fact from fiction?

There are many private owner vans on sale from the model companies, for example I have seen Bird's Eye, Saxa Salt, Fyfes and Palethorphe's, to name just a few. However, apart from mineral wagons, which bear the name of collieries or merchants I have been unable to find little evidence of railway vans being similarly marked. I have googled all sorts of types, but apart from pictures of models I have been unable to find any examples from the BR era - yet the model makers produced hundreds of them.  So, my question is, apart from mineral wagons and tanker wagons did private owner vans, with company logos on the side actually operate in real life?

Bob

Hi Bob,

Take a look at these links :

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=private+owner+wagons+of+the+british+railways+pre+1958&biw=1264&bih=605&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=o7ubVdquDcrW8gXb8Zi4Bw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&dpr=1#tbm=isch&tbs=rimg%3ACWCckiq55zIWIjj-_1U4K5O1JmTtYBZfdqdUNw5amS7qj7nQRn934vYUbVmb9d1hlzv6ZSbbD5sBJcyayInkFh90aIioSCf79Tgrk7UmZEZzpbp6ei_1xLKhIJO1gFl92p1Q0RnOlunp6L_1EsqEgnDlqZLuqPudBGHMGqaGw2Y9yoSCRGf3fi9hRtWEZymodtjUlTtKhIJZv13WGXO_1pkR-ZHqm3SjkN0qEglJtsPmwElzJhEQ5eqxtzRHyyoSCbIieQWH3RoiEV3nxAzeYSdS&q=private%20owner%20wagons%20of%20the%20british%20railways%20pre%201958

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70550-carmarthen-junction-miscellena/?p=1021555

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/pounbraked

There are some good books available as well. Look for the series of books named 'Private Owner Wagons'.

Cheers, Gary.

 


 

Thanks Gary - interesting sites. That said, they all seem to reinforce my initial thoughts, as whilst there are hundreds of examples of coal wagons, several tanker wagons, there do not appear to be any vans or similar wagons.

Bob

Bob
Do not know if this is what you are after?

Wagon designed for carrying bagged Cheshire salt, similar to a coal wagon except for the permanent roof to keep the salt dry. The body of this wagon, built around 1900, was acquired in 1994, having been found on a farm in Hawick. It has been repainted in its 1920s livery and rebuilt onto a set of steel frames from a tank wagon. It would have originally had wooden frames.

Andrew

Hi Bob, having read your initial enquiry do you mean covered vans used and built after nationalisation in 1948? if so I doubt you will find much beyond what you have already discovered, I have googled covered vans and can only find one example and that was for fyffes bananas and it was a small label upper right on a van side, I do not think there were any private owner vehicles in the period you are asking about, but I could be wrong-it wouldn,t be a first….


Cheers, Pete.  

Hi Pete,
I also have a feeling that many of the vans were wishful thinking. Palethorpes sausages was real, I believe Colmans Mustard ran a van, most of the PO wagons were coal. Tarmac had some interesting vehicles, as did Yeomans, plus some of the square tankers with various oils were real. Regular tankers such as National Benzol were real. WD stock is interesting. If you find something interesting, get an undecorated van and have the sides done as decals (or do it yourself). That way you will have unique numbers and something based on a prototype.
Nigel

Exactly right Pete, and your research matches mine - yet model wagons/vans from the Hornby and Triang ranges depict loads of varieties - for example under fish vans you can find Birds Eye, Findus and Fresh Fish; yet I cannot find any pictures of private owner fish vans from the 50s & 60s. I was wondering if Hornby etc got an advertising cut from companies to put their logo on vans? It is the same with batteries e.g.. Eveready and of course you have the famous Weetabix vans.

Bob

These are the vans that I am referring too - just a small sample:

[user=11]Novice[/user] wrote: 

I was wondering if Hornby etc got an advertising cut from companies to put their logo on vans? It is the same with batteries e.g.. Eveready and of course you have the famous Weetabix vans.

Bob

Tut, tut, Bob. How could you think Hornby would do such a thing :roll:

I've recently painted a couple of Lima wagons with 'Clarks' emblazoned on the side. Never knew shoe manufacturers used 10T seven plank open wagons!

Ed

[user=11]Novice[/user] wrote:

These are the vans that I am referring too - just a small sample:

All fantasy land, I'm afraid, but they sold in bucketloads over the years to the train set generations. Unfortunately they have no place on an "authentic" layout and most of the mouldings are not really representative of any actual prototype although the Birds Eye one is based on a H&B fish van, IIR.

I avoid those vans like the plague Bob - I just hate the toy-like gaudy colours Hornby insist on using.  I suspect you're spot on re the cut plus, for youngsters, they look more exciting running round the circle of track than do boring old brown vans ………..:roll::roll:

I know the Palethorpes van was real: When I was about 7 all the kids around would be there to see it go past attached to a passenger train. That puts it around the time of Nationalization but I cannot be sure that it existed long into the BR era. I think it was a Siphon or something similar, definitely a bogie vehicle.

Not quite all fiction, but you do need to do some research, as PO vans were rare.

Witney blankets were moved to Harrods by the GWR in the early half of the 20th century with big signs plastered on the sides of the vans proclaiming "Another load of Witney Blankets for Harrods" or words to that effect. Whether the signs made it very far past Oxford is another issue. The GWR also did container transport of furniture on flat wagons which would advertise the remover. Birds Eyes were transported in insulated containers on flat wagons, a short-lived experiment in late GWR/early BR days I think. Most vans were the usual railway issue.

Bass used to move their beer in ventilated vans with tanks inside with a big Bass sign on the side, that would make an interesting model.

When coal was king almost everybody with their own steam plant had PO coal wagons. Plus the gas works, which were only amalgamated in the 1930's. Even a small coal merchant would have a few. Very few companies owned the wagons, they were normally leased from the builder or leasing companies.

One of the major consumers of coal were the railways. I think the GWR had around 1000 engines on steam a day using an average of 5 tons each.  Limited running on Sunday, 1.5 million tons a year. Same would apply to the other companies. That's 3000 10 ton coal wagons a week. The Southern needed to generate electricity, same applies. Every local pick-up that went through a station with coaling facilities or a small 2 engine shed would have 1-2 company coal wagons or more a week. A major shed would go through an alarming number of wagons a week. Something to include in a freight train.

The PO books are a good starting, point, old photographs are often illuminating. I have the impression that specialized vans were around, but that the vast majority were railway company stock. Tankers were privately owned. 

Nigel

Thanks all for the great comments. For some years I have wondered about this issue and once again the forum has put an issue to bed for me.
Bob

Hi Bob, I have just been reading an article in the April 2015 Model Rail mag, about early container company names in the 1950s 1960s period used on British Rail and there are some interesting photos with loaded Lowmacs and Freightliners, there is an online index www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/ModelRail.  These appear to be the nearest to private owner wagons in B.R usage that I have seen.

Pete.   

I continue to keep my eyes open for examples of company logos on railway wagons and came across this example. It seems Birdseye did have wagons bearing their logo (well containers anyway!):

B740320_Birds_Eye__m_

Bob

I think Ford (the Motor Company)had some vans as well. Some of the China Clay companies had some opens branded as well for a while. Will look into some of the books I have and see what I can come up with.

If I was clever enough I'd love to run a home-made period train of PO vans painted up with some really esoteric logos…

'Cure-it Cornplasters', 'Samson Superstrong Sock-suspenders', 'Stik-it Sealing Wax' 'Plumpley's Perfect Plus-fours' and so on…

Doug

"Add lustre to your cluster.  Try Nacka Lacka."   Just going .. . . .

[user=269]MaxSouthOz[/user] wrote:

"Add lustre to your cluster.  Try Nacka Lacka."   Just going .. . . .

Tee hee… you missed out on 'adds glamour to your hammer' etc!

Doug [also just going…]