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Passed Driver
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Hi All. I am now the proud owner of a Hornby M7 in LSWR livery, hoping to ugrade my layout? to an earlier period (than, Southern or BR(S) ) at certain times, as the nostalgia mood takes me, but, I have hit a snag(not a sausage) It has been suggested by an enthusiast that my Hornby M7 " will not pull the skin off a rice pudding" , meaning that it will not pull a load, and there is another problem:???: Which carriages would be suitable, and which manufacturer can supply.suitable carriages in LSWR livery. Even if I go for Kit building? Who makes the Carriages?
Another thing it has been suggested that the problem with the loco is weight distribution which causes the wheels to lose tractive effort or traction, as you would put it ?:oops: Even if I run my M7 as a goods train ?
there are not many suitable wagons available . Help, please advise with printable answers. all the best. Kevin


Update, after my comments on the Hornby M7, based on hearsay I got around to putting my M7 through its "paces" so to speak, very slowly, almost a crawl because I read one thread about the motor overheating? and that is not for me. Good news it can move four Hornby carriages, I did this on DC with the wires clipped on the rails, until that is I investigate the "Space issue" as far as the fitting of a decoder goes. So that seems I will not be sending the M7 to Paul for a sound decoder to be fitted .Because in another thread that I read "on needs to remove one of the weights to fit the decoder in the tank space, now that would really cause a loss of traction.
I think it pays to read and watch all the reviews. all the best. Kevin

Last edited on Thu Sep 22nd, 2016 03:44 pm by Passed Driver

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I looked up a picture of this loco - beautiful!  My friend has one and it is really top notch.  How many coaches do you want to pull anyway?  As it's a branchline loco, it would not look out of place to be pulling two - compo and brake 3rd.

You've done the same as another friend of mine who bought the pre grouping version of the T9 for which coaches do not exist.  I note that Hornby do have an ex LSWR coach in SR livery.

He went out and bought the Roxey kits of a rake and then I stupidly put my hand up to make them for him.  It took me ages but I got them done.  LSWR coaches do look very good:

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=10043&forum_id=62&page=4

Also check this:

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1520.html

In hindsight it would have been simpler for him to sell the LSWR T9 and buy a SR version.

I wish the manufacturers would plan this stuff better and at least have something for these beautiful pre-grouping locos to pull.

John


 

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Hi John. Thank you for your reply. The truth of the matter is, I bought it from a club member for a reasonable price. It is true, two carriages would be most likely, it's that I didn't think much about the livery, it is a model of the Loco 245 in the National Railway Museum and fair handsome it is.
I have looking through the small ads. and online:???: And as you say "I wish that manufacturers would think these things through."
I guess that I will have to see of I can find a suitable Shut and Cut model or models at swap meets. all the best. Kevin

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Hi John. I have just read your thread on the paint job for LSWR coaching stock. You did a very good job there. I would haven't an idea what I was looking for, the LSWR seemed to be really old fashioned ? Silly me I should have realised, but , that period looks even more attractive to model
Hansom cabs and all , gas lighting, smog brilliant all the best. Kevin

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I dunno, I suppose you and I must seem old fashioned to many.

As you will have noticed, it's the livery that's the challenge.  Building the coach kits was relatively straightforward.  Finishing is where the rubber meets the road and can ruin the job.  I'd much rather have RTR.

Still, you never know, you might find some well built coaches with the right livery somewhere...and pigs might fly :roll:.

If you want an M7 hauled passenger train, put this one in a display case and get a SR liveried loco to go with the very nice Hornby pull push set.  I think you'll have much less stress.

Like this:  http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/br-pull-push-coach-pack-r4534c.html

John

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I have never owned a Hornby M7 but before Hornby re-introduced their model I had built examples from Finecast Kits.
In order to get them running correctly I have always had to adjust the springing of the bogie so that both drivers are in contact with the track when running. This is a matter of trial and error and experimentation. This is something you may have to consider with the Hornby version. You may have to consider adding a little weight to boot. Weight was never a problem with a white metal kit. Do have fun!
The only current supplier for carriages of the period you wish to model are Roxey Mouldings. If you do go down this route then you will find the proprietor David Hammersley the most congenial of gentlemen and very helpful.
When checking out his website do check out Southwark Bridge Models which are now produced by David. Using these kits you can build up sets of 4 x 6 wheel vehicles that were known as block sets. These are most appropriate to run behind an M7 in LSWR days. The good news is that the kits go together very well. Their designer the late Ivan Smith prided himself on the fact that his kits were correct and went together with ease.
http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/90/4mm-scale-/-00-gauge-southwark-bridge-carriage-wagon-kits-/

As a reference work none is finer than the series by Gordon Weddel and The South Western Circle is worth its weight as an enthusiast society.

http://www.lswr.org/

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Hi john. Yet more info, Roxey do a "4C 28 LSWR 30ft 6W Full Brake,".
Whatever use that is? by itself. I would like to try that, but as I said, I do have a load of kits in the pipeline, I had better do some of the kits I have already, before I buy anymore. As for buying another M7, is concerned I already have a Hornby Push Pull set and I purchased an O2 from Kernow model rail centre to work it on the branch. all the best Kevin

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That would be this I believe:



The 6 wheeled suspension design in the kit is rubbish.  I redesigned it work better.  I would do it differently today.

If you get one, there are some build pictures in my workbench thread.

