Transplanting a DCC sound chassis into an older body shell

Hi All,

As promised, Part II. In this project I'm taking a perfectly good Broadway Limited Imports (BLI) Pennsylvania Rail Road (PRR) E7A chassis and transplanting it into a Life Like Southern Railway E7A body shell. This is usually a straightforward, easy DCC conversion, I did 2 Great Northern Railway and 2 Southern Railway conversions last year. BLI locomotives have a good reputation, smooth runners, good sound systems and very few problems. Unlke most manufacturers they keep a decent stock of spares.

The PRR E7A was sold under the Precision Scale label, a division of BLI that used ESU Lok Sound decoders (BLI used QSI decoders at the time). This was an eBay buy, $100 plus postage. DC tested, DCC not tested. A bargain if it works., objet d'art if it doesn't. There were some issues with "stuttering decoders" reported with these models, so fingers crossed. The BLI E7A came yeasterday, so I tested it it and popped the hood and inspected the innards this morning. It ran fine in both directions but the sound was not that great. It has an ESU Lok Sound V4 21-pin decoder. Those of you into DCC sound 12-13 years ago will recall some of the issues associated with the 21 pin wiring. I ran through the various function keys, everything seemed OK. The reason for the poor sound was clear to see. More on that tomorrow along with some photos.

The Life-Like E7A body shell was from the basket case Southern railway E7A. It has some missing steps, and the front coupler is seized, but apart from that it's in great condition. The steps can be replaced with brass etches. Some small modifications to the shell or the donor chassis are required to get a good fit, nothing complcated.

Cheers,

Nigel

In between coats of house paint I will try and follow along. At some stage I have several "dead" locos that are going to need to go into the workshops for an overhaul. I'm sure that I'll learn something from your "Messing around". thanks
 

Hi Marty,

"Messing around in N scale" required a more disciplined approach than I was using in HO scale. Some early Kato/Atlas models were never intended for DCC operation, posing additional challenges. Especially when it comes to having DCC sound. Split frame chassis usually only require motor isolation and finding a DCC board to replace the light board. I've yet to have a go at a Con-Cor locomotive.

My "easy way out" approach of using a body shell and a more modern DCC sound chassis is purely pragmatic - the 2 railroads I model are often not covered by the RTR manufacturers today. Many more models were covered in the 1970s-1980s, and the body details while not as extensive as modern models are fine for what I do. So I am using 3 approaches. Rewire an old model, update the chassis with a new or newer one, or strip the color scheme from a new model and repaint. One of my "railroads", the Great Northern, had a paint scheme in the late 1960s called Big Sky Blue. It was only used for 4 years but with a few exceptions, some examples of their diesel classes received it. Many of the models I am looking for are only covered by the RTR manufacturers in other railroad colors. I have a stack of them awaiting some decent weather so I can get outside and start airbrushing.

If you have North American stock and are contemplating older models check out Spookshow.net before parting with any money.

Cheers,

Nigel

Found this guy quite useful when I was looking for some old US outline locos a while back.


Watch this before buying a used Bachmann N Scale Locomotive! Trains with Shane Ep9

Watch this before buying a used Atlas N-scale diesel locomotive - Trains with Shane Ep23


Ed

 

Hi All,

Ed: Thanks for the links. Interesting, but it took me 5 minutes to realize he was talking about Kato (Ka_to, short a) when he kept saying Kay'do. I'm sure Mr. Kato would not have been amused.

Early Kato/Atlas motors (Mk1) can fail, there is a cradle that fits in either half of the split chassis with a central support for the shaft bearing that can fracture. Replacements are available, but getting the flywheel off needs a puller, which usually results in a shaft misalignment. And the Mk2 motor does not fit! Atlas? Unless it says DCC ready they're usually barge-pole models. Good for DC, PITA for DCC.  Those copper strips probably originated from Life-Like. Kader Industries owns Bachmann, they were originally based in Hong Kong. Their latest DCC and DCC sound models are good. Anything else is usually regarded as a toy train. Early models were noisy because they used brass gears. I have a used Bachmann Great Northern NW-2 switcher. It's a DCC silent locomotive. Great puller, top speed 45 mph, Forward/reverse lighting, $50. But no sound. Yet. I have a plan for that.

So onto my latest project - a BLI E7A DCC -sound chassis transplant. The donor is a Precision Craft (BLI) Pennsylvania E7A with a DCC sound chassis, the recipient is a Life-Like Southern Railway E6A body shell.  Why am I doing this? Southern Railway E6As with DCC sound are rare and expensive in N scale. The BLI Pennsylvania E7A was $100, the Life-Like Southern E6A locomotive was $20. If I can find a BLI or Kato Southern Railway E6A with DCC sound I will be looking at $200-$250.

