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Bobby098
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 hi all , glad to take up this hobby again after a few years out with health problems ( heart attack and kidney problems ) it was along road to recovery but I got there … so gents need your help with wiring up this plan its 6ft x 20" …its   dc with twin controller n gauge ... 1) could i run two trains ? if so how can i wire it up or the best place to put the wires 2) is it worth isolating track A and B some people on here know that I build a few small layouts and have help me in the pass and know my knowledge on electrics is a big no ……… so again need your help    cheers bob 


Last edited on Wed Aug 7th, 2019 10:04 am by Bobby098

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Hi Bob. Really sorry to hear you've been through a lot over recent times and great you are on the mend and back into the layout groove. Yes, I remember your small n gauge layouts and the help Trevor and Sol gave you on the electrics ... great source of knowledge those guys .... also recall the excellent scenics you created.
I'm also running DC, N Gauge, two trains and two controllers (at least I will when its finally complete) and would say for sure you can do the same on your planned layout, isolating the track in places will be essential though. If I'm not mistaken you could even have Common Control, whereby you can switch one controller to have control over a train throughout the whole layout ... or switch back so two controllers can control separate trains over different isolated parts of the layout - you have some flexibility there but depends on what you operating needs are.

I'm sure Trevor or Sol will jump in quick to give you a rough electric design plan for you .... but if not I'll have a stab at it based on what I learnt from them. Confidence is slowing growing :-) 

Great to have you back
Paul     

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Hi Bob

This looks very interesting and a candidate for Cab Control - a sectionalised layout with 2 controllers and each section switchable to either controller.  Happy to pitch in with some ideas - can you confirm that the right hand exit is to a storage/fiddle yard?
Welcome to the "DC Club" - we need some more members!!! :mutley :mutley

Barry

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hi Paul and Barry and thanks for the reply . to the the question Barry I am going to add a fiddle yard,  I would be grateful for any help or drawings of the wiring …. cheers bob 

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Bob, have a look at post #9 of one of your previous layouts
http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=12852&forum_id=21&page=1#p227065


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Hello Bob,
Questions?
Are you using Insulfrog or Electrofrog points... yes it will make  a difference!

Are you using a Gaugemaster throttle which can use common rail or a H&M Duette style ?

As Paul outlines, yes we (Sol and myself) are happy to help and I am really pleased that Paul thinks he would be able to handle it himself with diagrams... (well done mate by the way!). I have only just come on this thread so maybe I have missed something but glad to see you on deck after a list of ills... a few of us in that situation here!

When I get the feedback, the diagram will be forthcoming!

Cheers from Australia

Trevor

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hi Trevor/ Sol   yes its me again ( lol )   you help me a few times with you drawings much appreciated.. ok 
this plan is a old layout my grandson saw in a magazine when in hospital  it was 00 gauge and call Evenstow he love it so I said I will build it but in N gauge so he I am now asking for your help in wiring it ….. 
the points are;  all Insulfrog I have a gaugemaster D track controller .. maybe 2 trains running is to much ? or should I just have one train were he can maybe leave in a  sidings and run another ,  like isolating some track like area A and B . the plan downbelow is the one he loves cant let he down .. I know people don't like copying but its never going to be exactly the same ……    cheers bob 

 

Last edited on Thu Aug 8th, 2019 06:05 am by Bobby098

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Hello Bob,
Sight unseen I made a diagram which is SCHEMATICALLY identical to the plan but more generously proportioned.



It is using common rail which is possible with a Gaugemaster and using Single Pole Double Throw (Centre Off) switches. The Insulated rail joiners are on a consistent side of the track which I have put on the "South" side of the rails.  I may have overkilled with the number of blocks but you will be able to operate two trains very independently from  other...

See what you think!

Regards

Trevor

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sorry  I am lost .. take it  the blue boxes are switches and the wire in the middle that  goes to the track go the the live side of the track ? the yellow and blue that go to the controller 1 and 2  where plus or -   and the light blue where ? do the switches control the points as well … sorry total confused …. any simpler way of doing this maybe run 1 train …and isolate the sidings …..  again sorry about this electric talk is total no no  need simple drawings   lol     bob 

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Bob,
The diagram shows the underside where you would attach the wires on the switch and in fact is PHYSICALLY represented by one of these - or any other shape switch!
The controller wires can be either positive or negative depending on the direction of the controller.  A schematic is  simpler diagram in that you don't scale the lengths of wire but everything is relative to each other.  I have not worried about point motors ... an overlay of them  would confuse the issue for a number of us here!

Hope this helps!

Trevor


Last edited on Thu Aug 8th, 2019 08:12 am by xdford

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one more question ,   do I need to get more switches  for the points ?   cheers bob 

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Hi Bob,

This looks like a slightly modified Time Saver, the DC wiring of which was relatively simple. No blocks to worry about. But, (and it's a big but), only one engine.


Now DCC would be a lot easier, no toggle switches, black to one rail, red to the other,  repeat as required going from one end to the other, no blocks necessary (power sectors in DCC). Running trains on a big DC system is relatively easy, once you get small with lots of points (6 in your case over 6 feet) the blocks (independently controlled sections that you switch from dead to live as the engine moves through them) become small and many. It's all a question of time spent on changing blocks and points for 2 engines. How many operators? I would say 3, one for each engine and a switch/block operator to keep track of who is where and when. Plus one for the fiddle yard.

With DCC you could run 4 engines/trains at once with no blocks and just 2 wires to the track.

Just  saying....


Nigel


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Bobby098 wrote: one more question ,   do I need to get more switches  for the points ?   cheers bob 
Bob,

No!  Look up your previous layout thread and you will see that we can make it with probe and contact for the points!

You will have to work out your control panel size!

Regards

Trevor

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ok thanks for your help cheers bob 

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BCDR wrote: Hi Bob,

This looks like a slightly modified Time Saver, the DC wiring of which was relatively simple. No blocks to worry about. But, (and it's a big but), only one engine.


Now DCC would be a lot easier, no toggle switches, black to one rail, red to the other,  repeat as required going from one end to the other, no blocks necessary (power sectors in DCC). Running trains on a big DC system is relatively easy, once you get small with lots of points (6 in your case over 6 feet) the blocks (independently controlled sections that you switch from dead to live as the engine moves through them) become small and many. It's all a question of time spent on changing blocks and points for 2 engines. How many operators? I would say 3, one for each engine and a switch/block operator to keep track of who is where and when. Plus one for the fiddle yard.

With DCC you could run 4 engines/trains at once with no blocks and just 2 wires to the track.

Just  saying....


Nigel



You will end up down the pig farm Nigel trying to hijack Barrys DC convert :mutley :mutley :mutley

Brian

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lol ok gents,  I am saying with dc  I will go with one train with isolated side tracks to park a train think this is  more of a shunting layout     thanks guys  cheers bob 

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Hi Bob, 

Sensible choice. I was just pointing out the alternative - one on/off switch.  I am full of admiration for those who use DC. No judgement. 

Nigel

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NO DC HIJACKERS PLEASE!!   :lol: :lol: 



Bob

I came up with this before seeing your trackplan post - its a beauty and should make a super model.

The layout is divided into 2 basic sections - the red and green.

Each section is fed (feed and return) through a DPDT switch - thats a Double Pole (two contacts) Double Throw (two options other than "off").   They look like the ones Trevor posted a photo of and they have 6 contacts on the back.  More of this later.

Each section (red or green) is fed into the centre pair of contacts on the switch.  One controller is connected to the top pair and the other controller to the bottom pair. 

Now you have "Cab Control" - put the switch in the centre position and the track section is dead.  Push the switch UP and controller A has control of that section.  Push it down and controller B has control of that section.

Thus you can have controller A dealing with an arrival or departure (on the red section) whilst B shunts (on the green section).

Note that one controller will need to have both red and green sections to run round the train.  This is not such a bad thing as it is highly unlikely that on a station of this size, two engines would be allowed to move together if one is running round and occupying the platform and loop roads.

This is not affected by live or dead frogs, hand or electrically operated points, or whatever standards of track you employ.

The yellow section is isolated from the red section byb a single insulated fishplate on the FEED side.  Take a wire from the red feed through a STSP (Single Pole Single Throw) switch - also known as an on-off switch! - and connect the other side of the switch to the yellow section.  When the switch is up, the yellow section gets no power so an engine can be isolated.  Put the switch down and the loco can move.  This arrangement can be simplified by isolating the engine by setting the point against it BUT with an isolated section, you can hold 2 engines on the shed road - one isolated by the switch and the other by the point.

