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Need measurements & drawings for Cowans Sheldon 30-ton Breakdown Crane - Prototype Information. - The Prototype. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2018 10:11 am
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ZeldaTheSwordsman
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Yep, the Thomas-obsessed one strikes again! My scratchbuilding ambitions extend to creating a Breakdown Train that duplicates the NWR's, and specifically as depicted in Thomas The Tank Engine and Friends. The cranes modelled there are a pair of Cowans Sheldon 30-tonners. I have managed to find photos here and there of this make of crane, but no drawings or measurements. And so I turn to the good people here in the hopes of finding drawings with measurements, or failing that the measurements themselves (and as many as possible), even if they're just measurements of a model. It'll at very least get me in the right ballpark to craft a passable replica, I hope.
Thanks in advance



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 Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2018 09:21 pm
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col.stephens
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Railway Breakdown Cranes (Vol.1) by Peter Tatlow has a drawing, with measurements, on page page 91.


Terry

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 Posted: Sat Mar 24th, 2018 09:52 pm
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BCDR
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Hi Brendan,

Over here $36. Cheaper probably to get an illustrated Thomas book and just scratch/bash build from relative measurements. Or just watch it on Amazon.

Nigel



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 Posted: Sun Mar 25th, 2018 01:40 am
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Brossard
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Well there is this:

http://www.hattons.co.uk/107213/Bachmann_Branchline_38_800_45_ton_Ransomes_and_Rapier_crane_in_SR_black/StockDetail.aspx

Not the one you're after and the price :shock:

John



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 Posted: Sun Mar 25th, 2018 01:51 am
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ZeldaTheSwordsman
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Nigel, there are several flaws in your suggestion.
1. The Breakdown Train's appearances in the books were all in the early ones illustrated by C. Reginald Dalby, an incompetent hack who made little attempt to be realistic or consistent in his drawings of the trains, especially not the rolling stock. So trying to get measurements from those? Useless.
2. While I do have photos of the show models and of real-life examples of the cranes that it would be feasible to use, extracting relative measurements still requires a known measurement to start with. The length or width of the boom, the length of the gearbox, something like that. I don't have any known measurements to work with. I would also have to teach myself how to gauge relative measurements, if it comes to it...

I admit I was somewhat hoping someone here would have a model they'd be willing to take s ruler to every which way.

EDIT:
Brossard, not only is that completely the wrong model of crane, I asked for drawings and/or measurements. Not a product listing. So your linking that was completely unhelpful. Anti-helpful, almost.

If I didn't have my heart set on the Cowans Sheldon crane I'd just freelance-scratchbuild or Anglicize a couple junker American cranes and have done with it. But nooo, I have to torture myself by being picky.

On a happier note, I have found some confirmed measurements of certain of the model engines from the show, including Thomas himself. And so I should be able to use those to work out the approximate measurements of the Breakdown Train as Nigel suggested.



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 Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2018 02:31 am
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BCDR
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Hi Brendan,

Now given most of the locomotive stock on the island talks with a Liverpudlian accent  and has faces, accurate measurements may not be the best way forward, or even in the spirit of the good Reverend. Most folks I know who do Thomas and friends just bash a couple of Hornby 75 tonners for their jibs and chassis', and scratch build the sheds.  The point about the books is that they are not intended to be accurate representations, just something the children will relate to. The television series, especially season one, has a lot of relative dimensions. Scratch building those jibs should be easy (I've done various over the years).

These cranes were usually built to the buyers specifications, and were heavily modified over their life span (I think they date to the turn of the 20th century). As John said, an accurate model is a lot of money.

I am assuming you are going the 4mm route, not the 10 mm one.

Nigel






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 Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2018 04:13 am
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Brendan, while this is not what you are really after but have read anyway
http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=13302&forum_id=150



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 Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2018 02:01 pm
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ZeldaTheSwordsman
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BCDR wrote: Hi Brendan,

Now given most of the locomotive stock on the island talks with a Liverpudlian accent  and has faces, accurate measurements may not be the best way forward, or even in the spirit of the good Reverend. Most folks I know who do Thomas and friends just bash a couple of Hornby 75 tonners for their jibs and chassis', and scratch build the sheds.  The point about the books is that they are not intended to be accurate representations, just something the children will relate to. The television series, especially season one, has a lot of relative dimensions. Scratch building those jibs should be easy (I've done various over the years).

These cranes were usually built to the buyers specifications, and were heavily modified over their life span (I think they date to the turn of the 20th century). As John said, an accurate model is a lot of money.

I am assuming you are going the 4mm route, not the 10 mm one.