So after test-running the donor E7A without any issues except for a low sound volume and a weak headlight, it was off with the body shell and a look-see inside. Photo 1 shows the shell and chassis. Photo 2 shows a close view of the chassis. Close inspection revealed the following: 1. A loose cab interior. A previous owner had tried to force the locating lugs into their holes (Photo 3). 2. The speakers were loose. They should have been fixed with adhesive tape, otherwise, the sound is not baffled and is muted (Photo 4). There are 2 speakers, 50 ohms each, and wired in series. 3. The decoder was not tightly fitted to the 21-pin board. The label on the decoder says it dates from 2018 (photo 5). My DCC controller says it's an ESU Lok Sound V4. There is also a stay-alive capacitor. Apart from the cab interior and the loose speakers, it's in great condition.

Photo 1. Pennsylvania body shell and chassis.


Photo 2, Close-up of chassis.

Photo 3. Loose cab interior. The headlight was out of alignment with the LED on the front of the cab interior and not being illuminated properly.

Photo 4. Loose speakers. The baffles should be airtight.

Photo 5. ESU Lok Sound decoder.

So will the chassis fit the body shell? Photo 6 shows the shells are almost identical in size. Unfortunately, some work on the body shell and/or the donor chassis is required. The body shell has the front coupler attached to the inside front of the pilot, the donor has the front coupler attached to the front of the chassis. There is a choice here: Get rid of the support in the body shell, or get rid of the chassis coupler and install a new coupler in the body shell. I normally get rid of the support, as a new coupler in the body shell means some metal removal from the front of the chassis. Photo 7 shows the offending coupler support that needs to be removed. I've found through 4 E6/7A and 2 SD-9 transplants that a cast chassis can vary in length, so there is no hard and fast rule about getting them to fit. it's a case of a smidgen off here, a touch there.

Photo 6. BLI and Life-Like body shells.

(Click to enlarge)

Photo 7. Life-Like E6A body shell coupler mount.

I use a pair of old Xurons and some Swiss files to get rid of the coupler mounting, making sure not to damage the headlight lens. Which is immediately above it. a job for tomorrow.

That's it for now. More to follow.

Cheers,

Nigel





 

Marty said

In between coats of house paint I will try and follow along. At some stage I have several "dead" locos that are going to need to go into the workshops for an overhaul. I'm sure that I'll learn something from your "Messing around". thanks
 

From “Post #291,232”, 29th January 2025, 2:55 am

Like Marty I try to follow along. In my case it is gardening taking up too much of my time.

Cheers,
Claus

Hi Claus,

No garden, more time for messing around with locomotives.

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi All,

The repairs to the cab are done (super glue), and the speakers are better located for the moment (electrical tape, some silicone sealer would be better). The coupler mount inside the front of the shell has gone, so is this project finished? No. Have a look at the photo of SOU 2800 and compare it with the Life-Like nose. The Life-Like E6A was modeled as straight from EMD in 1941. By the 1960s, there had been quite a few changes.


Reproduced by permission of Southern Railfan (Southern.railfan.net).


Going clockwise from the far top left we have:

Four roof-mounted air tanks, 2 on each side.
Five chime horns.
Roof-mounted hand grabs above the windscreens.
Firecracker radio antenna (between the grabs).
M.U. cable hatches on either side of the headlight.
The relocated and larger number plates. (these are also found on F units).
The marker lights are located just above the number plates on both sides. They were often plated over in the late 1960s.
Hood door with hand grabs either side.
The circular blanking plate on the door where the second headlight was.
The retractable step above the coupler.
The water level equalizing pipe end (just to the lower left of the coupler. This was to keep the steam generator water level uniform in the storage tanks between locomotives.
Four train pipes on each side of the pilot.
The foot ledge to the right of the crew member.
The additional water tank (tan color) between the front truck and the fuel tank. This is where the air tanks were previously located.

There is also a hint of a dynamic braking radiator fan to the left of the horns.

The windows were also changed from square to porthole when the E6As were upgraded to E9A specifications.

I better start ordering what I don't have, specifically the air tanks and the horns. The rest I have or can fabricate. Or just forget about it.

This picture was taken in the late 1960s. 2800 is in good condition for a locomotive getting on for 30 years old. The SOU herald is gone, just a ghostly hint beneath the paint.

