[user=711]col.stephens[/user] wrote:

Good question Ed.  Hadn't thought of that!  However, the answer is easy, just paint it with some shellac varnish, available in a store near you in a bottle named 'french polish'. That should do the trick.

Terry

Not exactly cheap Terry.

Going back to foam, I've read about the problem you mentioned with the old foam underlay turning to dust. Don't know if the current version still sold and used does the same.

The EVA foam I use is similar to that used in exercise mats and running shoes. One of the shoe manufacturers estimates you need to run 500 miles before the cells stay compressed and you need to change the shoes.

Since I'm not going to run around my track I suspect my foam underlay will outlast me and probably last longer than cork as well, which eventually turns brittle and crumbles.

I'll let you know if I come back in a future life and can find what remains of my layout


Ed

Terry, I think you might be getting 'Closed-cell Foam' mixed up with the foam underlay that Peco produce. 

Peco foam is 'open-cell' and does, as you say, turn to dust over a very short time. Closed-cell Foam is an entirely different product made from entirely different materials and which has many industrial uses, apart from railway modelling. It has only become available to us modellers in the last 7 or 8 years and, so far, I have never heard any reports of it degrading the way Peco foam does.

I suspect corrugated cardboard may be worse than the baseboard itself - no experience of it but just my thinking.  Try drumming your fingers on a sheet of the stuff and see what happens - better still, try it on a box - it's almost as good as a real drum ……..:roll::roll::roll:

In 2002/2003, I built a US N scale layout based on one done by a staff member of Model Railroader magazine. The base was a hollow core door with folding legs attached.

I then covered it with a sheet of polystyrene home insulation board. For trackbed, I used the Woodland Scenics foam product. I did all the gluing using artist's matt medium. I even glued the track down with it, just holding it in place with pins until the glue was set.

That same board is sitting in my shed, right now. The foam board is still glued to the door, with no change to it other than dings and dents from being moved to different homes a few times. I used it for a small HO switching/test layout for a short time.

I removed most of the track and foam trackbed over the years, but the ballasted section is still on it, and also shows no deterioration. The non ballasted track and foam trackbed I removed years ago is still doing service on a friends layout.

Using the insulation foam board allowed things like culverts, drainage ditches, etc.., to be cut into the surface very easily.

I realize N rolling stock would not create as much noise as larger scale items would, but sound deadening was excellent, and hardly noticeable when I had HO stock running on it.

Using the above might have cost me a bit more that some other methods, but based on the longevity, I'd go the same route again.

Just a FWIW :)

Jim F

[user=1338]Ed[/user] wrote:

I think to a degree you're both right and I must agree with Terry about "the trap of following the herd" and automatically using cork.

My track was originally laid straight on the board (which I am led to believe is what quite a lot of people do), using Copydex.

It's only because I wanted 'rod in tube' point control and needed to raise the track by a couple of millimetres that I had to use some sort of underlay.

Cork was far too expensive for me, so I used EVA foam (Funky Foam), stuck to the board with PVA and the track then stuck to the foam with Copydex.

(Comes in rather bright colours, but I just paint it).



Ed

Ed, I wasn't referring to using cork.  My point was that beginners were probably following the herd and covering the whole baseboard thinking that this is the norm.  Personally, after about fifty years in the hobby I hadn't heard of anybody doing it until fairly recently on this forum.  Apart from Bittern's explanation regarding covering the whole baseboard because he can't access the underside for point rodding, wiring, etc., nobody has explained why you would want to waste your money in covering the whole baseboard with cork, foam, or anything else. It just seems to be a waste of time and money from what I can see.  But I am willing to change my mind if someone can explain the benefits of covering the whole baseboard.  Yours sceptically…

Terry

My only reason for covering the whole board was for sound insulation Terry.

I did boob by using PVA to stick it down and, as Trevor says, PVA rather negates the insulation properties of the cork …………

If you only put cork under the track, then ballast using PVA to stick the ballast down, you create a "sound bridge", via the hard ballast, from track to baseboard.  If the board is totally covered first, the bridge is from track to cork - the board is still sound insulated - QED. :cheers

Peter, I agree about the PVA problem but why not cover just the trackbed with cork, stuck down with Copydex? Why is it necessary to cover the whole board?  Wouldn't it be the same for noise reduction, or am I missing something? 

Terry

[user=946]Chinahand[/user] wrote:

Terry, I think you might be getting 'Closed-cell Foam' mixed up with the foam underlay that Peco produce. 

Peco foam is 'open-cell' and does, as you say, turn to dust over a very short time. Closed-cell Foam is an entirely different product made from entirely different materials and which has many industrial uses, apart from railway modelling. It has only become available to us modellers in the last 7 or 8 years and, so far, I have never heard any reports of it degrading the way Peco foam does.

Trevor, re the closed-cell foam.  I understood that the rolls of dark grey foam being sold and used, especially by P4 modellers, back in the 1970s or 1980's was the same stuff.  Can someone enlighten me at to what that foam was? 

Terry

 

[user=711]col.stephens[/user] wrote:

[user=1338]Ed[/user] wrote:

I think to a degree you're both right and I must agree with Terry about "the trap of following the herd" and automatically using cork.

My track was originally laid straight on the board (which I am led to believe is what quite a lot of people do), using Copydex.

It's only because I wanted 'rod in tube' point control and needed to raise the track by a couple of millimetres that I had to use some sort of underlay.

Cork was far too expensive for me, so I used EVA foam (Funky Foam), stuck to the board with PVA and the track then stuck to the foam with Copydex.

