:hmm May the equal and opposite force be with you, Max :exclam:exclam :cool wink

Sol and I were having a discussion the other day about some fellow NMRA members.  It reminded me of Newton, "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert."   Well spotted. :thumbs

Max, I think your saving grace is the air conditioner. Keeping the humidity level fairly constant would do a lot to keep the MDF from warping.

So if your air every breaks down, get it fixed immediately!

Wayne

There is a lot of misinformation about MDF about.  You can make it very wet without it warping.  I don't know how to convince everyone that this is the case.  My layout has acres of the stuff and none of it has seen a drop of paint.  All my fascias and panels are unpainted MDF.  The layout is 22 months old with no signs of warping.  It simply doesn't happen.  Chipboard, yes, non marine grade ply, yes; even marine grade ply will move if unpainted.  MDF hardly at all.  I was at Ian's yesterday, but we couldn't locate the report.  Ian showed me a piece of MDF he has had lying under his work bench for years.  It is about a metre long and about 50 mm wide and 16 mm thick.  Unpainted and straight as an arrow. 

I believe you Max, but like I said, I have had 3mm thick boards spoiled by their edges getting wet.
 The 8ft long backscene on Swanhurst has been out on the deck for I don't know how long, and it's fine. I don't remember sealing its edges. In fact I probably didn't because I'm basically lazy
 My table is covered with 6mm MDF sheets. I like the stuff!

 Mike

Yes ,3-5mm MDF does get furry when wet if not glued down properly & it all depends on how much wetness. If I spill some water, 99% of the time ,sopped up straight away. Any joins would have been taped.
Like Max, no problems with larger size MDF or even Chipboard as long as the surface is not scratched - scratching will allow moisture in & chipboard really can re-act then. I use 12mm MDF & Chipboard, even some covered with Melamine which is very hard to scratch.

[user=269]MaxSouthOz[/user] wrote: 

Ian showed me a piece of MDF he has had lying under his work bench for years.  It is about a metre long and about 50 mm wide and 16 mm thick.  Unpainted and straight as an arrow.

 The piece of MDF Max quotes is actually 10mm thick, came from an old exhibition layout. The work bench, it was laying under, is outdoors. Been laying there at least 4yrs.
 As Max said, has no swollen ends etc., and is still strait.
 I did paint it the other day and put a piece of track with underlay on it, as I am going to do a track ballasting demo at our next NMRA meet 27/6/09.

 I am not trying to prove anyone right or wrong I only speak from my experience (32 yrs and still learning) of building exhibition/home layouts. I have used ply, chipboard, MDF of various  thickness's. The ply warps first, chip board does'nt warp but swells. MDF seems to withstand moisture much better than the other two.

The modules on my current exhibition layout(3yrs old) are 35mm foam clad with 6mm MDF painted only on one side. Frame work on my home layout( unpainted) is over 4yrs old, is mostly MDF(various thickness's).
 Both layouts are showing no signs of swelling or warping.

Re layouts in air conditioned room etc. My home layout is in an unlined tin shed(hence the name "Tinshed & Thistledo").

As has been suggested, if in doubt, Paint/varnish MDF before constructing anything with it and you have a very good light material for frame work.  Any old cheap paint will do.
 I have seen painted ply/ chipboard warp and swell but have not seen painted MDF affected by moisture.

 Cheers
 
 Ian
 

I think it's all about the context, Mike.  Acrylic paint is a water based paint and when painted on to MDF, seals it and causes no swelling.  60:40 PVA glue is diluted with water and when it dries, seals the MDF.  I don't think I ever counselled washing MDF with straight water.  I also have untreated MDF in other parts of my layout (e.g. the fascias on the side) which are, so far, unaffected by being untreated.  See below.



 

"I don't think I ever counselled washing MDF with straight water."

I don't think I suggested you did.

 As a matter of fact I have on many occasions washed straight water over the MDF prior to sealing and priming with no ill effects whatsoever.

Recently I've been sealing mine with Jo Sonja's All Purpose Sealer. Available worldwide. Mine's from Bunnings

Mike

My daughter is the manager of the paint division at Bunnings.  I must have a word.

I've gone through two more steps, but I have reached a bit of an impasse in this area.


Here is a series of shots along the centre of the commonage, from the left.  The talus and basic shading have dried and become glued down.  The cleared area where the fence has been recently built and the white from the post holes look OK.










and phase two:

Now another series of shots left to right.  Small trees and bushes have been installed.











 
It still doesn't look quite "right."  I can't put my finger on it.  Are there any suggestions? :???:

Max I think it partly looks right! The ground looks absolutely great.
For what it's worth I'm thinking that although I see some grouping, the small trees and bushes look a bit too evenly spaced [to me]. I would wonder if you'd be better to have some small groups of say three to five plants close together, and then have open spaces between them, with the occasional 'loner' still.
I remember from an old landscape gardening book my mother had, in which the very highly regarded author had some fascinating advice on how to arrange your plantings of trees for the best natural effect.  She advised getting some potatoes, one for each tree, put them all in a bucket, then hurl the spuds via the bucket onto the ground and plant a tree where each one landed. Uneven land and knobbly old spuds would make for a pretty random scattering. I'm not suggesting you do the same on your layout but I think you can get the idea of what she meant.
 Maybe an occasional mature tree thrown in would help too, to tally with those you have on the other side of the road.
I hope that's some help.
Opinions expressed are just that: opinions  

Mike

I think you are right, Mike.  Another pair of eyes :exclam   I will make a few larger trees and drop them randomly in; and try and bunch some more to make little groups.  Thank you.  I also thought perhaps there should be some more bushes and weeds along the fence line where they might survive because they are protected there :question

Yes that would work nicely too.

 Mike

Well for someone who says he cant landscape your doing a bloody good job mate :thumbs

Now funny you brought this up mate really. I was out for a drive with my wife today and i was pointing out the woods and the tree's within. You never see a bunch of the same trees, they are all mainly a mixed up lot of trees, due to the dicky birds dropping there seads over the years. So i think if you put a mixed few together in a clump and the odd one on its own then that would look better.

Also along the fence line i think you need to work out where the shade is going to be mostly during the day and i think this is where you would find weeds, also run them up the fence a little more.

Hark at me :shock:, never done landscaping as such and i am trying to give you advice. Hope its ok, if not then forgive me, :???:.

Phill

Good advice, Phill.  You are forgiven - just don't bite me - well maybe just a gentle one . . . :oops:

Max how about some gorse bushes of the back hillside assuming they have gorse bushes in America of course

cheers Brian

Yep, Brian, I still have to do the hills with their second degree bushings.  The mine will always be a bit bare, due to the coal dust and toxic chemicals.

[user=269]MaxSouthOz[/user] wrote:

and toxic chemicals.

Max i assume that relates to the sign on your layout door that your grandchildren put on there if my memory servess me correct

cheers Brian

:oops: