Please help me decide

I've been thinking long and hard recently about my 'under construction' layout in OO and wondering whether to swap over to N before I get too far with this. There are many reasons for this and I have outlined a few below. What I'm after is the thoughts and/or concerns of others on here. I know some others have done it and I have read a few threads regarding N including the one started by Diesel from whom I've borrowed a picture below, I do hope that's ok mate?

Anyway, some of my reasons to swap are as follows:
When I started my OO layout I wanted to have a 4 track roundy roundy but could only manage that for about 90% of the layout. It goes down to 3 where it goes over the stairs. With N it should fit easily.
I want a lot on my layout. A main station, a rural/country station, a TMD, a big fiddle/storage yard, a decent scenic area. With the space I have, around 15' x 15' this looks rather crowded in OO. In N it should be a doddle, I think.
I could probably incorporate an incline and a higher level section, possibly leading to the rural station. My layout is rather flat and I don't like that. If I go to N gauge I may even add a completely new base level say 6" on top of the current boards so I can build in a river somewhere by cutting away the newer top level to have the river underneath, maybe a couple of roads diving under the tracks. I could cut part of it away along 1 side to create an embankment with the track on top of it.
I currently have 2x HST sets with 5 coaches. These only just fit 'straight' on a couple of sides of the current layout. With N I could run full length 7 or 8 coach sets.

Things I need advice on or even some concerns if you like:
What is the suggested minimum length/ratio for an incline in N?
What's the best track to use?
I've looked around at the range of stock available and have to say that Chris of KMRC seems to show the best range of what I want to run. I want to stay with the same era of blue with yellow ends and blue/grey coaching stock although I may be able to run into large logo and swallow/executive livery too if necessary with Railfreight also a possibility. My main concern is the locos. There doesn't seem to be much of a range of for example class 50's in blue. In fact I can only find 50 033 by Farish, do others get released occassionally or is it easier to re-number/name using Fox transfers?
I see both Farish and Dapol make coaches to suit my era, is there much difference between the 2 manufacturers? Could rakes be mixed?
DCC is obviously an option but decoders are more limited it seems and generally more expensive, which decoders are recommended and are N locos generally DCC ready these days? Are the decoders easy to fit in such a small space? Is sound available? Also, how many locos can run at the same time from say a Hornby Elite which I currently have?
I have quite a few SEEP point motors, unused, can these be used on N gauge? I didn't fit point motors when I laid the OO track but will do with the N gauge if I make the 'switch' to N.
Some N gauge rakes of coaches I have seen seem to have a sideways 'wobble' when running. Is this due to the track laying or is it quite 'normal'?
Are the range of both plastic and card buildings (and even rolling stock if you like) up to the standard of OO? My intention would be to use these and modify them so they don't look too 'train set'.
On this subject I'm planning to drive up to Cheltenham Model Centre this week as they have a decent range to view from what I remember and also a fair bit of second hand stuff. It's about 50 miles from me in Devizes but as this is a big decision I don't mind doing that. I may even see if they have a few coaches/wagons and some track which I can buy second hand to put on my current boards just to see if I think it will work and I still like it. Unless of course someone knows somewhere closer to me which will serve the same purpose. Ideally it would be good to see a layout but there aren't many of those around in shops these days.
Are there many road vehicles available to use in N gauge?
Are all couplings like the one shown below? Again, I hope diesel doesn't mind. I think they look a bit ugly but if I'm running set formations then I suppose you'd hardly see them when coupled up. The couplings on the rear wagon/coach of a rake could be removed.


Finally, I have far too much stock, buildings etc in OO so this would be a good chance to sell it all off and start again buying only things which I will use immediately rather than stockpiling it for future use but never being able to find anything! I'm not too sure how I would go about selling it yet but I could do it as a combination between on here and on ebay. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm being greedy but I would want a reasonable price for it especially as I've been out of work for the last 5 months and the N gauge project would obviously need to be financed somehow. In the mean time if anyone is after anything of the blue and blue/grey variety just let me know what you're after and I'll tell you if I have it. As a guide I have as I said, 2x HST sets (new Hornby type with DCC and Lima coaches), around 6 08 shunters, probably 25 other diesels, most DCC fitted although I can always 'un-convert' them, including class 20, 25, 33, 37, 50, 56 etc. I also have a Bachmann mk1 rake of 6 coaches and a Bachmann rake of 5x mk2 with a mk1 restaurant coach, an Airfix mk2 rake including 4 sought after 2nd class open coaches and about 6x DMUs. Loads of Yeoman wagons, both 50t and 102t. Probably 10 Bachmann intermodals, parcels vans and others, I'm sure you now have a good idea of what I have. I haven't mentioned the road vehicles yet either, probably around 10 buses, 30 lorries, 70+ cars etc. Can you see now why I said my layout is looking a little crowded?