Cheers,

Nigel







 

Ah, MU, Multiple Unit, got it.

Good lick with it Nigel.



Ed

Hi Ed,

Sorry. should really explain some of the abbreviations. There are 2 or 3 sets of connections when multiple locomotives are connected - the train lines, which control the air reservoirs and braking, the steam line, which could be found on passenger trains and some freight trains as well, and the MU lines, which synchronize engine performance and output when multiple diesel units are being used. Plus the dynamic braking, and the slip control adjusting the performance of the individual traction motors. The steam generator boilers were supposed to be automatic in operation. In reality, they often needed attention or running repairs. That's why they put doors on the ends of the E units, along with a step over the coupler. This must have been interesting for the engineer as E-units were usually geared for 100+ mph running. The passengers probably shivered until the next station stop.

"Forward dating" from the "as supplied by the manufacturer" is always interesting. Not visible from the photo are the spark arrestors over the engine exhausts. The Southern ran through some heavily forested terrain, forest fires were a real threat in dry weather (which is usually the winter). The Southern ran close to where I live in Virginia, heavily forested from here to Tennessee.

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi All,

It was a salutary lesson. I consulted a few books, used the magnifying lenses, took some photos, and enhanced them via software. Those "air tanks" on the roof of the E6a are not; they are cooling coils. It seems all E6As in the 1960s had them. I doubt I'll find ready-made in N scale, especially with Shapeways in transition, so it looks like some work with wire and thin brass sheets. 2 or 4 on each side. I found an article that used "magnet wire', presumably armature wire.

I found a 5-chime air horn in the spares. Looks Z-scale to my eyes, so still searching. I'll make some very thin blanking plates for the "second headlight" from thin styrene sheet using a leather eyelet cutter. MU panels and the door will also be from thin styrene sheet. Grab handles from phosphor bronze wire (I have  Bill Bedford jig somewhere).

Edit: And there's more. The fuel tank skirt had gone by the 19660s (easier access) and 2 water tanks , oval in shape and placed either side of the fuel tank had been added. That light tan I though was the water tank was simply fuel staining. Or rust. I am sorely tempted to get another body shell.

So far I have a 5-chime air horn, from a GP-9, and 2 torpedo air tanks.  Could be a while before I post again on this project. looks like I'll be making those roof-mounted radiators from scratch. Just need to find some photographs or plans. Failing that guesswork. With the ugrade to E8 standards egine HP was now around 2,400 from 2,000, extra cooling capacity for the engine oil was needed.

The Southern Railway gives the modeler some interesting choices - it used several color schemes and designs for its passenger diesels - chronologically green and grey, black and white (the "Tuxedo scheme"), then finally green and grey again. I have an E9A in the Tuxedo sheme, that is probably a better candidate for a full-blown aging conversion. I'll take some photos and find one of what it looked like in the 1960s-1970s. Probably better if i have a new post on this.

Cheers,

Nigel
 

Hi All,

Brief absence (eye surgery) and some pondering. The more I look at the Southern Railway E6A (and E6B - no cab and B for booster) the more dissatisfied I am with offerings from Life-Like, BLI, Kato, and everybody who has ever made these models. Going back to an unfinished HO E7A forward-dating project I see my notes went into great detail. And pretty much the same issues I am having now. I have a great DCC sound chassis courtesy of Msrrs. BLI, and a body shell that needs much work. Déja vu. Turns out it is a LOT more than I detailed above. So, a plan of action is called for:

1. I bought an E6A/B Life-Like set on eBay. This is in Santa Fe yellow and will be a trial effort in forward dating before I dive into getting that Southern E6A looking like it was pulling a passenger train in the mid-1960s, not the early 1940s. The first job when the set arrives is stripping the paintwork (99% IPA for a few days, new soft toothbrush).

I am currently trying to find out what those radiators on the roof were for. If you look carefully there is a set at the front and end of the body without radiator vanes. The 2 sets in the middle have a smaller diameter pipe and rectangular vanes. I am a member of several Southern Railway groups, and so far all I have is "air cooling". Hmm. I don't think so. The reference book I have says "oil cooling". I may have to go to Chattanooga, TN, to the Southern Railway Historical Association, and go through the archives. My best guess is that the front and rear are air-cooling coils (but why?), and the ones in the middle are oil coolers (again but why?).  I think I know why but that needs confirming. I have found a good photograph (an original, not a scan with reduced definition) of a Southern Railway E6a in the 1960s that should allow me to make a decent representation of the 2 types. It was taken at an angle of 45°, so I'll have to make some perspective corrections. I have an article on how to do this somewhere. It's been a long time since I did trigonometry. I seem to remember I can get Corel Draw to do this automatically with a perspective function.