Nigel




Of course I'm going in the 4mm route.
Wilbert and Christopher strove for railway realism and authenticity in their stories, and did desire some measure of accuracy and consistency in the illustrations. Henry's rebuild was in fact done to force then-illustrator C. Reginald Dalby to be consistent by making him match an actual loco class reference photos could be sent of. And in fact, criticism from the Reverend over his inaccurate proportions (Specifically, referring to Percy as drawn in Percy the Small Engine as looking like "a green caterpillar with red stripes") was what led to Dalby quitting!

The TV series did have a lot of relative dimensions with the engines early on, between referencing Dalby's inconsistent illustrations and the need to make the engines fit on Marklin chassis. However, the rolling stock was for the most part built from Tenmille kits rather than being scratchbuilt. It was sometimes modified (new roofs in the case of Annie, Clarabel, and the 3 other coaches like them, Lionel-style shortening of the SR Maunsell coaches, etc), but it still had definitive prototypes that the kits matched as best as Tenmille could make them. This is how prototypes could even be identified for them (rolling stock as drawn by Dalby was decidedly toylike and vague, with the exception of Henrietta).



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 Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2018 06:01 pm
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Longchap
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I read the 5th post above, early this morning, which criticised first one helpful response and then with the later ‘EDIT’, seemingly attacked yet someone else for offering friendly comment. Nigel’s witty response did get me grinning though, with admiration for the restraint showed.
 
As no one seems willing to mention the elephant in the room in this thread, I’ll simply express a certain sadness that such rudeness should be expressed so forcefully and totally unnecessarily to fellow modellers.
 
So many people go out of their way on this forum to give help and provide useful related material and links, so such disrespect has no place here. Not all opinions may give the OP their dream answer, so one needs to show respect and continue to play nicely. Only then will Robert continue to be pleased.
 
My glass remains however, always half full !

Best,
 
Bill



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 Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2018 06:31 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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I apologise, Bill.

Normally I'm alert to rudeness, but I completely missed this one.    :Red Card

Sorry, Nigel.  :oops:

Brendan

You owe Nigel an apology.



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 Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2018 06:51 pm
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Longchap
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Thanks Max.

Don't forget John as well Brendan.

Bill



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At 6'4'', Bill is a tall chap, then again, when horizontal he is rather long and people often used to trip over him! . . . and so a nickname was born :)

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 Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2018 07:00 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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Sorry, Bill.

Got me John's and Nigel's mixed up.  :oops:

It is 5.00 a.m. here.

Brendan, you owe John an apology.

And I need coffee.  :lol:



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 Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2018 07:00 pm
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col.stephens
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Brendan, am I missing something here?  I'm curious to know why you want to model Thomas, etc.  Are you doing it for children/ grandchildren?  If you are modelling in 4mm scale, why not just go out and buy the Hornby models?


Terry

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 Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2018 03:47 am
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BCDR
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I thought I would let the comments speak for themselves. My sentiments 're Brendan's comments are the same as Bill's. This forum has a reputation for being helpful, occasionally the advice and suggestions offered are not appreciated. Can't win them all.

Nigel



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 Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2018 05:30 am
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ZeldaTheSwordsman
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I'm sorry, Nigel and John... I feel like I should perhaps go back on hiatus after the way I treated you.

Terry: I'm modelling for myself, because I happen to be die-hard Thomas fan. There's a few reasons why I don't go out and get the Hornby models. One is that I live in the USA. You generally can't go out and get Hornby models of any sort (Thomas or not) in the shops here. I have actually imported Duck (bought new from E-Hattons) as well as Thomas, Annie, and Clarabel (purchased secondhand from eBay as a gift for me). The exchange rate and the international shipping make it somewhat costly, and I'd rather not have to do that whenever I want any British rolling stock at all. I'd rather save it for locos and particularly special rolling stock.
There is the Bachmann Thomas range that's sold domestically, but there's a limited selection of rolling stock and the prices on it are artificially jacked up nowadays (something I call licenseflation) so that even a 7-plank open wagon is costly. So like with Hornby, it's something I'd more reserve for getting major characters like the engines. Because, well, next reason...
I have limited disposable income because my only job is a seasonal one at the spring Renaissance Faire. This is another factor in my deciding to scratchbuild where I can on the rolling stock front.
The final reason in this particular case is that I have my heart set on the particular make of crane used for the television series models, the Cowans Sheldon 30-ton breakdown crane. It's not a commonly-modelled crane, at least not in 4mm, and I haven't been able to find drawings of it or its relatives. Ransomes and Rapier cranes? Yes. Cowans Sheldon? No.

I could save myself a lot of headache by just freelancing cranes or else anglicising some junker American ones, but as I said before I'm torturing myself by being picky.



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