Anyway, apologies for the long post but this will be a BIG decision for me and I want to know exactly what I'm letting myself in for before taking the plunge. I value the advice I get on this forum far more than any other so come on guys, help me decide!

Do you have some idea of the proposed baseboard set up trainfish?

Do you mean a track plan sparky? If so then I only have the one in my mind at present. The baseboard setup can be seen by looking at  this rather crude effort I posted for my OO layout before. It at least gives you an idea of the shape of my loft and the baseboards which have already been installed. I hope it makes some sort of sense to you. If I was any good with MS Paint or any other graphics program I would re-do it but I'm no good with things like that! :hmm

To my mind Trainfish, there would be only one reason to move to "N" and that's to do with space.

If, as you seem to, you want a big layout with multiple tracks and depicting half the West Coast main line, unless you're Henryparrot with a shed as big as half a county, then it's impossible with "OO" so moving to "N" would seem the obvious choice.

I'd say there is less RTR stuff available in "N" than in "OO" - be it stock or road vehicles but the advantage of running scale length trains is clear.

To me, the disadvantage it also it's advantage - the size !!!  I know I could never model in "N"  (even if I could see it).  That's me - others do it extremely well.

The other disadvantage in changing at this stage is off-loading your "OO" stock.  Depending on what it is, you'd almost certainly lose a fair chunk of money to say nothing of the work already done that would be wasted.  Changing the layout but staying with "OO" would enable you to re-use that work.

I've also heard that "N" is very unforgiving when it comes to baseboards and trackwork.  Where "OO" will "wobble" over a bad point or chink in the baseboard, "N" will stop !!!

I'd say if you ignore the financial implications, your building skills are up to the job and you still want to model the BR network, then go for it !!!! :cheers

I think you have already more or less decided already really.

First thing to buy is a head magnifier you need it with N gauge

Secondly the bits can be fiddly can you handle tiny parts.

Track not an expert on N gauge track but the Peco offerings the finescale is much better but the pointwork is all electrofrog

You can use you seeps but bearing in mind electrofrog points if you use finescale you may need frog switching facillity unless your seeps are the switching ones.

There are many dcc ready N scale locos now but many of the existing diesals not dcc ready are fine to convert the only downside it must be a small decoder but over the last year a number of smaller cheaper decoders have been released.

Couplers there are alternatives to the standard ones John GJG will probably post about that.

There are a number of kits available but not as many as 00 due to the fact not so many N gauge modellers as 00

Nice long sweepping curves with the finescale track will look nice and your HST units will look right whereas with 00 very few layouts make them look good because of the curves.

Money wise yes you wont get what you paid for the bits but perhaps a good bit towards the new stock.

Brian

Certainly a huge space for n gauge. Could be a lifetime finishing that trainfish:thumbs

I'm fortunate to have both N and 00 and find that after running 00 for a while and then going to N the N feels impossibly small, after a while I get accustomed to it and it seems to grow.Similarly when I return to 00 it seems immense.

I find both very enjoyable 

Trainfish,
            The advice Brian(HP)gave you is very important.Optical magnifiers are vital when working in N gauge.Thats point 1.Point 2,N gauge IS very fiddly.If you want to change RTR couplings,for example,there are many options,but they are all very fiddly and WILL test your patience!
   If you think you're a patient sort of bloke,then I'd give it a go.Altough the 1st half dozen you try might turn out like a dog's dinner,(mine certainly did!!)you'll find that you develop your own short-cut way of making them,and the more you do,the better you'll become at it.
   My particular faves are DG couplings,and while they are very fiddly to make,they are still not the MOST fiddly that I've come across,by a long chalk.
  
The best thing about N gauge is,you'll effectively get FOUR TIMES as much railway layout into any given space.
   If you want to know anything else or ever need any advice,feel free to PM me,and I'll do my best to help.

Cheers,John.B.:thumbs

Thanks for the responses so far guys, they've been useful. To answer a few things and to ask maybe a couple more, here goes.

Space is the main issue and no, my loft isn't as big as half a county so it will certainly be easier to run scale length trains in N. Stock and road vehicles aren't a huge priority at the moment. I seem to remember not so long ago there was very little in the way of 1970's/80's cars in OO unless you were only using Morris Minors but even those really only just made it into the late 70's which is around when my layout will be based. There seems to be quite a lot of N in Europe so I'm wondering if maybe there are other manufacturers out there for these. I don't exactly want to build the M4 so I'll probably have a lot less vehicles than I do now. I have indeed thought about the size disadvantage too but my eyesight is pretty good. I already have a clamp on desk lamp thingy with a magnifying glass built in so that will obviously be very useful. I've just looked at head magnifiers on ebay and there seems to be a few different types, any ideas as to the best type? As for losing money on the OO stuff, I don't think it will be too bad. I can be quite a shrewd buyer/haggler when it comes to parting with my cash so most items have been bought at a very sensible cost. Much of it is second hand but in really good condition so should sell ok, it's just a case of deciding whether January/February is the best time to sell with people being a little skint after the Christmas festivities.
Track prices are bound to be a bit lower than I would like but that's to be expected especially as it's all been stuck down and will need a lot of cleaning up, unless of course someone knows a good way to lift track which has been stuck down with PVA???
Electrofrog v insulfrog doesn't worry me, there's always insulated fishplates and I am a qualified electrician so if I can't work that out I need shooting! Is there much difference between the finescale and 'standard' N gauge track then? That one certainly needs more advice and research I think. Also, how about the DCC conversion of older diesel locos, is this a relatively easy task or are there any tutorials out there which I would need? My main concern there would be whether there's enough room to fit a decoder AND the wiring inside the loco body. Remember, I've never taken 1 apart so I don't have a clue what I could be letting myself in for there.
Sparky, I'm not sure I still have a lifetime to finish the layout as I'm already 46, do you think I have enough time left? Seriously though, I've also thought about completing it in stages, maybe 1 side/wall at a time. At least then if I have other ideas while I'm building it then I should still have room to fit them in. I could just leave the track unstuck elsewhere so I can still play trains while a section is being built.
Ianbo, I will only have the 1 layout so I suppose once I've got used to it I don't have to worry about the size change, at least I hope that's the case.
Brian, you're probably correct in saying you think I have already decided to go for N, I reckon I've probably 75% decided which is why I'm looking for the other 25% to be convinced about. I like the idea of the long sweeping curves, full length trains, big station etc but I really do want to be 100% sure before I go for it. Petermac mentions the likelihood of trains stopping rather than 'wobbling', I'm guessing this is mainly over pointwork is it? If so would the electrofrogs solve this? Are shunters for example more susceptible to this issue?
I've just seen GJG's response before I've posted this, thanks for that mate. I've heard of DG couplings so that's a bit more research I need to do. I'm guessing at this point there's nothing like tension locks in N gauge?
Finally, I have to admit that I did this evening bid on a rake of 8 mk3 blue/grey coaches and won them for £49 including postage so at £6.12 each I think I did ok. I've bought these simply as I said in my first post so I can line them up on the existing boards to see what I can achieve with a switch to N. If I do decide not to go for it I don't believe I'll lose anything by selling them after seeing others go for a lot more.
Anyway, thanks again for the advice given so far, it really has been useful and please feel free to fire more at me if you feel the need to. You can also get a good idea of what space I have by looking at my layout thread which I believe is linked in my signature.

If you look under the section "On Members Workbenches",I did a thread,"Clay and Cattle Wagons".
In post number 26,there's a little video I did comparing MBM and DG couplings that might help you decide.

Cheers,John.B.:thumbs

Heres one i posed fitting  chip to an 04 shunter the 08 is quite similar

I will find a link for the standard poole type motor chassis which is standard for most graham farish diesals

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=4935&forum_id=10


heres a link that goes through a pretty standard fit to a poole type chassis

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/381-graham-farish-split-chassis-dcc-guide/

ive never posted any i have done as there are not any N scale dcc users on here


Brian

 

Some good links there guys, thanks again. I'm starting to understand a bit more about N gauge now and realsie it's not as easy as I thought it would be. I'd still say I'm 70% in favour of it though at this point.

I must admit I wasn,t too sure about N gauge but since i,ve got into it I find it very enjoyable in fact I spend ages just running trains than actually doing any thing on the layout the only word I can describe N gauge is exquisite (think that,s how you spell it ) the layout is 6'x2'8" so not really big but just a nice size to start off with .
I,ve decided to go with the new loco,s and rolling stock as they are more reliable now and the detail is fantastic and i,m running DCC with the Bachman Dynamis controller both loco,s I have are DCC ready and plug and play ( just unclip the body and plug in the decoder refit body and away you go :thumbs) I use Bachmann 6 pin plug in decoder they are only 2 function but do me and they are cheap .and thats me converted to N gauge :doublethumb

ps:I buy the new graham farish blue riband range rolling stock fantastic detail and finer scale wheels smooth running and not exspensive it,s only the loco,s that are pricey but you get what you pay for but worth it .

(Click to enlarge)

Brian, I have found the Bachmann 36-558 decoder for £12.50 at Hattons (couldn't find them on KMRC, where are you hiding them Chris?), are these the ones you use? Also, which track have you used in that picture?

Yep John they are the decoders I use and the track is peco streamline flexi track with some bits of peco settrack and insulfrog medium points , the flexi track can be a bit of bu**** to lay especially on the curves but I have used gaugemaster stone ballast foam I fitted the track into the underlay then laid the track the foam helps it keep it,s curve shape then pin it down

Trainfish, I found the best way to lift track stuck with p v a, is spray  it with water and washing up liquid
couple of mins later slide flat blade under and up it comes.
:doublethumb:cool:

Hi trainfish. Here's my tuppence worth. As you may know I am building a small N gauge layout here in Liberia. I do not find it that difficult modelling in N gauge and as someone else said you quickly get used to the scale. I find that you can make fast progress, with track laying, scenery etc as the spaces are much smaller, so it is easy to get something up and running quickly. I think the scale is great for running trains, but unless you spend a lot of time and effort changing couplings, it is quite hard to conduct decent shunting operations. Trying to do it manually normally sees the whole train coming off the rails. Hopefully, if they ever appear, the new Farish couplers will change all this. I find that the range of diesel locos by UK manufacturers are superb, but steam tend to be more challenging when it comes to smooth running. So, on balance, N offers all the advantages of space discussed above, but I think UK N gauge is best for watching the trains go by, rather than serious operations, unless you are prepared to put a lot of effort into an automatic coupling system.
Bob(K)

Thanks again all for the recent responses. I do have to say this must be the most friendly and useful forum in the world, probably the galaxy. I rarely offer help or can advise based on my experiences but you guys always come up trumps, thanks again and especially to Dave, 87 101 for introducing me to the forum in the first place.

Anyway, I now reckon I'm 85% certain I'll be making 'the change' as it were to N gauge. A little trip up to Cheltenham Model Centre either tomorrow or Wednesday will probably seal it for me. I would 'nip' down to see Chris but a 100 mile round trip is a little more appealing to me than a 430 mile round trip, sorry Chris. I'm sure he'll be able to do me a decent deal on some track though :thumbs

As for lifting track, I'll try the water and washing up liquid method, thanks Owen.

I'll find some Gaugemaster stone ballast foam somewhere too to see what it looks like in real life, it looks good in the pictures anyway Brian.

Novice, I'm not sure yet what to do about couplings. There's been some good advice here which will no doubt be very useful in the future but at present, especially with HSTs and DMUs, I'll be looking mainly at fixed formations so there may not be any immediate call for the newer type of couplings. Things will almost certainly change once I start looking at freight trains though.

Finally, are the Lima DMUs any good? I realise they won't be to the standard of the newer Farish and Dapol units but some of the OO scale units were pretty good. If they are any good what would you say would be a sensible price for a 3-car class 101 unit?

I'm probably at 88% certain now after typing all that.

Obviously I am biased because it is all I have ever done.  That said I have not done any British stuff for 30 years so I cant really comment on what specific stock is available for you, but what I can tell you is that there is a fantastic array of modelling stuff out there for this gauge, be it buildings, vehicles or general scenic items, you can even get working scale street lights.

As for working in N, I can tell you some of the issues I have had.  My eyesight has gone down hill over the last two years so a magnifier is high on my list to Santa, and frankly I wish I had always had one, having pretty chunky fingers ( 3/4 of them, most of which work) a variety of tweezers are a must.  When it comes to painting things, be it buildings, vehicles or people it is worth investing in some very fine brushes ( I have asked Della for a 3 zero and a 5 zero for Xmas and these are minute apparently) and you will benefit from the best lighting you can afford.

There are a variety of different couplers available, micro trains being one of the most popular as the are knuckle type couplers and just look better.

Space has also been mentioned, and it is true you can get so much more in a space with N but it can easily look cluttered very quickly so be aware of that, the other benefits is that smaller locos will handle 7" radii :cool:.

Also when you are doing any scenic work, during the planning stage, open spaces will suddenly appear huge so plan carefully, it is a bit of a balancing act getting it right.

Track has been mentioned, the code 55 finescale stuff looks great but be aware that older or cheaper models with the old 'pizza cutter' wheels will catch on the track shoes and struggle to cleanly cross any point, but again you have quite a wide choice of manufacturers to choose from.

The American and Japanese locos I have bought so far run like a dream and look fantastic and I believe the British stuff is improving all the time too, just a shame that Kato or Micro Ace dont do British locos ;-)

Feel free to give me a call for any other info

I'm not an "N" gauge modeller Trainfish but from what I've read and heard from friends who are, one of the main reasons "N" is making such big strides now, is the very high quality of the rolling stock.

As Lawrence said, whilst his stuff is not BR outline, the quality is astounding.  I have a friend in UK who models German outline in "N" and it's absolutely stunning (although veeeery expensive)

That quality isn't there in the old Lima type stuff you're talking about.  Whilst it would obviously be cheaper than buying "new", it would seem to me to be a bit like me buying "OO" Triang stuff.  Certainly cheap but where's the quality ?  You might be put off before you even get going.

Just a thought …………………………..:roll::roll::roll: