That seems a very crude looking setup Jim. :???::shock:

I honestly don't remeber how they fed the overheads in Leeds but assumed it was via the span wires which were insulated rather like today's railway overheads …………………:roll::roll::roll:

Like I said Peter, looks like someone has tried to touch up the picture…………………………….and failed Badly:shock:
The picture gives the impression of being in the 40s so perhaps there was a lack of materials or less skilled labour was used. Also remember that this was based on late 19th or very early 20th century technology.
Tramway overhead is a single catenary unlike railway where the power cable is hung from the catenary. Presumably to keep it flat and prevent a wave building up in the wire and causing whiplash at the fixing point and wire breaks due to metal fatigue at that point. So on tramway the connection must be direct.
Have a look at the picture below  for some tramway suspension ears, particularly at the top of the picture.

Copyright unknown. Used for illustration purposes only.
Copyright holder please contact for full credit.

Hope this is useful
Jim

This photo has been removed after a complaint from the copyright holder.

The Saga continues.
After making up one of Peter Watsons excellent little tram shelters in blue for my brother in law I decided to custom build a Glasgow shelter for later use on Glebe Street. The result is below and as I will probably need more than one I did it as a .PDF so I could store and reproduce it.
The main snag is that this board will not allow the posting of .PDF files so if you want one of these, people caught buses outside of railway stations, you need to PM me with your email address.



Regards
Jim

Peter
This is off topic as the trams are white metal but you should be interested.





And there is a Middleton bogie as well. Get them here
http://www.tramwayinfo.com/Defmajestic.htm
Regards
Jim.

Thanks for the link Jim :thumbs

I'm a member of the "Tramway and Light Railway Society" so there's a connection with the "Tramway Info" site.

A guy called Mark Casson - another "Leeds tram" enthusiast is having several of the Leeds models 3D printed by Shapeways.  He's got some good stuff although I haven't tried anything yet.  Spare time always seems to be a big problem to me ………..:twisted::twisted:

Hi Peter
I am currently attempting to master AutoCad 3d, as I already have the drawings for the Glasgow trams, so that I can get some stuff from Shapeways. Turns out it's easier to start from scratch.
Is Mark on the board as I would like to ask about Shapeways as the site is designed to get you to sign up before giving you any of the important info?

Regards
Jim

Hi Guys
I’m not certain where this is supposed to go, Members layouts or here in the Paper and card Trams thread so if Petermac in his role of moderator will inform me of the correct location I will either expand on this or move it.

I have been asked about a full size layout. What size, track plan, construction, name etc? So this is intended to start answering some of those questions and as an aid to firming up ideas that I have. My resources are limited and having just worked my way through the “Bears End” and got deeply into the “Newcastle Emlyn” threads I am gratified that some kind people think that my efforts are worth recording. However as I said with the limited resources available this could be a long haul.
First up is a description of the differences between tramway and railway layouts and the differing problems tramway modellers face. I don’t need to go into those faced by railway modellers as the words “grandma, eggs and suck” spring to mind so I’ll outline only those specific to tramway.

Let’s start with the track
 It looks like tramway modellers get a better deal. Really tight curves so you can squeeze more into a given size of baseboard and you can use any old track and plaster over it to hide the defects and ballasting is eliminated.
Only……. if you are not doing current tramway you will need to either cover your road surface with cobbles by gluing printouts on to the street or by scribing each cobble. Cobbles are 4mm X 2mm at 00 scale and a double track width of road is roughly 110 mm between pavements. That is a LOT of cobbles if your layout has 5 linear metres of double track. I suppose that you’ll want to be able to have junctions or sidings so points are a necessity but they are going to be somewhere in the range of 150mm radius, be custom built and, if you are following actual practice, have only one moving tongue as a guide. Normal turnouts and slips are not too bad despite the sharp angle that the rails cross but at a T junction or Grand Junction things get….. interesting. Have a look at the drawing below. It’s a grand junction and gives you an idea of the size and scale of trackwork since it measures 40 X 40 centimetres and to build it I have to print it out on 4 sheets of A4. There are 16 points and if I think about wiring it in two rail (as opposed to overhead and twin rail return), my head hurts.



  So now you know why I’m going to use twin earth return & overhead. The last point is that once I have decided where the track is going to go I am stuck with it as it will be covered in with some form of road surface. A major point regarding trackwork is that it can not be thought about on its own. I need to allow for the overhead and how to support it. Of course just to make things difficult tram track is U shaped and almost impossible to obtain so a method of representing this needs to be decided on.
So on to the overhead.
Now some people will be modelling contemporary railways and you can get working overhead at a price. However tramway overhead is a single catenary wire with a very gentle curve and no supporting wire above it. It is also hung from a bewildering selection of supporting poles. My own poles are built from 4 diameters of brass tube which are a sliding fit inside each other with 3 tubes for the standard and the fourth for the span arm the overhead is attached to. Finding pictures of the span poles is very difficult as they were rarely the subject of a picture as the tram was the focus and where they are shown they tend to blend in with the background.

 See what I mean and I was attempting to show the pole.



And for those who have read some of my previous posts and are wondering,  this is a 2 foot section of track I had in my father in laws bookcase with a Blackpool standard as a working diorama. It originally had a high street scene but it had got badly damaged and when I found Scalescenes site there was a free set of low relief industrial units which I used as my introduction to card building building.
These days I tend to think of it as Provenmill industrial estate. You can see the three sections of tube and the span pole.



Glasgow tended to make use of wall rosettes to fix span wires to but as the nature of tramway modelling tends to have only one side of the street, [well you WANT to see the trams don’t you?], I will need to work out how to fix span wires to cardboard buildings on one side with the span poles on the other. I think that this will involve tenements with plywood or real tree backings.
So on with the motley. Having had various ideas and plans I now think I have a track plan but until I get the baseboard in there are a few, let’s bung this on the board and see if it works areas.

As I said before I have space and finance issues, e.g.  Not a lot of either, so my baseboard will have to be made from whatever I can find, or as the Americans put it “Dumpster Diving. Luckily it will be cantilevered out on brackets fixed to a wall so as long as I get the “street” level can get away with It.
The baseboard(s) will be going here :-

Right (North) side ,


Left (South) side,


And might end up looking like this,
 
I’ll leave it there for now except to say that the eventual layout will be “Glebe Street” and the Sunday Post can accept it as a tribute.
 
Regards
Jim

This looks exciting Jim. ;-)

It would be better to start a new thread in the "Member's Layout" section - call it "Glebe Street" if that's the final name.

You could always push the boat out and use "Electric Avenue" track from "Proto 87" in the States - http://proto87.co.uk/electric-avenue-tram-streetcar-track.shtml - it looks just the job but wheels need to be fine scale otherwise the trams will run on their wheel rims.  Much cheaper than the old "Orr" track which is now made in Sweden I think.

To me, the big advantage of using powered overheads is that it leaves all 4 wheels on the tram for the same electrical contact.  Having 2 wheel pick-up and 2 wheel return needs perfect track !!!

We've discussed this before but will you have bow collectors or pole ?

[user=1339]The Bankie[/user] wrote:

Hi Peter
I am currently attempting to master AutoCad 3d, as I already have the drawings for the Glasgow trams, so that I can get some stuff from Shapeways. Turns out it's easier to start from scratch.
Is Mark on the board as I would like to ask about Shapeways as the site is designed to get you to sign up before giving you any of the important info?

Regards
Jim

Hi Jim
I am using Shapeways a lot and would be glad to give you any info you need.

Hi Peter

It would be better to start a new thread in the "Member's Layout" section - call it "Glebe Street" if that's the final name.  

Fine by me. Only a couple of points,
Do I delete/cut & paste, or leave this where it is and repeat it?
This is likely to be sporadic so I was uncertain as to whether to put it up yet.

We've discussed this before but will you have bow collectors or pole ?

Glasgow used bow collectors from about the 1940s or earlier so it will be bow collectors as this fits with the 50s 60s scene.

To me, the big advantage of using powered overheads is that it leaves all 4 wheels on the tram for the same electrical contact.  Having 2 wheel pick-up and 2 wheel return needs perfect track !!!

To me the big advantage is that section isolation including the pointwork, can be done by simple (and CHEAP) rail breaks. DCC would be nice but apart from individual running there is no advantage to it as I do not know of any sound chips for trams.

You could always push the boat out and use "Electric Avenue" track from "Proto 87" in the States

Yes and no, I researched this and whilst it's superb stuff which you glue directly onto the baseboard it comes in tiny sections. I believe that you got some and commented on it's size. Besides, as you would suspect, I have my own ideas there.

Regards
Jim

Hi Wizmacnz

Thanks for the offer.
I would like to know what the surface finish is like, trams have lots of flat panels, and what paint adhesion is like?
They say they will take you through the process and give you a small finished product. What size is this and could it be a fret like an etching?
Can we continue this on an open thread as I'm certain it will interest many people?

Regards
Jim

PS I take it you are the one on the left in your avatar picture.

Hi Jim
Yes that's me on the left!

I didn't strike upon the free print deal so I don't know how that works…. (that's a good start).
You have a choice of materials to produce your product in at Shapeways.  The cheapest is what they call white, strong and flexible. It is made by zapping very fine nylon powder with a laser to melt it.  The final product does have grainy texture, but can be painted and sanded to a smooth finish. Not good if you have lots of raised surface detail. 

The most commonly used material for what you are contemplating is a material called Frosted Ultra Detail. This has a smooth surface but can be left with a bit of a waxy residue after the printing process. This has to be cleaned off if you want to get paint to stick. There seem to be a few favourite recipes, but I have used warm water and washing up liquid successfully. Unfortunately this is about three times the price of the white and flexible at the moment. 

I don't think there's any downside to signing up with Shapeways. It doesn't cost anything unless you order something to be printed. Once signed up you can upload your models and the system tells you whats wrong with them. It's a pretty nifty automated process that graphically shows you if you have got "walls" modeled  too thin for the material you want to print in. 

Have a look on shapeways and see what others in the model fraternity are making, and what with and you will get a good idea of what can be done.  

A cross over of this type in action:
http://www.youtube.com/v/AndtnhjvnSA?version=3

Are you tram fans members of the "Tramway and Light Railway Society" ?

If not, it's money very well spent.

Tramway & Light Railway Society - TLRS

I pay £14 per year as an "Old man overseas" member and the magazine alone is, IMHO,  worth twice that.  Loads of information on both modelling them and the real thing from all over the world.

Hi Peter.

Not at the moment. Too many societies, not enough bank balance. That's why Glebe street is being built from recycled bits.

Regards
Jim

I am and find the magazine worth. Like a lot of these regionalised societies Yorkshire seems not to have a local group which means a trek to Lancashire.

I suppose the local reaction to the tram proposal in Leeds a few years ago say it all about tram awareness in these parts.

David

Hi Peter

You said

A guy called Mark Casson - another "Leeds tram" enthusiast is having several of the Leeds models 3D printed by Shapeways.  He's got some good stuff although I haven't tried anything yet.  Spare time always seems to be a big problem to me

Have you got a contact for him?

Regards
Jim

I don't have any special contact details Jim - he's a member of the Facebook and Yahoo Tram Modelling groups.

If you Google "Grime Street" - you'll find lots of references for him including "Grime Street Industries" where he markets his models.  He's also got an excellent blog running on RMWeb.

Many thanks  Peter
Jim

Tram loco rather than tram car. A solution to a problem posed on the Narrow Gauge forum - what to do with an odd 060 chassis.

My tram loco solution.



David

PS Model tram show at Manchester was great. cannot say same about weather though.