Phoenix paints do the right colours.  http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/precision-paints/railway-colours/colours-for-the-pre-grouping-companies-pre-1923/london-south-western-railway.html

I made lining transfers using Powerpoint, I'd be happy to email the file to you.

You will need the HMRS Pressfix sheet.

A lot of work though.

John

Correction, the picture above is of the 4C7, but looking at the small sketch on the site it looks the same.  Even the diagram # is the same.


 

Last edited on Sun Sep 18th, 2016 07:58 pm by Brossard

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Brossard wrote: I dunno, I suppose you and I must seem old fashioned to many.

As you will have noticed, it's the livery that's the challenge.  Building the coach kits was relatively straightforward.  Finishing is where the rubber meets the road and can ruin the job.  I'd much rather have RTR.

Still, you never know, you might find some well built coaches with the right livery somewhere...and pigs might fly :roll:.

If you want an M7 hauled passenger train, put this one in a display case and get a SR liveried loco to go with the very nice Hornby pull push set.  I think you'll have much less stress.

Like this:  http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/br-pull-push-coach-pack-r4534c.html

John
 Hi John.
If it is  reasonably accurate combination anyone is after, you would need a BR liveried M7 to go with the Maunsell p-p coach pack - they were only converted to p-p working in the late 1950s and as such, were never in SR liveries.

Currently there are no RTR passenger coaches on the market suitable for pre-grouping liveries, although Bachmann will be producing their 'birdcage' coaches in SECR livery.

The Hornby ex-LSWR coaches are modelled as modified during Southern Railway days (1930s), where the bodies were lengthened and placed on different underframes.

The other RTR stock under way is the Kernow Model Railways LSWR 'gate' stock, although even with that stock, I'm not aware of any pre-grouping liveries being made available (or whether they were modified, making them unsuitable for the earlier liveries).

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Brossard wrote: That would be this I believe:



The 6 wheeled suspension design in the kit is rubbish.  I redesigned it work better.  I would do it differently today.

If you get one, there are some build pictures in my workbench thread.

Phoenix paints do the right colours.  http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/precision-paints/railway-colours/colours-for-the-pre-grouping-companies-pre-1923/london-south-western-railway.html

I made lining transfers using Powerpoint, I'd be happy to email the file to you.

You will need the HMRS Pressfix sheet.

A lot of work though.

John

Correction, the picture above is of the 4C7, but looking at the small sketch on the site it looks the same.  Even the diagram # is the same.


 
 
I think I might have one of these to build, myself! I'm sure I have a similar kit buried on my shelves; I am also sure it has plastic sides, making it one of the earlier kits produced. Like the brass Roxey LSWR coaches I have, it may be a considerable while before I attempt to build any of them!

Every time I see pictures of models like yours, I get a rush of enthusiasm that says go and start building the kits. Then I look at the kits and put them back in the "too hard" basket. :D Yours looks really nice. 

:cheers

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Yes I made the point earlier about manufacturers dropping the ball wrt pre group liveried coaches.  It seems pointless to go to the trouble of producing these lovely pre-group locos only to have nothing for them to pull.  Then again, I don't think there are all that many pre-group layouts anyway.  I imagine that many owners of pre-group locos pretend that they are preserved.

Good that there are some pre-group diagrams are being produced.

You can add the pull-push thingy on the smokebox with a bit of plastic tube, wire, a decent photo and cleverness.

I wonder if there's much of a market for pre-grouping these days.  I read somewhere (I'm always doing that) that the peak of the bell curve for modelling interest tends to be 40 years ago, and this is always moving to the right.  By that rationale, most layouts should be based on 1986 BR.

John

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As I said I stupidly raised my hand to build these thinking they'd be interesting.  That they were but my interest waxed and waned and I finally had to force myself to get them done for the deadline.  I should have told him to buy the SR liveried T9 :roll: and Hornby coaches.

I quite like brass and soldered joints are very strong.  At least brass sides are nearly prototypical thickness, plastic is always too thick and getting glazing to fit flush is an issue.

Still, it's another box that I can tick.

Being in Oz, you must have the same problem as me getting paint.

John

Last edited on Sun Sep 18th, 2016 11:38 pm by Brossard

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Yes, paint is a problem. I was lucky enough to land some SECR and LSWR colours just before the rules were changed.

Even now, where some clarifications have been made regarding posting acrylics or small, sealed qualntities, I'm afraid most of the shops and paint manufacturers still don't want to risk sending anything to Oz (or the US/Canada, for that matter).

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Hi Jeff. Thank you for your reply. Having read it, I went to look for suitable manufacturers, Humbrol and Phoenix seem likely candidates, I don't know if you ever had a preference? before import restrictions came into force .
I have been looking at Roxey mouldings offerings, but , I should do a test
Run with my M7( I suspect it has been well run in considering thst I got it from a club member ) I have a lot of Hornby stock to test it with, but, I had better not over do it , maybe I could try some wagons first and then the carriages one first adding accordingly, bearing in mind " That it will not pull the skin off a rice pudding suggestion " Please post your comments.
all the best. Kevin

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Hi Mark                     Have you heard anything about the "Suggested light pulling power ofthe Hornby M7??"I intend giving mine a test run, at the moment all I know is that it works, and there are pick ups on all 8 wheels. That is quite an achievement for Hornby, but its no good if it don't pull coaches, I would like to make up (I don't know about painting) a Roxey mouldings kit. But I think building a 6 Coach formation might do for me??. But if you could advise on a shorter suitable formation I would be obliged.                           all the best Kevin

Last edited on Wed Sep 21st, 2016 07:03 am by Passed Driver

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As someone else posted (I can't remember which forum it was on!), the M7s do benefit from some careful tweaking of the contacts on the bogie to reduce drag, and also ensuring the bogie is not taking too much weight off the drivers.