You can get even more clever by doing the same isolating trick with the platform headshunt - this isolates the loco that just arrived and allows a second engine into the red section to withdraw the stock, either as a departure or to shunt.  This can be useful if the platform is not overlong and you don't have enough room to run round the train in the loop.

DPDT and SPST switches are available on eBay or similar.  The "sub-miniature" types will handle the power and voltage ratings we experience so there is no need to buy large. 

Hope this helps - ask if I have confused you.  (My proposed 24x16ft layout will be wired exactly the same way as this demonstrating that cab control can be used for large and small layouts with equal success.)

Looking forward to seeing things develop

Barry

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Bob

One last thought as I read through my post - make the storage area a separate section - this allows an operator to assemble trains without the possibility of someone turning a controller and his trains running off!!

Barry

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Bob - with apologies for even more information!!  I have been tinkering with this and offer a really flash version that the DCC boys will use against me to prove that my adherance to DC is tantamount to madness.



So the blue section is the storage yard.  Red is the approach line that can be used by either controller to bring a train into/out of either the platform or the loop road.  The break between the red and the purple should be long enough to allow a loco to come off shed without going into the purple section and this should also be clear of any stock/a train in the platform.  The yellow isolating section works as before.

The purple section is the platform and allows a train to stand isolated whilst a loco runs onto/off shed.

The orange section is the headshunt isolator as described earlier and the green section is the yard.

Each section has a DPDT switch allowing it to be allocated to either controller A or B.  With this version, A can take a loco from the headshunt into the loop where the water crane awaits (using orange and green sections).  Meanwhile, B uses yellow, red and purple to bring a loco from the shed to couple up to the stock in the platform and then gains blue to depart.

If all this sounds like the sort of thing you want  to do, I will happily produce a detailed wiring schematic for you.

If this makes you go "two wires to the track" DCC, I don't blame you!!!!  Only joking :lol: :lol:

Barry

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hi barry and thanks,   I like the idea of the first plan the top line   red  and bottom green running 2 trains also the yellow section  …   its getting the nerve to do it  lol  my electrics  knowledge stinks   cheers bob    ..    

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Bob

Here is the basic wiring schematic for cab control and an isolated section.

Have a practice with a few bits of track first - its easier to see in the flesh sometimes and you can trace where the power is going.  I have ignored the 16vAC or 240v power in connections to the controller here.



Note that the red and black wires from the DPDT switch central connections go to the feed and return for the track.  The red wires for the isolating section go to the feed side only.

If you want some help, let me know and I will flesh out the whole schematic and stick in the post to the West Country.

Happy wiring!!

Barry

Last edited on Thu Aug 8th, 2019 03:03 pm by Barry Miltenburg

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I think you know what I am going to say   lol    I will pay for the postage   I can then take the plan  it to the work shed cheers bob .…. 

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Hello Bob and Barry,
Without trying to create an issue, and having now seen the diagram and thinking of possible operations, I feel that the blocks can be cut down to 6 switches.

My own design was on the following premises

1)  Bob has professed to not being terribly confident wiring wise -  using common rail saves half the wiring and make fault finding easier
2)  Bob has either two controllers or a gaugemaster which allows for common rail use
3)  The control panel will have a little more room to work around.

The single pole switch (preferably centre off) could also then be a block on/block off if it is only a case of one engine in steam.  

Bob, I can understand the trepidation you have - I have similar trepidation to restoring parts of my own layout, let alone adding extra signals etc for a variety of reasons - however it is your railway and up to you to decide the way you want to go!

Cheers

Trevor

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hi all I dont want to upset anyone on here , everyone of you have help me in the past , trevor you help more then anyone on here all I am after is a easy way of wiring this layout my grandson and I wanted two trains but now I think 1 train with isolate side track to maybe park one up  and get another on the layout as well ….. again thank all for the help  bob 

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Hi Bob,
I do not want to upset anyone here either -  nor would I try to dictate my way or the highway.  I am pleased that  both Paul and Barry were prepared to have a go at helping you with Paul drawing (pardon the pun) on the lessons with his layout which he picked up on very quickly!  None of us are forever so that passing of knowledge is important to me but not quite so much even that as the willingness to impart it.

