which is isolated from the rest of the track.
Michael



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 Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2021 07:39 pm
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Headmaster wrote: It's the same both ends, John.  It's a brand new insulfrog slip, but it says you have to change the frog polarity, which is isolated from the rest of the track.
Michael

Well I am stuck I am afraid……..there is a new design which is what I think you have. Unless somebody more knowledgeable than I (Sol?) comes along I think I would try and contact Peco



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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2021 12:28 am
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Petermac
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I thought the whole point of insulfrogs is that there is no need to worry about frog polarity - being "insulated", there isn't any polarity - they're "dead frog", i.e. no electricity there at all .....


Now I really am confused.  I wonder if Peco were similarly confused when they either called it "insulfrog" when it wasn't or suggested changing a non-existant polarity ......:hmm

I think I'd clarify the situation with Peco Technical Services Michael.  This just doesn't make sense to my simple brain.




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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2021 12:54 am
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Just another thought Michael - in my experience, it's not unheard of for Peco to supply faulty points.

On 2 occasions, I was nearly driven insane trying to make brand new points operate electrically as they ought to have done,  only to eventually discover the factory fitted wiring was at fault.  On both occasions, a link wire was missing.

Doing some research on your behalf, it does seem these insulfrog slips are not automatically insulating  - don't ask me how or why - it doesn't make sense to me - but they should, apparently, have a frog dropper wire..........

Maybe yours is indeed faulty.....

Both my double slips are self-insulating and, as I said earlier, there are no insulated joiners except in the case of an electrofrog "V" feeding into the slip and power is fed only to the two outer rails.  They must have changed the design since my version.



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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2021 03:20 am
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I do not have any insulfrogs to look at, so please excuse a potentially daft question. Are the frogs metal or plastic? 

I have an impression in my mind of dark coloured frogs on old Peco points and if these are not metal, a wire connected to it wouldn't do much.

Best,

Bill



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 Posted: Fri Jun 11th, 2021 05:41 am
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To my knowledge, Insulfrogs don't have or need frog wires.



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