(Comes in rather bright colours, but I just paint it).



Ed

Ed, I wasn't referring to using cork. 

Terry

I was.

It's expensive, which is why a lot of wine bottles now have screw caps or plastic stoppers!

As for covering the whole baseboard I initially didn't intend to, but like Bittern I needed to run point rodding and cables on the surface and I have quite a nice patchwork of colours now. (Must get the grey paint out).

You may also need to add underlay to get building and platform heights correct, so I can understand why it's done.

It's also easier to stick a bit of A4 size foam down and then cut out what's  not needed than cut a piece to size for under a platform.

Petermac's mention of sound proofing is also very valid, however I'm not sure how much base board noise would be heard if you had three DCC sound chipped locos all running at the same time.

As to what the original foam underlay was, no idea. Bits I've seen look remarkably like the old draught excluder we used to get.


Ed




 

My baseboards are made from hollow core doors and the ply "skin" of the doors is quite hard so I've given them a first covering of cheap fibrebourd underlay. In most places I'll probably also put in a track bed , but the fibre underlay gives me a softer surface to work with, means I can dig out in some areas to give a variation in depth….and also Bed in buildings , bridges walls etc so you don't see that odd gap you sometimes Get when a building is plonked "on" to the surface. I think Tom got his sheets of Cork from Poland ? For less than he would have paid for strips over here…so why not cover all ?

Cardboard crushes under pressure and doesn't really recover so acidently leaning on your trackbed while reaching over the layout would  would probably wreck it ?

 Cheers

   Matt

If you only use cork for the track bed Terry, when you ballast it, the ballast will be around the sleepers then down the "shoulder" formed by the cork track bed then - it will make contact with the baseboard at the bottom edge of the shoulder…………..:roll::roll::roll::roll:

Noise will travel via the rails to the solid ballast and via that ballast to the baseboard - that's the "sound bridge" I spoke of. :thumbs

Covering the whole board with cork, then adding the cork track bed means there will be no physical contact between rail and baseboard - there will be a sound deadening cork barrier between the two (unless you stick it down with PVA …………:???:)

Ed - It's not actually the cost of cork that led to the introduction of screw caps and plastic corks on wine bottles.  It was because cork, being a "live" vegetable product breathes and, in the worst case scenarios, the wine would either oxidise or be contaminated by the cork itself leading to that disgusting taste of "corked" wine.  I suspect it will be a long time before you see a half-decent claret or the likes with plastic stoppers or screw tops …………………:roll:

I do however, take your point about sound locos but it is a different sound to the drumming caused by metal wheels on metal tracks being amplified by timber skinned baseboards.  It's interesting but you don't get the same noise problems with "open topped" baseboards ………… 

[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:

Ed - It's not actually the cost of cork that led to the introduction of screw caps and plastic corks on wine bottles.  It was because cork, being a "live" vegetable product breathes and, in the worst case scenarios, the wine would either oxidise or be contaminated by the cork itself leading to that disgusting taste of "corked" wine.  I suspect it will be a long time before you see a half-decent claret or the likes with plastic stoppers or screw tops …………………:roll:

I do however, take your point about sound locos but it is a different sound to the drumming caused by metal wheels on metal tracks being amplified by timber skinned baseboards.  It's interesting but you don't get the same noise problems with "open topped" baseboards ………… 

I suspect it will be a long time (if ever) before I see a half-decent claret and wasn't the foil cap over the cork supposed to help prevent oxidisation.

I still think 'drumming' noise has a lot to do with baseboard materials/construction and the size of the layout.

Getting back to Terry's original point, there does seem to be a view that the entire baseboard needs initially to be covered with expensive cork for no apparent advantage "(Bittern's comments above excepted)".


Ed

Or, as Owen has done, with much cheaper floor underlay fibre boards ..................:roll::roll:

Same board as I used Peter .. 16 sheets , 860mm x 600mm  x8 mm. £18 from B&Q. I got a slight damaged pack (nicks out of some edges ) for £ 10 covered my baseboards and have 5 sheets left to break in to prices and layer up for hills or rock faces etc. Also if you run it through a blender it makes a cheap scatter material ( its green ) to use as a base which you can then  cover with more expensive proprietary scatter  materials…just don't let the Mrs catch you with her mini chopper / blender, they hurt as they bounce off your head…on the plus side they are cheap to replace !

   


Cheers

    Matt

Plenty of roughage in the soup tho'

Going slightly off topic - now there's a suprise, I have mixed used coffee grounds, mixed in with flocks, espcially some of the brighter greens, it gives a nice just after the rain look, when the grass and mud colours are more vivid.

Paul

I have two jars of dried tea from used teabags,  I have sieved it through a tea strainer and have a jar of fine tea and a jar of the more coarse tea. I was thinking of using them for some kind of ground cover. The coarse stuff would make nice fallen dead leaves around the base of a tree.

Terry

Hi All  Gauge oo cork point underlay, why on earth is it so expensive to lay one point?? and can anyone suggest an alternative??             Passed Driver

What do you mean by cork point underlay?  Why not just cut some cork to the shape of the point from a larger sheet which can also be used for plain track?

Terry

Have a look at cork tiles, they are often self adhesive, the finer grain is better.

I use 5mm green insulation foam £18 for 5sq m from B&Q

SELIT 5mm Extruded polystyrene (XPS) foam Laminate flooring Underlay panels | DIY at B&Q

Has a foil layer, that peels off. Stick it down with pva - dont use solvents. Acrylic paints work on it ok.

Paul