However there are more ways to skin the proverbial cat with regards to wiring. Barry did make a suggestion which I could reduce the wiring involved so I will make another post with that modification in mind using his diagram. Ultimately you have to go with what you are comfortable with doing - as I say - it is YOUR railway!

Drawing to follow!

Cheers

Trevor

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Cheers

Trevor

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Good idea Trevor - its easier to solder to a switch terminal than it is to the track!!

Barry

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I have my plan so now down to me and hope I can do my first cab control thanks for the drawings and help... this is what I like about this forum  ….  you get great help  .. I will keep you posted    cheers bob :doublethumb

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hi  well I done it, lol   my first  cab control  but my grandson nor I can get on with it   so I will try something more easier for him  like I said maybe isolation sections thanks for all the help about how to do cab control   ….. picture below 

  

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How old is the grandson?
One of my mates has a grandson that has just turned 4 and can uncouple Kadee with the little uncoupling rod & drive DCC trains after selecting the loco without any problems. He even knows the turnouts & the panels for same and watches for the signals.

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If he's like me Sol, he could be well into his 70's and still struggle with electrics .................................

Red to red
Black to black
Blue to bits ...........................

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well we had another go at it today and we both like it now,  :doublethumb it works great , took a little while to get used to the switches but he did it and now he wants to keep it....  so now down to the best part for me starting the scenery  like to thank barry and xdford for there help ... cheers bob

Last edited on Tue Aug 27th, 2019 02:12 pm by Bobby098

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YEA!!   :Happy :Happy :Happy

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lol cheers Barry ..  THANKS FOR THE DRAWING  :cheers

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Good to hear Bob - looking forward to seeing the scenics which you very adept at ... I'll be looking for tips as my scenics start shortly once I've weathered the ballast, fixed the platforms to the baseboard and mounted the scratch built road bridge and road which I am actually pretty proud of as a first attempt.
cheers
Paul

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Hi Trevor, Bob, Barry and Ron.  With the endless possibilities on a DC Layout, I am sitting here reading this thread and thinking “ why on earth, apart from the sound, did I bother with DCC ? Maybe, just maybe, I will have another go at a DC layout, if only to give my Pugs a run out. But once I have finished my three DCC planks.     Best wishes Kevin 

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Hello Kevin,
Why not just have a switch that you can select either DC or DCC?  If you don't mind a one engine in steam running session, all your planks could be so converted and easily so!  Having said that, could you fit an N scale decoder to a pug? OK you won't have sound but do you need it?

If you need a wiring diagram, let me know but I would think it fairly straight forward,

Cheers

Trevor

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Hi Trevor.  Thank you for your reply. I have enough fears about converting one of my OO Gauge Pugs , let alone N scale. The way my Planks are wired for DCC, when I want to run a DC Loco I hook two wires onto the bus, but with Electrofrog points and a bus, does that not change pure DC wiring??? . Besides that I have found an online L&Y Pug conversion with fantastic DCC sound, but cannot find how to get in touch with the “builder “ ?    Best wishes Kevin 

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Hello Kevin,
What I was inferring is that the smaller N scale decoders could fit into the space available as long as the current was not an issue.  I have a Caledonian Pug which elder daughter sent as a birthday present from England when she lived there. The current draw on the Mabuchi style motor should be OK but I have a Canon motor - in fact I have a few which I will one day fit to the pug to make it a smoother runner at the low end. 

Personally, I have no intention of going DCC but two locos I have bought in recent times have chips in them and I did have two chips from Hattons which worked very well with straight DC - they ran very smoothly at the club - but did not seem like my throttles much so I have the chips spare for now!

Check the current draw of the Pug and see if it is in the range of the Chip. There should be enough room but maybe not for a speaker!

Cheers

Trevor

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Bob

The joys of railway modelling and a forum such as this one - a few posts ago you said that your knowledge of electrics "stinks" but here you are with a wired and working cab control layout.

Happy days.

Now its our turn to pinch ideas from you regarding scenery!

Barry


                 

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