I am on record as saying that Hornby really should have put the decoder socket at the back (possibly in the bunker), and crammed more weight into the front end. I haven't tried this idea yet, but I want to replace the weights in the side tanks with real lead, which should put more weight over the driving wheels where it is needed. 

My own M7s (four of them: two BR black and two LSWR) can all manage four coaches with no gradients thrown in, but even so, they are on the point of slipping.
As I said to you in one of our PMs, the M7s were originally suburban passenger engines and could be seen pulling quite lengthy rakes of wooden coaches - I counted 11 in one photo. A few were also used in much later years as station pilots and could be found hauling longish rakes of empty coaching stock into the likes of Waterloo.

Get the balance wrong on the Hornby model (like pulling one of the weights out to put a decoder!), and it would have difficulty with the proverbial rice pudding skins! I have used TCS DP2X-UK decoders in all of mine - they just squeeze in.

Last edited on Mon Sep 19th, 2016 07:50 am by SRman

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Hi Jeff. Thank you, as I have stated on other threads I used to mould my own lead weights for Sea Fishing, but I wouldn't know how to create a mould for Loco weights, and wouldn't want to now. Dangerous pastime .
But the modeller who said about the "rice pudding skin" suggested that removing a washer? from the bogie would do the trick , but that's not for me either. Once I get round to it I have to put a DCC decoder in ( 8 pin?)
all the best. Kevin

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Yes, Kevin, they are 8-pin. As I wrote earlier, I used TCS DP2X-UK decoders in mine, but DCC Concepts also do a nice, even smaller direct plug-in decoder - I have two of these to try out but haven't yet used them.

If you use a decoder with a wired harness, Hornby recommend taking the weight out of one of the side tanks; this is definitely to be avoided if at all possible for all of the reasons we have discussed about haulage power and balance.

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Hi Jeff. Thank you, my M7 is DCC ready so I am hoping that it will be straight forward. Too true the loco is light enough to begin with. When compared to my Bachmann 0-6-0's. all the best. Kevin

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After reading your post Kevin, I went to RMWeb and happened to see a thread there about this loco.  You might want to take a look.  One of the posters confirmed Jeffs' point that the loco will do 4 coaches which seems more than adequate to me.

The only decoders that I will positively NOT use are those from Hornby - my NCE can't even talk to them.  I won't choose Bachmann from choice either but they're palatable.  Lenz might just be the best, but I've used DCC Concepts and Hattons own brand (I suspect they're DCC Concepts under the skin).  Really anything from a recognized DCC manufacturer will work well.

John

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Hi John Thank you for your reply. Unless I am getting a loco converted for sound I use the regular decoder from Hattons. In the meantime I have emailed Dave at Roxey Moudings, regarding Coach Kits. He suggested either a "Brake third 4 C1 and a Composite 4C6" alternatively
"Brake Composite 4 C18 and a Full Third 4C3". He said that some Hornby locos are variable in there pulling power. Not surprisingly he did not mention any likely problems with his kits Kevin

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Very brave of you to consider a brass coach kit Kevin.  As far as construction is concerned, there are no problems with his kits.  They go together well and are accurate.

I didn't like the 6 wheel suspension design, but I think that's my only complaint.

Don't forget the wheels, he can probably supply the correct type - Mansell I believe.

If you do a brass kit you will need to solder it for best results.

John

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Hi John. These are my first tentative steps, first of all I'm going to test its pulling power with Hornby coaches, if it pulls two on a slight incline, or three or four on the level, I would guess that it could be okay.
Just one question about soldering an OO kit, is there much space to work freely inside(or do you solder the outside) oh just another thing about painting and lining? does that need a lot of skill? Kevin

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Tentative indeed.

I think there's a logical progression with modelling.

Just last week you were agonizing about the glue to use on plastic kits.  It's quite a leap to soldering brass kits.  The methodology is totally different.  While plastic kits might be said to fall together when you shake the box, brass ones need a lot of finessing.  Some are better than others.

You do need a good soldering iron (ie expect to pay quite a few quid for one), flux and modelling solder.  You WILL singe your fingers.

To answer the question, the first rule is to work on the inside where excess solder won't show.  Sometimes you have no choice but to work from the outside - then it's a bit of work to clean the surface.

I'm trying to think of a good simple kit to start you off, like a wagon.  I've done a couple of Bill Bedford (Mousa models) etched wagon kits but I wouldn't say they're easy.  I've got four more waiting for my attention.  Perhaps someone here knows of something suitable.

My recommendation though, is that you start with the plastic kits you already have to get the feel of kit building, painting and lettering.

John

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Hi John              I weighed up the odds, and went for "Revell Contacta Pro" my order is in the hands of Amazon.I have soldered before, whether or not it is up to coach kit standard is another matter. I was worried about some of the things said about some kits that are likely to fall apart?? if mishandled.                all the best  Kevin

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Never heard of that but if its recommended for plastic it will work.  A lot of people seem to buy the basics on line, I suppose shops that sell this kind of thing are becoming few and far between.

If your kit falls apart, it wasn't assembled properly in the first place - that's on the builder.  I don't think I've had anything fall apart.  Quite the contrary, plastic models can be the very devil to get apart if the need arises, sometimes you can't without destroying them.

So often I get the impression that people are afraid of solder and I usually hear the "burned fingers" refrain.  I've never "burned" my fingers (implying lasting damage) but I singe them all the time.

John

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Hi John. As you know, the secret of soldering is clean joints , flux and tinning. When I ventured into O gauge semaphore signals many years ago I realised that I could use thin plastic for spectacles in semaphore arms without melting the plastic. It is a pity that I didn't go for coach kits then, whether they were available or not I don't know. My finger tips are just about dead? I think that is to do with my health ? all the best Kevin

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It's surprising what you can get away with when soldering.  The trick is to be able to make the joint in a trice before the plastic or whatever knows the iron is there.  My fingers are getting quite calloused from all the abuse.

John

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Hi John. I remember it well, now I don't feel much, and having a nibble from a hot frying pan, as I cook my Saturday special is much worse.
all the best. Kevin

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Hi Mark, Jeff and John.  Like the complete nutcase that I am( as far as hobbies are concerned) I have emailed Hornby again today congratulating them on the ex LSWR rebuilds , and saying that it was a pity, as I would like to purchase a set, and cut them down to 48 foot, and if I was confident of a good result, I would do just that.. all the best. Kevin

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Hi All.  UPDATE, this is not a critique of Hornby, it is just that they made the carriage in question!As I made a "Ricket" with my previous attempt to get carriages to run with my Hornby M 7 I have had another idea buy one or two of the Hornby 58 foot LSWR Maunsell rebuilds. And then "Cut and Shut" it very carefully with a Razor Saw in the correct place, wherever that maybe? either saving parts or the underframe/ carriage and even
Replacing the bogies?or anything else? What I need to do is locate a Diagram of the 48 foot LSWR coach.
Can anyone please advise me? All the best. Kevin 


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Hi Jeff.  Thank you. This is another question about the  Hornby M7 . After a certain amount of trouble and seeking advice, with a Peco three way point, which I couldn’t get my head around. Wind forward to the present, I ended up using a large radius R/H point, over which a Bachmann ex GWR 57xx has been running back and forth  without any problems . But today I tried the M7 , what a difference, firstly the M7 seemed to reveal a “ short “, and when I tried it on a line with a “ Kadee magnet “ it got grounded. My question today , “ is the M7 low slung “ ? The way it got caught on the magnet? Best wishes Kevin 

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Just looked at my M7`s Kevin there is nothing on them that is particularly low are you magnets well below railhead height?

Brian

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Brian.  AFAIK. I am using the regular magnet and code 75 track, cutting out some sleepers. I have inspected my M7 and noticed a wire frame ? I don’t know if this answers your question? But my Bachmann ex GWR 57xx and several 0-6-0 Locos have no problems .Best wishes Kevin 

Last edited on Wed Mar 13th, 2019 04:29 am by Passed Driver

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Passed Driver wrote: Brian.  AFAIK. I am using the regular magnet and code 75 track, cutting out some sleepers. I have inspected my M7 and not ced a wire frame ? I don’t know if this answers your question? But my Bachmann ex GWR 57xx and several 0-6-0 Locos have no problems .Best wishes Kevin 

Yes i understand you have cut out sleepers but is the top of the magnet well below the top of the rail height Kevin?
I.E. if you put a ruler across the top of the 2 rails the magnet should be lower.
On the M7 the lowest points are the brake rod assembly which is set above the rail height for obvious reasons.

Brian

Last edited on Tue Mar 12th, 2019 02:31 pm by Briperran

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Brian.   Yes, Certainly, Absolutely, Affirmative. The rod assembly must be the wires that I mentioned.Best wishes Kevin 

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Passed Driver wrote:   Yes, Certainly, Absolutely, Affirmative.
Kevin what does the above relate to as my psychic abilities are not working that well tonight

Brian

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Brian. Please refer to the question you posed in post 35     Best wishes Kevin 

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Be more helpfull if you just answered "Yes the magnets are definitely below the railhead"

Next question the magnets you have fitted is the width of them close to the rail either side if so the wheel flange could be catching on them.

Also is your track pinned or glued if pinned are you sure there is not a pin that has not been knocked down properly.

Brian

Last edited on Tue Mar 12th, 2019 05:00 pm by Briperran

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Briperran wrote: Be more helpfull if you just answered "Yes the magnets are definitely below the railhead"

Next question the magnets you have fitted is the width of them close to the rail either side if so the wheel flange could be catching on them.

Also is your track pinned or glued if pinned are you sure there is not a pin that has not been knocked down properly.

Brian
Yes . The magnet is below the rails in a central position, but because the sleepers have been cut to fit the magnet centrally between the rails, there isn’t any track pins, that section of track is glued down. As I have already stated all my Bachmann 0-6-0 Locos pass along the track where the magnet is situated, without any faltering.Best wishes Kevin 

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You are saying there is no way the magnet is interfering with the loco and there is nothing obvious protruding above the rail height in that case look carefully at the M7 have you inadvertently when handling the loco dislodged some of the brake rodding from its location pins/holes and it is hanging down below the rail height.

Lets also clarify when you say grounding you mean the loco is actually being slightly lifted off the tracks in that area?

Brian

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Briperran wrote: You are saying there is no way the magnet is interfering with the loco and there is nothing obvious protruding above the rail height in that case look carefully at the M7 have you inadvertently when handling the loco dislodged some of the brake rodding from its location pins/holes and it is hanging down below the rail height.

Lets also clarify when you say grounding you mean the loco is actually being slightly lifted off the tracks in that area?

Brian
Whether or not the magnet is interfering with the M7 I don’t know? But the M7 would not pass it. During a moment of departure from the wiring issues that I have, I have been considering an electromagnetic uncoupler in place of the permanent magnet. I can categorically state that the “ Brake Rodding “ is in place, and above the inner rims of the wheels. I also stated that when the M7 departed the fiddleyard it seemed to highlight a short circuit where all the Bachmann Locos and Dave Jones Locos have no problems. I sincerely hope that we can put the M7 to rest for the present.   Best wishes Kevin 

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Ok so your magnet is not in any way mechanically stopping the loco and there is nothing on the loco that is lower than it should be so therefore there is nothing that should stop it. But you say it will not pass the magnet?
This is a long shot but are the magnets you are using very strong? If they are and you are running the loco very slow the magnet power itself could be stopping the motor turning because of the strength of magnetism could be pulling on the wheels or other metal parts that may be on the loco. Push the loco gently by hand along the track and when it goes over the magnet do you feel resistance

Brian

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Hi guys,

I was just thinking the same thing as Brian and if your further testing shows some resistance Kevin, take the magnet out and drive the loco over the hole under power and see if it's any better.

Bon courage,

Bill

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Briperran wrote: You are saying there is no way the magnet is interfering with the loco and there is nothing obvious protruding above the rail height in that case look carefully at the M7 have you inadvertently when handling the loco dislodged some of the brake rodding from its location pins/holes and it is hanging down below the rail height.

Lets also clarify when you say grounding you mean the loco is actually being slightly lifted off the tracks in that area?

Brian
Brian.  “ Not interfering “ ? But blocking the path! And nothing is protruding above the rails.        Maybe I will have to learn how to do a video, once I have caught up with some sleep 💤. I have made an appointment with my GP to discuss my sleep issues.   Best wishes Kevin 

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It might be worth checking the back to back mesurements on all the axles Hornby are known for having undersize gaps between the wheels, one wheel set might be pinching on the magnet.

Bob

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Kevin have you actually read posts 43 and 44 with your last post you are answering again a question you had answered earlier.


Brian

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Hi Bob. Thank you for your reply. As it happens, I do have a back to back Gauge, c/o DOGA. But I have never used it before,  and I will give it a go.    Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

If those are KaDee magnets they are not designed for or meant to be used with code 75 rail. Is this the 312 uncoupler? They were originally designed for code 100, from memory some baseboard should be removed for code 83, and even more for code 75. I did ask Kadee a few years ago, they confirmed this. Some random thoughts based on past experiences:

Are the coupler trip pins hitting the magnets? This is the usual source of grounding.

Aside from the issue of the BtB and brake rodding (check that it is in all the slots and not skewed), are any electrical wipers coming in contact with the magnet?

The magnet has to be centrally located.

If this is not a Kadee magnet then you need to check the thickness compared to the KD one and adjust the height to make sure the clearance between the trip pin and the magnet is correct.

A low KaDee coupler pin will usually slide over turnout frogs without being noticed. Running over a long magnet is another story. 

Sloppy coupler pockets/hinges on the locomotive will allow the coupler to droop. The triangular part of the hinge should be a tight fit in its slot, if not it will slide down and the coupler will droop. Try reversing the hinge, it is handed with a small knob on one side that means it has two heights. The cure here is usually a cut-down #5 with gear box or similar, not the NEM ones. I have had this issue with both Hornby and Bachmann locomotives. Tension locks are fine with a bit of droop, not so for KaDee.

Does the M7 have a low gear cover base plate?

The Kadee system is an integrated one, use the jigs and tools that are meant to be used with the couplers, including at a minimum the coupling height jig, the centering jigs for the magnets and the pliers for changing the height of the trip pins. Buying the couplers and winging the rest usually leads to problems...Pandora's box in fact.

Nigel

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Does the M7 have Kadee couplers fitted?

Bill

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Hi Nigel.  Thank you for your reply. I was half way through answering you, when I lost as far as I got. Now the battery needs charging. I will get back to you . Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel.    Thank you for your reply. My M7 was not purchased as a Shunting Loco. I purchased the Hornby Push Pull pack long before the M7. And the idea of using the former programme track as a branch/ part of/ line only came about so that I could run either the Hornby set or Hornby 2 BIL or 2 HAL and Bachmann EMU’s. Furthermore I intentionally removed the hook from the tension lock coupler at the front of the M 7 as it was unnecessary being part of the Push Pull Set. Incidentally all my 0-6-0 Locos of which there are many passed over the Kadee uncoupler without faltering.As it happens I have been considering the Kadee electromagnetic uncoupler, I don’t know if there is anything untoward about it that yourself or any other members of YMRC are aware of before I proceed with this project?
Another project that I am considering is a “ DC micro layout “ and maybe I will be able to run a Pug and something suitable? Or even a narrow gauge micro layout?   Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Bill.   Thank you for your reply.  No, well anyway not Kadee, of course it does have a tension lock between itself and the carriages, but, I removed the hook from the leading tension lock.   Best wishes Kevin 

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Passed Driver wrote: .As it happens I have been considering the Kadee electromagnetic uncoupler, I don’t know if there is anything untoward about it that yourself or any other members of YMRC are aware of before I proceed with this project?


Using Kadee electromagnet  for uncoupling ,requires a good 18v DC 3 amp supply like a laptop type that is regulated

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=13783&forum_id=6

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Hi Ron.  Thank you for your reply. “18 volts DC 3 amp supply “ ?  That could be a stumbling block. Is there anything else that I should be aware of ?    Best wishes Kevin 

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Er. a small mistake, should have read it again before posting
16v DC . not 18v
you may get away with a minimum 1.5A
https://www.kadee.com/html/309ins.pdf


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Hi Ron. I do have various “ wall warts” but they only go up to 12 volts. That would have to be another thing for the shopping list.   Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,


16v DC, 3 amp. Or 18 v AC,  2 Amp with a DC rectifier. A veritable dinosaur that requires major track work. The Rapido one is smaller and a lot less power hungry as it uses a rotating magnet. 

Did you have a look at the M7? If an old one does it have metal tension locks? Steel? From your post I was assuming a KD equipped locomotive, sounds like a tension lock one from your latest post. Check the clearance of the hook.


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BCDR wrote: Hi Kevin,


16v DC, 3 amp. Or 18 v AC,  2 Amp with a DC rectifier. A veritable dinosaur that requires major track work. The Rapido one is smaller and a lot less power hungry as it uses a rotating magnet. 

Did you have a look at the M7? If an old one does it have metal tension locks? Steel? From your post I was assuming a KD equipped locomotive, sounds like a tension lock one from your latest post. Check the clearance of the hook.


Nigel
Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. Have you reviewed your opinion of the Rapido from when you replied to my thread? Regarding the M7 , I did state that I had previously removed the hook from the “Leading Tension Lock” .Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel.  Yet again, another reply. Today I gave my Adams 02 it’s maiden “ Voyage” . I had heard about a problem with the wheel gauge? And it had a problem.  But as it is another 0-4-4. loco could that be a coincidence that it required a bit of a push??? over the points. Have you got any ideas about this problem?  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

Electromagnet uncouplers. If you must have one the Rapido is the better choice. My personal opinion has not changed regarding either. WOT. There are much simpler alternatives if you must have one that is switchable (on/off).


Tension hook. You didn't say whether it was an NEM one or the old screw on type. My previous comments stand. If there is steel, even screws, there will be attraction, especially if the magnet is too high. The other thing that struck me is the possibility that the gear is steel. Run a magnet along the underside of the chassis to see whether there are steel hot spots.That rear bogie could be steel also. The wheel axles will be. Older models will have also have magnetic driving wheels.


Last possible area I can think of - the rail gauge. After cutting the sleepers it pays to check that you are still in gauge by using a track gauge when gluing down. Otherwise you can get a locomotive  that gets squeezed to a stop. Or derails. You have already identified this, and Bill has already suggested taking the magnet out and seeing what happens.


As I said, Pandora's box with 3 possible areas that need checking - the couplers, the chassis, and the track. 


Once you start using KaDee components and mixing them with other items that is normally when the fun, fetling and bodging starts. Especially with UK stock which is loaded with steel. 


Nigel


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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. Today after lifting the Kadee magnet on the plank/ module yesterday,  today I dug out a different plank  which also has a Kadee magnet with code 75 track, fitted the same way ( cut the sleepers and drop in the magnet) and I didn’t have any trouble, nor did the Loco, apart from dirty track, which has been stood in the corner . I have a riddle for you? If the track needs cleaning? How do you get a Loco to drag a track cleaner around the track?   Best wishes Kevin 

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Get a battery powered loco if you can.

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On a small layout you dont need a loco to drag it around its easily done by pushing it around with that thing at the end of your arm called a hand.
Only on a larger layout or one that has hidden areas would you need a loco and the best solution would be as Brendan said if it was extremely dirty.

Brian

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Hi Brian.   Thank you for your reply. I have tried that, and all I succeeded in doing is derailing the wagon.Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. I cannot remember if I had answered this, but roughly it is like this?Most of my wagons are by Dapol, and when I fit Kadee, the first thing I do is remove the body and the weight which I substitute with “ liquid lead “ or whatever you call it? As it goes everywhere I make a frame of styrene pour in the lead and superglue, when it is set I screw on the Kadee Couplings. I haven’t manage to purchase any “ non ferrous “ wheels and axles though. Regarding the Kadee on the Loco? That would be a N E M fitting, a bit droopy, unless I bung something in it? As far as the Kadee magnet is concerned, today I dug out or the corner a plank that has been stood In the corner of my  bedroom. That also has a Kadee magnet which would have been fitted about the same time as the other one. By me using the same modus operandi, And the Hornby M7 had no trouble with the points nor the magnet. But the track really needs a good cleaning ! It must be badly oxidised?  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

I do not use track cleaners, no need with a small layout. N/S will go yellow after several years storage with a slight drop in conductivity. I use #800 followed by #1200 emery paper to clean the rail heads, followed by a wipe with 99% IPA.

Have you checked whether the track is actually live? Or that you have pickup by all wheels? If you only have contact from the drivers and you have a bit of dead track you might just find the M7 coming to a sudden stop....time to read the multimeter instructions.

