Forward dating a Southern Railway E8A

Hi All,

A Life-like Southern Railway E8A in the late green and grey livery of the 1960s-1970s arrived last week. Nice runner for a model made in 1995. Took the shell off and had a look at the chassis. Positives: 5-pole skewed motor, flyweels, plenty of weight, good wheel treads, no traction tires. Negatives: Knuckle couper on the front, Rapido on the back truck, DC, little room for a decoder or speaker, wheel wipers conduct through strips of brass, then to the motor terminals, and lots of lead. Just to confirm I used a lead test kit. It's definitely a lead alloy.

So, I have a plan. Correct the body issue, make the wiring more reliable and DCC-friendly, epoxy paint those lead weights, and then connect the motor to a Southern Railway E6B dummy with a sound decoder, and run some speaker wires back into the E6B along with the Red, Orange, Black and Grey wires.  And a second speaker in the dummy. The E8A and E6B will be a permanent A+B set as I will use a coupling bar (same as a steam locomotive and tender) rather than knuckle couplers. The body issues are not serious, and I don't need to strip off the paint.  More on what will be done in the next post. See the photos below to see what I will be working on.

Cheers,

Nigel

What you gonna do with all these locos Nigel, you see to be getting rather a lot of different eras, or am I missing something 



Ed

Those lead weights look like the full load hauling capacity for the loco ………………wow !!

Hi Ed, Peter,

I've accumulated E shells (E5, E6, E7, E8) from buying Life-Like locomotives and replacing the chassis with BLI DCC sound ones. It's more cost-effective than converting a Life-Like DC chassis into a DCC Sound one. Some Life-Like models are dummies, destined to have DCC sound but no motor. I bin some of the Life-Like chassis (the lost cause gang) or bin a dead motor. Given the age of the Life-Likes, the body details are almost as good as the BLI or Kato E7/E8 models. RTR manufacturers rarely produce a Great Northern or Southern Railway E model in N-scale. The Great Northern only had 12, all E7As, and that I can understand, but the Southern had 58. Good selection in HO though.

I only model 2 railroads - The Great Northern Railway (I like the color scheme) and the Southern Railway. Both of them ran named passenger trains. Great Northern passenger trains had E7As and F3s and F7s, Great Northern freight trains used re-geared E7As. I run both. The Southern for me is strictly passenger trains. The modular club I belong to often runs a large layout at train shows, museums, libraries, and even over 55 housing associations. It's a great opportunity to run full-length passenger trains headed by 3 or 4 diesels. I plan on 2 named passenger trains per railroad, so the minimum is 4 E series each. Both railroads heavily modified their E series throughout their life, so by the 1960s no 2 were identical.

The Southern mainline for freight and passenger trains going to Washington DC ran 10 miles from where I live, so there are plenty of rivet counters around who worked on the Southern or remember it. Some preserved E series are nearby (that's relative, nearby is usually 100-200 miles, and that's a day trip here).

Weight. The Life-Like models are usually 30% heavier than a modern MAZAC/ZAMAC chassis. Removing the weights to get DCC sound seriously affects pulling capacity. A full-length passenger train can have 8-16 cars, plus 4-6 baggage/mail cars. I usually run that with 3 locomotives (A-A-A or an A-B-A), at least 2 powered, and all sound. Hence the plan on this one is to keep the weights, and put the decoder and a speaker in a dummy That could be an E7A (with a driving cab) with an F3 or F7 A or B for the Great Northern, and a E6A-8A and an E6B for the Southern. There is a Life-Like Southern AB set on eBay, "not working." Well, I've got plenty of working chassis lying around. I've yet to start on the F3/F7 models. More challenges, because I want them in the Big Sky Blue (BSB) color scheme. A new RTR  A/B set goes for around $560 with DCC sound. I may have to go with the Empire Builder green and orange scheme, which is much cheaper.

Cheers,

Nigel

Understand now, your running on club layouts.

I thought you must have an enormous basement 




 

Hi Ed,

You commented on eras. All the Es were running in the 1960s. My time frame is 1965-1970 for the Great Northern, and 1965-75 for the Southern. The E6A/B units were built in 1941, the E7As late 1940s, and the E8As early 1950s. The Southern rebuilt all its E6s as well as most of its E7As to E8 specifications between 1951 and 1954. I don't think the Great Northern did, as they had by the 1950s focused on FP3/FP7 diesel locomotives for their transcontinental passenger trains. Their E7As were used between Seattle-Vancouver, BC, and on locals around St. Paul, Minnesota. Local being anywhere between 150 and ~500 miles. St. Paul to Winnipeg, Manitoba, was the longest at 457 miles. [London to Aberdeen is 397 miles. ]

The E series goes back to the mid-1930s when they were being used for transcontinental passenger trains (E5s). Production stopped during WW2. The sloped hood was patented in the 1930s. Knickerbocker was one of the inventors, and he was responsible for many of the subsequent railroad paint schemes. Hence Knickerbocker Glory.

Photo below shows an E6A coupled to an E8A refueling at Danville, VA, in 1965. Photo taken by Curt Tillotson, Compare the appearance of the E6A with the Life-Like model. Those pipes on the roof are aircooling, oilcooling, oilcooling and aircooling going from front to back. Five-chime Nathan horn, nice big number boards, one headlight blanked off, front door on the cab nose, all those MU cables, and the "gorblimey" trousers on the fireman. Both locomotives are painted black and pale grey. A few years later the Southern went back to green and pale grey with gold lining. "Sunshine Yellow". The train is the Piedmont Special, New York to Atlanta.

Internally the E6A was an E8, no issues of mechanical incombatability or power. Just a different body shell. And none of those air tanks (torpedos) on the roof that were found on the E8As. The Southern did not buy any more dedicated passenger locomotives after the E8s. Like all the other railroads they concetrated on freight locomotives. The E6s went back to EMD as trade-ins in 1967, the E7s and E8s were still working into the mid-1970s.

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi Ed,

"I thought you must have an enormous basement."

I do have an enormous balcony (36 x 6 feet) but my condo management is a bit iffy about me running trains and the potential for a locomotive to derail and fly onto the plaza 140 feet below. And they wouldn't let me put up safety mesh as it would spoil the appearance as the building is of historical interest. Equivalent in the UK would be a Grade-II. All I have to worry about is where to store the modules.

I do have a 5 x 1 foot baseboard/shelf that I play around with. Fits nicely on the ironing board. I also have one in storage. Another ironing board would give me 20 x 1 foot. That is roughly 40 x 2 feet in HO/OO. The one at home is currently being converted from HO to N. Plus I'm building 3 modules for club use. The town where I live has a community woodworking shop, so I built them there. Club members don't have to have a module to run trains. Help in setting up/taking down is appreciated. After a month of snowy weather and freezing temperatures, I decided to go for a winter scene: bare trees, snow on the ground and tracks, clumps of snow-covered firs. and that way I do not have to spend a fortune on scenic materials. Technically I live in the foothills of the Appalachians, and I have plenty of photos of the Es heading south through snow. And to think, I moved down here from Canada to get away from the snow. Two inches here and everything stops.

Cheers,

Nigel

Your a great example to those who say they haven't got room for a model railway/railroad Nigel 


Know what you mean about the snow, it's the same here where I live in the south of the UK, Essex.



Ed

Hi Ed,

It never snowed when I lived in Essex. but that was a century ago.

Cheers,

Nigel

BCDR said

Hi Ed,

It never snowed when I lived in Essex. but that was a century ago.

Cheers,

Nigel

From “Post #291,580”, 24th February 2025, 1:46 pm

 

Hi All,

I did some gluing on the shells (Part II), so while waiting for it to out-gas I decided to get started on the motor and chassis mods needed for the E8A. Off with the shell, and away we go.

First off, get the fuel tank/air cylinders off. The screw holding it in place is under the motor, which is connected to the brass pickup strips by a wire on one terminal, and by direct soldering for the hidden terminal. Two quick cuts and the motor was lifted and the screw exposed. The tank unit was removed, the two air tanks snapped off (MAZAK/ZAMAC molding, not lead) and the breaks tidied up. They will be replaced by 2 oval water tanks (for the passenger steam heat boiler). The motor was turned 90° so the terminals were now on the sides, rather than the bottom and top. I'll use a styrene insert under the motor to prevent torque rotation and possible contact with the brass strips.

I also tested the weights for lead. Positive. I will remove a small amount from the tops (for a speaker and front light), de-grease them with 99% IPA, and give them a coat of epoxy paint. Luckily the weather has got warmer, so I can do this outside.

Looking at the gear tower worm it's been a long time since this locomotive was serviced. I'll remove the trucks and gear towers, clean the gears and worms, and re-lube with Labelle. grease One of the plastic tube drive shafts is brittle, I'll replace both with some new tubing. Small-diameter model airplane fuel line usually fits.

Oval water tanks? Oval brass tubing does exist, but it's too big for this application. I checked my stock of styrene tubes, all are round, but one is the right diameter. Put the kettle on for a tea and a think. Eureka moment! Styrene softens in hot water, so while the kettle was on I put a length of tubing in an old mug, poured boiling water in, waited 5 minutes, then compressed it in the vice while I had a cuppa.  It's oval and stable. Problem solved. I need to cut it to length for 2 tanks and put some ends on. Then they will go between the fuel tank and the truck ends.

The torpedoes for the roof arrived today, so I need to check where the connecting pipes go. The Nathan 5-chime horns also came, so I need to remove the single horns, fill in the holes, and add the new one. The top of the cab on the LHS had a radio antenna, known as a can on a stick. P/B wire and some of my smallest styrene rods will do nicely.

I've been giving some thought to lighting. If I have the decoder in the dummy will I have to run more wires into the powered locomotive? Not necessarily. Kato does some small DCC-friendly directional lighting units. I should be able to get one of those in the front with a bit of metal removal. Power directly from the wheels. I did this years ago with some LED oil lamps on the buffer beam of my OO steam locomotives, although that was some armature wire, a 5k or 10k resistor, and the oil lamp/LED unit. KISS!! I have some small LEDs and resistors somewhere. I should have some armature wire, along, with some circuit board.

Some photos are below.

Cheers,,

Nigel



E8A chassis


Fuel tank screw (under the motor)


Separated fuel tank and air tanks


The fuel tank reinstalled and motor turned 90°



How to make an oval tube for the new water tanks


Positive for lead


Definitely time for some fresh lube

Hi All,

I found some oval oil tanks in N-scale on eBay, and came across some HO-scale cooling coils in the HO spare bit container. They will require some cutting and joining, but they have vanes. I have 2, I ordered some more from eBay.

I was staring at that fuel tank over a cup of tea. Hmm, dead space. Maybe I could replace it with a plastic one and use some 10 thou' brass sheet to maintain chassis rigidity. Would a thin sugar cube fit? I have a spare fuel tank destined for another project. The ESU LokSund thin sugar cube does. So I ordered 2 fuel from eBay. I'll cut and shut to size. That solves the issue of where the speaker goes, and means I do not have to mess around with the lead weights, apart from giving them some coats of paint. I've put sound speakers in a few OO-scale diesel fuel tanks, so I know it's feasible.

Photo of the plastic N-scale fuel tank for a GP-7 yet-to-be-hacked rooftop cooler. Made by Details West, it's a white-metal casting below. One HO coil is enough for 2 N scale representations.

Photos of the fuel tank of an E6 can be misleading. One section, nearest the front end, is for battery storage. One thing that intrigues me is where did the bell go? On passenger diesel locomotives it's normall on the left-hand side underslung from the chassis just ebhind the truck. I will have to have a careful look at some photos.

Cheers,

Nigel

That's got to be really small 

Hi All,

Ed: Casting is 7.65 x 9.85 mm, after cutting and shutting 19.7 x 2 mm. Fingers crossed. At least it's a white metal casting, and not a brass lost wax one

Update on the real coils. The Southern Railway Historical Association knew what the ones over the radiator grills were. They even sent me a diagram showing me the sizes and hook-up to the original piping of the internal radiators. Neat. They were water radiators, used only in the summer months. They couldn't help me with the coils over the cab and over the steam generators. They looked like air-cooling coils for the electrical cabinets that were located there. They may not have documented as an official works order. Brass plumbing fitments do exist in N scale, but I may draw the line there. I'll be happy with bent wire.

The gentleman who runs the archives sent me a photo of the HO scale E7A where he is installing these external radiators.  He is running into the same problem of how to model those vanes. I made some suggestions, but I'm going to suggest he tries some brass etching, where he can have the holes for the pipes and the vanes done at once. I may even give it a try.  Wonder if he would like to split the cost?

Cheers,

Nigel

hi All,

I gave a try at bashing that HO cooling coil into strips, Yuck! Nope! Noway! Hence the red cross. This is when you realize how bad some castings are. Move on, nothing happening here.

Sometimes it just doesn't work out.

So, I had another cuppa and a reread of the Southern documents on the install. Hmm, it says that the vanes were plugged for the winter. So I went and had a look at some photos. Taken in the summer and fall and those vanes were clearly there. Taken in the winter and spring there was an open box-like appearance. with the pipe sticking out of the ends. The striations on top must have been vanes/pluggers. That makes life a lot easier, and now fits in nicely, as the next series of modules is set in the winter. So, the plan is: A) Draw up an etching diagram now I have the dimensions, send it off and get it etched (vanes, spacers, open box); B) In the meantime, make some "open" boxes that would fit over the radiators. Presumably the vane plugger was there to prevent ice accumulating between the vanes and breaking them. Lots of falling icie from the icicle breakers as trains went through tunnels crossing the Appalachians or through a snowstorm or freezing rain. I have some thick styrene sheet that might suits….or maybe a thin LEGO block….

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi All,

More progress on updating the E8A. The lead weights were given 3 coats of black epoxy paint, now testing negative for lead. The hollow Atlas fuel tanks arrived, one fits nicely underneath the chassis.

I did some research to see if I could fit a small DCC sound decoder in the fuel tank. An ESU V5 Micro fits with space to spare. I also found some sugar cube speakers designed to fit in the cab. They are a side-by-side twin-coupled arrangement. I might have to take a bit of metal off the front weight, which will mean some re-epoxy painting, and I will need to get the fuel tank permanently fixed. 2 small brackets on either side hidden by the oval water tanks (yet to arrive) should do it. I just need to provide screwdriver access from underneath. I may have to increase the length of the fuel tank depending on how big the oval water tanks are. I also replaced the old drive tubes with some flexible silicone tubing. I'll order the decoder with an EMD V12 567 dual engine sound file (E8) and the speakers tomorrow. Streamlined Backshop makes the speakers. I've used their products before.

Some photos below

Next up will be the roof - new horn, 4 torpedoes, and some connecting piping.

Cheers,

Nigel


Epoxy painted weights


New drive tubes


New empty fuel tank


N-scale twin speaker for cab roof

Hi All,

As usual, there was a slight change of plans. The seller of the speakers is either on vacation, doesn't answer emails or the phone, and has a web order system that doesn't work. I found somebody else who does ultra-thin sugar cubes. They are supposed to arrive today along with the decoder.

Water tanks. I found some N-scale 3D prints of oval cross-section oil tanks, 275 gallons capacity. They were usually used for domestic oil-fired furnaces. Often found outside, I used to have one of these in the basement as Canadian winters would freeze the oil.  After some cutting and shutting, I  have two water tanks to go under the chassis of the E8A. Next time I'll just cut one into two and add some styrene rod in between. The replacement fuel tank is inert to regular or extra-strength Tamiya adhesive, as I found out when I extended it 1mm on each end with some styrene strips. I used CAA to put it all together. It's easier to work with 1 assembly instead of a fuel tank and 2 water tanks. I think it looks OK. I am still exploring how to attach the fuel/water tank assembly to the chassis. Couple of screws at each end of the fuel into the plastic chassis? That should leave enough room for the decoder. Fingers crossed.

A couple of photos below.

The fleet is on the increase. For sale on eBay yesterday was a nice looking life-Like FP-7A. The prototype was an EMD F-7A (Freight) factory equiped with a steam boiler for passenger train use (P).  They were used by the Southern Railway for freight and passenger trains in the 1950s and 1960s. In the late 1960s and early 1970s the Southern used 4 of these for summer and fall excusrion trains towing 2 passenger cars and an observation car. It's not often that an FP-7 comes up in N scale (or HO).  I immediately bought it as it's on my must have list.


Cheers,

Nigel

Hi All

I gave the fuel/water tanks a coat of black. Not too bad. One of those "OK from 3 feet". I have another E8A, I think I'll fit some water tanks to that one as well.

Up next - the roof. Air horn, radio antenna, air cooling coil over the cab, torpedoes. Then onto the DCC decoder and speaker installation. The prototypes often had twin steam boilers, I may have some spare fitments (air intake filter ) from another model.

Cheers,

Nigel

Cataracts or not Nigel - you're doing far better than I could.  I struggle to fit decoders and speakers in models twice that size !!
 

Petermac said

Cataracts or not Nigel - you're doing far better than I could.  I struggle to fit decoders and speakers in models twice that size !!
 

From “Post #291,789”, 13th March 2025, 3:53 am

Petermac is right. Your attention to detail is amazing.

Cheers,
Claus