The skirt over the fuel tanks has to go, and modifications to the pilot and cab front are also needed. Those square windows on the side were replaced with round portholes, and several ventilation louvers/grilles were added. I have some HO-scaled grilles that work well in N scale, but I will have to remove the windows and replace them with polystyrene sheets, metal grilles, and portholes. Decidedly fiddly, and very little room for error. I'm probably better off removing the whole section with the windows, replacing it with a polystyrene sheet, and then drilling the portholes and cutting the sections for the grilles. All of the E6A/Bs and some of the E7As had rooftop cooling units. No E8As though. Hey ho and away we go. Rabbit hole stuff.

2. I also bought a Life-Like E8A in Southern green and aluminum grey. That also needs some work. Nothing too complicated, essentially adding 4 air tanks and piping to the roof, removing the 2 air tanks from the side of the fuel/water tanks, adding 2 new water tanks on either side of the existing fuel/water tank, getting rid of the skirts, and modifying the cab front. Piece of cake (in theory!). The Southern did this to all of their E8As and most of their E7As. Why? Increased water capacity for the steam heat boilers. The Southern Railway had some long-distance trains - Washington DC to New Orleans, Cincinnati to Jacksonville, Florida, they tried to avoid stops for water. I'll post a photo of one when I get copyright permission.

These locomotives were around $40 each, so I am not too concerned about messing one up beyond redemption. Planning only at the moment, as I must not generate dust. I can make a start on stripping the body shells of the Santa Fe units though! More lead weights though.

That's the plan for the moment. Subject to change of course.

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi All,

I looked at another book on Southern Railway diesels that I received yesterday. It has some nice topside photos of E6A, E7A, and E8A pipework with decent resolution. The first photo is of E6A 2802 in October 1963, the second is of 2902 in January 1965. In the first there are no cooling coils at the ends, in the second there is the full complement of ends and middle. The photographs were taken in Danville and Lynchburg, VA. Other photographs in the book show there were 2 sets of square vanes on each side of the coiling coil. Note the interconnection of the front and rear cooling coils. Out to one side, cross connection to the other side, then back in. Are the front ones air cooling coils for the electrical cabinet located below where they come in and out of the roof?  And are those rear ones for the electrical cabinet for the steam generator plant in the rear? Just guessing at the moment. This book also states that the E6 and E7A engines were uprated from 2000 to 2250 hp (2 x 1.125 hp, a 12.5%increase) in the 1950's. From the dates of the conversion, they were still using Rootes blowers. Boosting the output of the 567 engine usually required modification to the cooling water gallery in the engine and larger radiators, this may explain those extra radiators on the roof. Whatever their role, it's going to make for some interesting modeling. Fiddly though. At least my eyesight is up for it. Not too sure about the fingers though. Using photos from books is not ideal, magnification usually show how dotty they are.


Cheers,

Nigel

A small part of the photos in the book "Southern Railway Diesel Locomotives and Trains, 1950-1982, Volume 1, by Curt Tillotson, Jr. (pages 9 and 10, TLC Publishing Inc., Lynchburg, VA, 2003) is reproduced. The publisher states that brief excerpts used in reviews, etc., do not require permission to reproduce. I confirm that I am using these excerpts in the interests of research and education. That said, it looks like the business no longer exists, and I cannot find any copyright transfer. Mr. Tillotson, Jr. died in 2007. I suspect TLC was Mr. Tillotson, Jr.'s company.

Hi All,

The E6A and E6B testers came today. That surprised me as we have had a fair amount of snow overnight. I took the bodies off and put the chassis to one side. I like 1:160 diesels, the chassis is a pressure fit in the body shell, and it takes 10 seconds to separate. The body shells are now in 99% isopropyl alcohol for a 48-hour soak. Then I can make a start on the body shell modifications. If all goes well the green E6A will be next.

Only the A unit is powered, the B unit has a dummy chassis, no electrical wipers, motor, flywheels, shafts, or worms/gears. That is interesting and opens up another possibility: using the A/B units as a dedicated pair, putting a DCC sound decoder and 2 speakers in the B unit, and running the 4 power wires from the A unit to the B unit (red, black, orange, grey. Putting one speaker in the A unit would only need 2 wires and a flat sugar cube (ESU LokSound does one). The electrical contacts are on the trucks of the B unit, so if I wire them I would have electrical pickup from both the A and B unit. No need for capacitors. This is the same as wiring a steam locomotive for DCC with the decoder/speaker in the tender, and I've done a few of those over the years. There is enough room in that dummy shell for an HO/OO-sized decoder and a decent speaker. Or a symphony orchestra.

Looking at the dates of the various colors the Southern used these units will have the black and white with gold lining scheme used in the 1960s (the "Tuxedo"). Those curves on the front will be interesting.

Picture of the shells and chassis below.

Cheers,

Nigel






 

Hi All,

I checked the UP E6A/B shells this morning, the paint was lifting, so I cleaned them up with a soft-bristle toothbrush, followed with a wash with hot water and dish washing liquid, and a rince with cold water. The square side windows fell off, the windshield windows and headlight lens are still in place.

The photo shows the work to be done. Handrails and grabs are not shown. There are a lot.

1. Add a step over the coupler.
2. Add a blanked second headlight (from a scrap body shell), and cut opening for the door.
3. Remove the number boards and replace them with  F-unit 45° angle number boards.
4. Remove horns and replace them with a 5-chime Nathan horn.
5. Remove ventilators, add framing, and replace grill mesh with chicken wire. That's what they did in the 1960s.
6. Remove the body panel with square windows and replace it with a new panel with ventilation grills and portholes.
7. Remove skirts except for the section with fillers and gauges.
8. Add cooling coils to the roof.


As above for the B-unit except steps 1-3.

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi All,

There has been a slight (ha!) change in plans. It was one of those "well I never" moments. It pays to think twice and cut once (or not). The body shell has some internal ribs, and cutout #6 goes through them. So, to avoid any instability, I'm using thin, oversized black styrene sheets inside and pieces of thicker black styrene cut to size outside. Tamiya white body putty will fill in any gaps. Waiting for the inside patches to out-gas for 48 hours.

The donor shell that I will be using for the lower headlight and a second air intake for another steam generator is soaking in 99% IPA, paint removal tomorrow. It's an E5A, with no real differences in the body shell. It came with an E5B, that I will use as another E6B.

I now have a clear photograph of an E6A with great detail on the roof coils. Measurements tomorrow. I'm trying to get copyright permission to reproduce it. it's not easy when the photographer is dead.

An E8A in Southern Green and light grey with a gold stripe arrived in the mail. It has round portholes, but no air tanks or cooling coils on the roof. It's a Life-Like, so a new chassis is needed.

Cheers,

Nigel

Hi All,

I have a mix of E's waiting for the solvent to degas before I put some portholes in them. One needs a pilot, hopefully, BLI has one. I'll give it a few more days to finish out-gassing, Photo below shows the production line. An E5A + an E5B (the body was identical to the E6 A + B), and an E6A + B. I did find a photo of an updated E6A with rectangular windows, so I'll leave that one alone.

This thread is getting busy, so the next little project - forward dating a Life-Like Southern Railway E8A to the mid-1960s from the late 1940s (and correcting some errors) is on a separate thread.

Cheers,

Nigel

S ee Part III.

Hi All,

I decided to continue with the grey shells. I'll use the other 2 for spares. The styrene patches have finished adhesive solvent out-gassing, so I filled any gaps with Tamiya white putty, waited 24 hours for the xylene solvent to out-gas, sanded down, and drilled some portholes. i also filled the holes where the 2 horns were located. I also added a second headlight. This will be covered with a patching plate.I'll finish off with some #800 W/D and then think about those radiators on the roof. It's an AB set,  I'll paint them black with a grey stripe, and get them lettered. I have a couple of spare E6 chassis I can use to get them running.

The next job is patching the windows and drilling portholes for the green and grey E6A. I will need some Southern Green acrylic paint.

Windows. I'll back with some thin transparent styrene, and fill the holes with canopy glue, which drys transparent.

Photos below.

Cheers,

Nigel





 

Nice modelling - and good eyesight with steady hands. 

Thanks. I wish. Recent cataract surgery means it's a guess with detailed work until I get a new prescription, and peripheral neuropathy means the brain says one thing, and the hands do their own thing. Sometimes. Lots of "well, I never" moments. The scale doesn't mean anything. I'm finding it easier in N than in HO or OO. More material to deal with when bashing. N is quite forgiving when getting it wrong.

Moving on though. A few more details and a coat of paint to see whether I should continue with the additional E6A and E6B or move on to the green and grey E6A. It would be nice to have the extra 6A/B. I have the chassis. The work on the E8A will tell me whether adding a decoder and sound is more cost-effective than a replacement DCC sound chassis.