It sounds like you need to have a look at the track geometry and or magnet position.

Nigel

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BCDR wrote: Hi Kevin,

I do not use track cleaners, no need with a small layout. N/S will go yellow after several years storage with a slight drop in conductivity. I use #800 followed by #1200 emery paper to clean the rail heads, followed by a wipe with 99% IPA.

Have you checked whether the track is actually live? Or that you have pickup by all wheels? If you only have contact from the drivers and you have a bit of dead track you might just find the M7 coming to a sudden stop....time to read the multimeter instructions.

It sounds like you need to have a look at the track geometry and or magnet position.

Nigel
Hi Nigel. Thank you. As for the track being live, I use a device from Gaugemaster simply an LED which sits across the track and illuminates accordingly. The M7 has all wheels pickups, Allegedly. Your mention of. track geometry , I had more trouble with Peco large radius Electrofrog points than small radius points. Of the two entirely different planks they both have magnets between the rails, so why one magnet gets in the way and the other one doesn’t or why the small radius points don’t cause the M7 problems? Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

You really do need a multimeter not a track checker. Did you check the gauge? Or the coupler droop? When you place a straight edge across the magnet is it proud or below rail head? (power off of course). Are any wiring connections to the trailing bogie loose?

A multimeter would verify the last point.


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Hi Nigel. Thank you. In another reply, I tested the Locos on another plank/ module, and none of them had any problems passing over the 321 uncoupler, once that is I cleaned the track. Which sounds like Deja Vu?Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

All well and good but what about the one that doesn't work? Or is it working now?

Nigel

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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. Does it work? good question, simple answer, because I removed the magnet for closer inspection, I don’t know, but whilst it is up? I have another idea. Way back when, I had the idea of using a short length of code 100 with a code 75 transition track where the neodymium magnets were going to sit. I still have that track etc. it may not look so good as code 75, but here’s a challenge? Static Grass? I ‘m hoping that I can disguise the difference ( fat chance? ).. but I can dream. Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

 So with the magnet up and out of the way does the M7 still stall? 

Nigel

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Hi Nigel    Thank you again. I have been busy this morning but I will try it later and report back. Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel.  Yet again another reply. I regret to say it still don’t have an answer for you, plenty of excuses though.I have purchased a new mobile phone, more worries, as I have often stated “ I am a technophobe “ what with trying to sort out my new mobile, trying to get a repeat prescription from my GP,  shopping, I tried the plank/module ready to test the M7, but the gremlins are back on that troublesome point, which was okay after I replaced it with a R/H point which apart from the standard modification, was new. I thought that I had enough Model Railways today.
Then a saviour phoned me, a Gentleman of this Parish. to help me solve my laptop problems, which is going great guns.   I will have to sleep 💤 on it.  Best wishes Kevin 

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"Then a saviour phoned me, a Gentleman of this Parish. to help me solve my laptop problems, which is going great guns"



                      :thumbs

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Hi Matt.  Thank you. That is how to get a TV to work. I have now given up TV Licence and all. More time to whack the layout. I have just been looking at the instructions for using a gadget to trace polarity problems, it worked before, I will try again?   Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel.   An Addendum?    I do have a Multimeter, problem, I don’t know how to use it. Best wishes Kevin 

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Passed Driver wrote: Hi Nigel.   An Addendum?    I do have a Multimeter, problem, I don’t know how to use it. Best wishes Kevin


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCxT-cgKdr0

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Hi Ron. Thank you for your reply. I have looked at the YouTube video, but I cannot see anything about polarity testing.Unless the demonstrator used different words? I understand that all multimeters are different, I don’t know what I need on my multimeter to test for polarity. And I still don’t understand why I have two sets of points wired exactly the same way and one set is fine, where the other set has a short. ie two wires soldered to each side of the point and switch rail, one wire to the “bus” and the second wire to one terminal of the DPDT Slide switch (on both sides)
and the live frog wire, green in my wiring, going to the middle terminal. Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

Nothing beats a bit of experimenting. Digital multimeters are pretty much all the same. For continuity set it on resistance (omega) at 200 with the black cable in the common socket, red in the V,omega,A socket. Switch track DCC on. Touch one probe to one rail, other to the other. It will read 1, which means resistance, i.e. no continuity. if it is around 0.3 you have a short. Touch the same rail with both probes and it will read 0.3 or thereabouts, which means current between the probes (continuity). If it is 1 it means you have very dirty track. You can in fact use the multimeter to see whether you need to clean the track.

Take a locomotive, place in a cradle upside down. Touch 2 wheels with the probes on the same side, then touch one on each side. If you find resistance between wheels on one side a pickup is not working. If you find continuity between sides you have a short. Again dirty wheel treads can be easily detected.

Polarity is simply setting the dial to DC volts (20V, the symbol is a straight line above a dotted line) and seeing whether the rails are + or -.

Regular multimeters are are a compromise with DCC, as it is a cross between DC and AC (half square wave AC I believe at whatever voltage your system works at, mine reads 14.5V but it is rated at 16V). You can get multimeters designed for DCC. Not necessary for checking continuity or polarity and most of us can live with an inaccurate voltage reading.

Resistance/continuity will be the same if you swap the leads over. It doesn't care.

