A tale of Three Rivers

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Experiments with 3 methods of modelling water

The Pentrecourt Halt diorama is not quite finished…



The Afon Teifi is still empty…



It needs some sort of modelled water in it but rivers are something that have, as yet, not been something I've taken on.

Loath to charge ahead with one of the several methods written about on this forum or in the modelling press, with the potential disaster of making a complete mess of it, some testing is to take place in the Newcastle Emlyn works depot.

This is not a "How to" more of a "How I dun it" and comments and suggestions are more than welcome as I go along.

With a bit of luck, I'll help prevent others from making the same mistakes. :thud

Firstly, which methods are within my capabilities.

1) PVA Glue shouldn't be too hard and there is plenty in the depot.

Chris Nevard's Catcott used this method

Unfortunately Chris has removed his photo but googling his name should find you his web site. Well worth a look, some of the best modelling I've seen.


2) Marine varnish, if poured in thin layers, is feasible, and there is a can in the shed at the back of the depot, don't remember an example of this method on the forum, anyone know? and


3) Two pack clear resin used to make a protective coat for outside furniture, a little more of a challenge, requires mixing accurately and the expenditure of funds to get some delivered.

MikeC has given us a very useful demo on how it can be done…



Post 163 on this page http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=2730&forum_id=21&page=9

To be able to see the different methods in context with a modelled landscape… yup, I'm going to model a landscape and thus "A tale of Three Rivers".

A polystyrene block with the river beds gouged out and the plaster soaked "Chux" dishcloth layered over the terrain is the first part of my hardshell for the scenery.
The diorama was built up the same way.



Progress reports as progress is made.
cheers

Last edit: by Marty


Marty
N Gauge, GWR West Wales
Newcastle Emlyn Layout.
Newcastle Emlyn Station is "Under construction"
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This is going to be an interesting exercise, Marty. Although you model in N gauge and are obviously looking for the best solution (pun intended) for that scale, I'm sure that your results will be relevant to us all. Go for it, good buddy :thumbs:thumbs
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Watching like the proverbial hawk,mate!!!:shock:

Cheers,John.B.:thumbs
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I'm looking forward to the results of the test Marty.  I've a small area of dockside that needs 'flooding' and like you am reluctant to dive in (sorry!) and mess everything up.
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i have used the varnish method Matt,works well for ponds,pools, etc

but is a bit slow to build up for a river type.

:hmm:thumbs:lol::cool:
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This will be great to follow, Marty.
 My river on Swanhurst layout was done with varnish too.

 Before you go any further I have to say those pics of the diorama are marvellous.

 Now to sit back and enjoy the ride.

 Mike
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Looks like we are all sitting down and waiting for you to explain your way of completing a river bed, this is going to be good folks.

Quality photos

Quality layout

Quality instructions

Quality bloke

The address to send to cheque too is

……………………………………………………………:mutley:mutley
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'ere… steady on…. don't raise the expectations too high… you should see the disaster of a paint job on the PVA river from last night!!!!

Actually, stay tuned and you will see it in due course…. sigh :oops:

Marty
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As someone with numerous water features yet to install I am also watching with interest.

The river beneath the viaduct has stumped me so far.  It needs to look stil and slightly muddy though ideally will have an almost glassy quality to it.

3-D sea also awaits my attention though the colour mix I got with paint on baseboard as a temporary "fix" has actually attracted some favourable comment as it is.  

Watching and waiting ………….
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:hmmi am thinking of adding some kind of water somewhere so i am very interesteed, it all rest's on your shoulders now mate, we all waiting.

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I'm always interested in the different techniques and different results.

In the past, I have used "spotswood" glass over a hollow basin of plaster, the glass has ripples that blur the colours underneath and looks very convincing for a pond or lake, or even a slow flowing river.

I also used Estapol varnish over a bed painted with shades of brown for a small stream. This one was also successful but only because of a "happy accident"; I got impatient and poured the second layer before the first had dried properly, which resulted in the second layer pulling up the skin on the first layer, giving a beautifully rippled effect.

Currently I have used the Alan Downes method of painting the base then stippling PVA glue over it in layers. I also achieved a nice swirly effect when the glue was partly dry and partly milky but it all dried clear in the end … pity, as I liked the partly milky effect.

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Top soil and rocks

In an effort to make the rivers and surrounding landscape match the Pentrecourt Halt diorama I am using the same techniques for building up the hardshell and the landscape.

Hopefully this will make sure that I don't get any whoops moments when I start pouring different chemical compounds onto the diorama.

The next layer of hardshell or topsoil is Polyfiller mixed with brown concrete/plaster colour. Slapped around cheerfully with an old brush while damp but not too sloppy it firms up nicely with a solid layer of brown "earth" which hopefully will not show any white plaster if chipped.



The river beds are quite deep and steep sided, the plan is to model the river bottom with sand, stones, twigs, paint, sisal twine and dried moss to see what it looks like.
A bit of a test bed if you like :roll:

The Varish and the Resin should be see through to some degree or other and I'm hoping the bottom will be visible.

The PVA doesn't really dry clear and it is unlikely that I'll be able to see through it to the bottom but…. well, it will be fun to do.

Rocks are next, a handful scattered along the bottom of the river…







 
and then mixed in with another batch of brown polyfiller, the rocks will be painted later on.
Once again an old brush was used to push the rocks around until they were sort of coated with earth and positioned where wanted.
Bit like mud pies and lots of fun. :pathead

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Bit like mud pies and lots of fun. :pathead



Make sure you wash your hands first before meal time :exclam
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Is that before or after eating the mud pies??

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I'm all eyes here Marty - I need to model a wide river estuary for my module and at the moment, I don't have a clue how I'm going to do it.

Well done for playing guinea-pig !! :cheers:cheers

Also, (on edit) - I agree with MikeC, the diorama looks stunning :thumbs:thumbs

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"What do I wear in bed? Why, Chanel No. 5, of course. "

Marilyn Monroe

 

What have I put in my river beds? 

Nothing anywhere near as exciting I’m afraid.
 

You’ll remember that the base for the Three Rivers was a block of polystyrene?
…and that the proposed liquids to make model “water” are Marine Varnish, PVA glue and a 2 pack resin?


There is a chance, so I’ve read, that the varnish or the resin could re-act with the polystyrene if they come in contact, potentially eating away the polystyrene and making a mess.

So a seal of PVA glue has been painted over the polyfiller river bed in an effort to stop any liquids seeping through.

The first sprinklings of ground cover is also in place on top of the banks…. The brown was doing my head in.
 



 

Rocks and Sand.

Below is a collection of sand from various sources around my neighborhood. Different types from the river, some from the edge of the cyclepath across the road. Some sieved to get a more uniform size, some not.
The sand types are stored in jars on my workbench for future use.
Hopefully this will allow me to represent different river bottoms.





As the river bed is:

a) going to be covered with liquid that I might not be able to see through and

b) is just a test

the modeling is going to be a bit slap dash, sorry….

… as can be seen from the splashes of paint used to highlight the first rocks already embedded in the polyfiller.
A couple of artfully :mutley:roll: placed piles of stones are also in place.




 â€¦ and now some sand too. The PVA mix is 50/50 with water and sprayed on or brushed on.
If I want to confine the sand to a specific area the brush is handy as the sand just sticks to the area that has been painted with PVA.
The PVA mix is still wet in the photo below.





 Each of the three rivers will get the same scenic treatment;

I’m particularly interested in seeing what effect the thick liquids will have along the edges of the banks when dry. I expect a meniscus or convex transition from the river to the bank.
Not very prototypical.

Planting some walls, poles, rushes, bushes and trees in each river bed should let me compare the effects of the liquids on these too.

Relaxing stuff this!

 

Last edit: by Marty


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Amazing, Marty. The trees in the background look almost real . . .
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A background purely for atmospheric and inspirational purposes Max, clever things these cameras. :cool: :lol::lol::lol:

Marty
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Marty,
         This thread is making me HUNGRY!!! Those pictures in post no.12 look like chocolate cake sprinkled with nuts, and further down the thread,those bowls of rocks and gravel look like cooking ingrediants!
         I've put on several pounds just reading this!!!:lol:

         On a bit of a tangent regarding water,I remember seeing an n gauge layout at Harrogate show a couple of years back that had REAL flowing water!!! It ran downhill in a little stream,and where it sank under the baseboard,there was a little aquarium/pond pump that pumped it back uphill to the top of the stream!
         i would've been impressed enough with that on ANY layout,but on an n gauge exhibition layout that is constantly being moved,erected,dissassembled,moved again…???
        Now there's an idea for Newcastle Emlyn!:twisted:

Cheers,John.B.
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Marty I suspect you're right about the convex edge. If I had been more diligent I would have teased all the edges away with a toothpick as the resin manufacturer suggests on the website. Ah well. Next time.

 This is a fascinating thread that will be of immense value to the forum.

 Mike
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