Diagram Q

Hi All,

Searching fruitlessly for some GWR autocoach buffers and roofs, I came across a Keyser white metal/plastic GWR autocoach kit on the eebygum auction site. Well, actually, 2 kits. Looked interesting, so a bit of research revealed that the model is of a diagram A31 conversion  of 6 59 foot 6 inch diagram Q steam railmotors, which were originally built in 1906. The conversions were carried out in 1934-5. The diagram Q's were not a Swindon body build, but one done by the Gloucestershire Carriage and Wagon Company, and differed from the other 59 foot 6 inch models from Swindon by having double passenger doors in the middle. The A31 conversion retained the double doors, as well as the smaller windows from the driving end of the steam railmotor.. (Kerr Stuart built some 70 foot steam railmotors for the GWR, also with double passenger doors).
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Keyser kits are not up to the fine-scale standards of today, although these look to be very capable of holding their own against GWR autocoach offerings from Airfix, Dapol and Hornby. Several of these coaches were still running in the 1950's, so lots of modeling scope. I'm currently finishing a diagram N bash from a BSL kit, and have made a start on a diagram A7 matchboarded trailer scratch build, so perhaps one more to add to the fleet. Certainly they are a bit different to the usual autocoach offerings.

It does strike me that GWR modelers are being short-changed when it comes to autocoaches from the RTR suppliers. 70 foot suburban (no luggage compartment) and 59.5 foot long branchline (luggage compartment) models; matchboarded, paneled, and flat sided models; single and double passenger doors; conversions from steam rail motors (decidedly odd looking window spacings) and purpose built ones; flat ended and bow ended; windowed and plated ends….and examples of all these types were still running up until the mid 1950s. Not to mention the various odd-ball autocoach conversions from regular coaching stock (for example the Cifton Downs stock from low roof 3-arch bogie coaches, clerestory coach conversions, 4-wheel coach conversions….) A veritable smorgasbord for those of us looking for something a bit different.

More on the Gloucester version when the kits arrive (some time in September it seems).

Nigel

Hi Nigel,

I remember the old Keyer autocoach kit well and even know exactly where my own mostly built version of it is. It certainly looks the part and as soon as I had the bogies on it, hooked it up to my new Airfix 14xx, which struggled to move it's massive weight (I only added plastic seats and some paint, honest guvn'r), so it has sat in a box for several decades.

However, it is still on the 'waiting to think what to do about list', due largely to the absence of RTR auto trailers and the now abundant availability of modern motive power options to move it.

I was fascinated with the fruits of your research and reckon the Keyser may well be introduced to a 64xx before long.

Best,

Bill

Hi Bill,

Weight is certainly a problem with Keyser kits, given the thickness of metal they used in the castings. At least this one has a plastic roof. Very few ran with American hogies, so some plastic ones will help keep the weight down. 

An X-6-X would definitely seem more appropriate than a 14xx. I was thinking of a Prairie as I have an EM set of drivers doing nothing. In fact I have a running chassis  somewhere doing nothing. Airfix body??

The plan at the moment is one kit for spares (roof, buffers, bogies, internal partitions) for the matchboard scratch/bash build, one to build. Pulling two of these heavyweights around might be stretching it a bit.

Nigel

Hi All,

The Keyser kits arrived yesterday. Originally cast in South Grimbsy, Banbury, Two vacuum sealed sets of white metal and plastic roofs. Everything the 1970's/1980's kit builder needed, including wheels (not bad), the entry steps, a vacuum tank and brake cylinder.The optimist in me says an unusual autocoach, the pessimist says that's a nice lot of white metal for weights. Fair amount of flashing to remove, and the ends will need judiciously bending to shape as they do not match the roof profile.

This is the third autocoach I currently have on the workbench, so I have included a couple of photographs of the Diagram N and Diagram A9 (matchboard) builds.

So what's the plan now I have 2 of these model kits? They cost $8.00 each (~£6.00), and the original intention was to use them as spare parts for the other autocoach builds. It would cost me more than that just to get the buffers from the UK. So…I think a Diagram A31 with the double entry doors and non-plated windows on the luggage end, using the window ends from both kits. The spare roof, steps, buffers and probably the bogies going to the A9 matchboard build. I will need to source 1 or 2 brake cylinder kit (Dart Castings), as well as the dynamo for the A31, although I might have a one in the spares. If not it should be easy enough to build a representation from bits of brass and styrene.The wheels should re-gauge to EM (40+ year old plastic is always problematic), if not standard Hornby/Bachmann ones should work.

The Diagram N build currently has 3D printed "American" bogies on, the difference between them and the Keyser cast ones is chalk and cheese.

Nigel

1. The kit as supplied.



2. What's in the box! Wheels and wire for the hand grabs not shown. There are 4 interior partitions, labeled 1-4, no instructions so some guesstimating will be called for. Usual Keyser slot and tab construction fo the sides. The queen posts are nicely done. Two V hangers on one side - two brake cylinders or just a pivot for the brake rodding? Difficult to tell from photographs, although there do appear to be 2 cylinders. Two tanks on the opposite side. so one will need fabricating. By the date of the conversion I think this diagram would have had electric lighting, so a dynamo will be needed.



3. Details of the "American Bogie". Very nice rivet and spring detailing.



4. The driving cab end. This is too flat and will need some careful bending. I have some bells in the spares box.



5. Inside the Diagram N bash of the BSL autocoach. Populated by lumps of white metal masquerading as people. Dart Castings makes no claim on these figures, they are meant to be used as weights. The Keyser kit does not come with a floor or seats, so they will need to be put in.