Put a new battery in that multimeter, and start probing. You will soon get into the habit of testing track, turnouts, locomotives, switches, polarity changers, especially DPDT ones, track feeders, soldered connections, transformer output...in fact anything electrical, whether it is DC or DCC. It saves a lot of grief down the road (or should I say rails!). Of all the tools I have this one gets used the most.

Nigel

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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. Now that I am on the to getting my laptop working, I will have to buy some new toner. Then I can print out the instructions for reference. In the meantime there seems to be an issue with my email address ( or email addresses? ) I went to my local Samsung help centre today to ask if they would transfer my contacts from my iPhone to my Samsung? Which they did but the phones were plugged into something? And it would seem that they took a share too? But they couldn’t do anything with my email address and said that it wasn’t working.Best wishes Kevin 

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Excellent post Nigel,  Kevin you say you have the two points - one working perfectly and one shorting. . Use Nigels methods and work your way slowly over BOTH points. . First probe a section of the good one, then do the same on the faulty one see if you get a different reading which might flag up where the fault is
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Hi Matt. Thank you. That is the point? Both of them are wired exactly the same, Insulated fish plates and all.Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel.  Yet another reply. Today I have been checking the wiring, and the Inglenook plank/module works fine by itself, but, as soon as it is clamped to the fiddleyard nothing runs , that obviously means that the short is on the fiddleyard. But after spending a lot of time checking the point wiring l used another plank that is wired okay, as a pattern, then the fault must be on the fiddleyard, enter multimeter “stage left”. But not tonight, I am going to rest a while.  Best wishes Kevin 

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Possibly the supply wires to your Fiddle yard are wired the oposite way to your other boards ?. . . . connecting the two would then short them out ?
  Definately sounds like a job for the multimetre. . . if you open Brians instructions on your Ipad you can refer to them while using the danged thing !!   :thumbs

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Hi Matt. Thank you for your confidence. At first, after the initial “ SNAFU”,with the three way point, once I had replaced it with another L/H point everything was okay. Then the short occurred . Now I am convinced that the short is on the “ Jumper “ between the Inglenook and the Fiddleyard, “ enter stage left Mr Multimeter “ . But, before all that happens? Another busy day Iies ahead . All the usual stuff,Hospital, GP, shopping . Best wishes Kevin 

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This device will self destruct in 5...4...3...2...

Go on use...USE IT !  You know you want to   :thumbs

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Hi Nigel. You may have just noticed, that I haven’t managed to reduce the photo size/ pixels of the multimeter that I have just uploaded. But that is my multimeter. Best wishes Kevin 

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I take it you didn't use the laptop then Kevin 

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Hi Matt. Thank you for what? I will try to locate a short or short circuits. In the meantime I can’t make out what can be wrong with the wiring as it is the way that I have used before.  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Matt.  You wouldn’t believe it! “ I don’t believe it “ but I forgot about the Laptop, I will have to get into it all over again. I will have to get used to using the Canon power shot, again. Best wishes Kevin 

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:pathead :patheadWell done with posting the photo Kevin You now being able to post photos will greatly help people help you solve your problems you come across.
A nice little multimeter there you have it will aid you a great deal once you know a few basic ways to use it.

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Thank you Brian,but, “ I could do better “ now that thanks to a gentleman of this Parish, has put my laptop back on its feet. Keep watching this space . Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

Almost the same as mine.

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Hi Nigel. Thank you. If I can stay awake long enough I will have to try..  but before I get that far? Everything was okay until I laid the fresh copper clad sleepers. I have seen a plan today online, with the electrical connection going through the “ baseboard joint clamps” And save the bother of plugs and sockets?   Best wishes Kevin 

Last edited on Thu Mar 28th, 2019 03:25 am by Passed Driver

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Hi Kevin,

Baseboard clamps? As in joining clamps? One either side? Bare metal? Oh yes, I can see some interesting scenarios.  Along the lines of "well I never", and "I don't believe it". :lol: :lol: :lol: Metal locating dowels would be marginally better. Although power poles or molex type connectors would be a lot, lot better. I came across some 2 amp rated RCA type connectors recently (MF), flexible cord, cut in half, bare wires to the block terminals, works a treat with the NCE PowerCab system. Push/pull to connect/disconnect.

Copperclad. You did remember to cut an insulating groove across the copper and test for continuity? (Lack thereof that is).

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Hi Nigel.  Thank you for your reply. Power poles? yes i did purchase them in readiness, but, the crimping tool that I purchased was for the wrong type of connector. I also have reservations about using baseboard clamps for electrical connections. As for copper clad sleepers I have nearly cut all the way through them, everytime I go back after another short circuit, I have another hack at the sleepers.  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevn,

No need to hack if you test with the multimeter (hint, hint). It is either insulated or conducting.

These are the cables I'm using at the moment (1 meter long).$3.33 each. Used as CCTV camera connectors.

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Hi Nigel. Thank you. I will try tomorrow if I can remain awake, with the GP appointment on Tuesday, which I have been waiting too long for, I am hoping that he/ she can help me out.  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel.  Another reply. The thing about this short circuit is that it is entirely different from previous short circuits, insofar as a short shows up on the Powercab screen without the presence of a Loco. And  all the reds go to the red bus, likewise with all the blacks going to the black bus. And this type of short must have a different story, now all I have to do is read the book? Considering that the Inglenook works fine by itself, the fault must be on the fiddleyard.Best wishes Kevin 


                 

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