6. Vacuum brake from Dart Castings which is currently in the Diagram A9 scrach build. I'll use one of these in the A31 build instead of the rudimentary one supplied in the kit.



7. For comparison with the "American" bogies in the Keyser kit, the 3D printed "American" bogies currently on the Diagram N build. Note the poor printing on the right hand side coil spring.

  Hi Nigel,

What a lovely post, which brought back fond memories and fed my ongoing passion for auto trailers. First of all are the instructions for the Keyser kit:




Miraculously, the instruction sheet (sans pictures) was still with it and I remember, as an early 20s nipper not knowing much about these strange autocoach contraptions, taking a very long time in an attempt to get things reasonably in the right place.

This is where I put the partitions:



The secret to fitting them is all about joining the dots. Now that takes me back some years, but t'instructions explains how to do it.

I had actually forgotten how good looking this model was until your post Nigel, so balanced the roof on top to see what it looked like:

 


I think your post has helped advance my unit a little further up the list and I’m looking forward to your build Nigel, as it will give me more impetus to finish mine off. I even know where I have a spare gong which some kindly modeller sent me :)

Best,

Bill

Hi Bill,

That is a nice looking model. Certainly different from the RTR models. Thanks for the instructions. One thing I missed was that the windows at the luggage end were much smaller than the driving end, thanks to the rebuild from the SRM keeping the small engine compartment ones. I shall be modifying one of the full-end ones in the kit, and using black styrene as the window as they were painted over almost immediately after rebuilding (until they were eventually plated over). Some of The A31's were still running in the 1950's, so lots of choice in livery. This one is not destined for Watlington, so perhaps in my favorite time frame of 1946-1956.

Nigel

Hi All,

"Keyser Kits - where expectations are high, and the reality is never going to match".

Windows cut in the luggage end (smaller than the driving end, this was an SRM conversion and was where the steam engine was) body shell put together with CA glue (thanks to Bill for the instructions, and given the thickness of the metal soldering is highly problematic), styrene floor added, cosmetic underframe in styrene added, 2 tanks underneath, one for the vacuum reserve cylinder, one for who knows what, it had electric lighting so probably another vacuum cylinder? There are two sets of V-hangers….Only one tank and vacuum cylinder in the kit though, luckily I have 2 kits. Dart castings if I want something realistic.

Wheels and bogies work OK with the wheels set at EM gauge. Weighs a ton, although with all that weight it will take some stopping once it gets going. Filler next for the gaps (it's a K's kit, nothing ever fits exactly), the roof is overlong and needs some work. Overall, not bad considering it's age and who made it.

Like Bill's the ends are flatter than normally found. Photo's show that the prototypes appear to be flatter than the Swindon variety, so I desisted from trying to bend them. Then again, K's may have got it wrong. Those spare sides might just fit an old Airfix or Hornby autocoach.

Nigel

Edit: I used a fine brass wire brush on the Dremel to clean off the oxidation from the body parts (inside and out), and degreased the gluing surfaces with isopropyl alcohol. I used 5-15 second CA glue, which gives a bit of wiggle time. As usual, a fair amount of fettling was needed to get the parts to match reasonably closely. And yes, the roof has a bow - time is not kind to plastic roofs, they bend. This may require anchoring posts at either end. I cannot find a detailing kit for the cab innards, or the autocouplig bar. As the prototypes were essentially engines, they were also fitted with ATC.  Looks like some scratch building will be required for some of the details..

Hi Nigel,

Great progress and with added interest of those smaller windows to the SRM driven end. I don't think CA was around when I put mine together, so I used the only type of Araldite epoxy glue available, the 12 hour drying type, which made assembly a tedious process!

I see like me, that you haven't cut doors in the partitions yet, although I'll only do the central lobby ones, but may  model them closed, as the bendy bodywork needs all the help it can get.

I've ordered another used Aifix example from Hattons this week, complete and in good useable condition for a modest £7 and will do some surgery, even if it's to use a spare Dart casting detail kit and cut in some windows in the luggage compartment, maybe with painted over glazing.

Will you keep true to the SRM conversion and cut a hole in the roof and fill it in where the chimney was?

Following closely here with a view to blatantly copying all your good ideas.

Best wishes from a marvellously warm Loire Valley where I'm still doing more gardening than modelling and enjoying watching the wildlife who share our gardens.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Feels like it's inching along.  Interior doors - some ultrathin styrene frames and a handle. Roof hatch?  The few overhead photos I have of the luggage end of the ex-SRM conversions show a regular roof. I suspect new canvas would have been used. I shall investigate further.

I was tempted to use 2-part epoxy, but get it wrong and it's into stripper for a few days. At least CA goes in a few seconds with acetone.

The smaller windows need the molding underneath removing. Getting rid of the bell and the regular anchorage triangle took about 30 minutes. Each. The white metal used for the ends seems a lot harder than that used for the rest of the body.

I'm tempted to add some cross bracing between the sides at the top where it won"t be noticable.

Nigel

An interesting series of posts,  as I have the kit in the kit mountain, your struggles and others information will. Be of great help. 

Hi Q,

No trials and tribulations so far. Just the normal issues these kits have (poor fit due to uneven shrinkage for example). Not the first (and probably not the last) K's kit I've built. At least with this one they addressed an unmet need - an ex-SRM conversion, paneled  sides, and as a bonus one that was built by an outside contractor. No mention of this on the label, but those double doors were the giveaway. The weight is of some concern, not sure my 57xx is going to be up to the job. 

Seems  through no active decision I'm (slowly) building a fleet of trailers and autocoaches. Still mulling over the Kernow SRM as an EM conversion is an unknown.

Nigel