Post any questions arising from "First Steps with RR&Co"

[user=13]Matt[/user] wrote:

Hi John

how far are you down the road with RR&co? what occupancy detectors do you use? i am about to embark on a journey with RR&co, i am looking forward to it and i can see many hours of frustration ahead i have a track plan that follows my design, no track down yet, have a look at my layout thread. i have had locos moving around with the simulator and working to schedules. it takes a long time to work out. the simulator seems a bit topsy turby at times with locos jumping from one block to the next and back again. maybe you or i should start a thread in the DCC section dedicated to RR&co as i am sure i will have loads of questions in the future. i am glad to have you on the forum as i think i was the only one dabbling in RR&co, unless they were being quite.

 

matt

[user=13]Matt[/user] wrote:

very small world John

the computer control thread has not seen an update for some time, i put together notes whilst researching PC control and decided to post the information i had. i decided to go Lenz, s88 occupancy detector and LS150 for points. i wanted to be as future proof as i could and the demo version i have is gold, i didn't want to get silver and then be restricted to what i can do. February should see my first track down and i hope to be live from that point. my layout will be in 3 stages with the storage yard first. if i can get these working the rest should be a doddle haha.  please feel free to start a RR&co thread up in the DCC section. i will add my bit and ask a few questions. alan done a questions and answer  thread in the photo section, one thread was a tutorial thread for how tos and the other was for questions etc. you could do one RR&co and another RR&co questions. i would help with my limited knowledge, the first thread could be for tutorials, setting up a block, S88, points etc. i will soon have loads to add when i get started. the BIGGEST problem i found with RR&co is knowledge, i couldn't find much info on the net about the software. the learning curve is like climbing a brick wall. i got very scared when reading through the manual 200 odd pages just covering the basics. i think a couple of tutorials showing what it does on the layout would go a long way.

So this topic is not so much a case of being pushed……more like shoved

I havent started the tutorial or how to bit yet because I thought it might be worthwhile gauging the level of interest plus I wanted to answer Matts questions first

Matt I have been playing with RR&Co for almost 3 years but I only bought the software and started using it in earnest in January of this year. I have made quite a lot of progress with shuttle trains and run around routines. I will go into more detail in the main topic.

I use Lenz LS 150s for point control and Lenz LB 101s connected to LR 101s for occupancy control.

You need to determine what you want RR&Co to do for you before you go much further……there are so many different options and your choice will dictate the size and number of blocks, placement of signals and uncouplers etc

Making decisions about block sizes is fairly critical. The manual say that each block must be at least as long as as the longest train………..I am not convinced this is so. Every schedule must contain more than one block so if you want to move small trains or single locos around it is better to have more smaller blocks and find different ways of dealing with trains that are longer than the block 

Have you set your layout up in RR&Co or are you using a simple test layout for the simulator? I havent used the simulator so I had better work out how to do so begore I start the "How to" section

I am a little unclear how to do this…..if I start with absolute basics you will be bored…..if I move immediately into stop and brake markers in blocks anyone just started will be confused.

I think I will start by giving a little summary of RR&Co and then within the post design a dummy layout not unlike the branch station section of Granby (ie no Goods or Engine Shed Section) then we can practise creating shuttle trains and loco movements.

Any ideas or suggestion would be much appreciated  

Meantime I can answer your specific questions here…………hope this helps

Kind Regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have toyed with the idea of going down this route but am still hum-ing and ha-ing over the decision. As I am planning a new layout I suppose now would be a good time to make the decision, so I will watch your threads with interest, John. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

What, for you, were the main factors, for and against, in deciding to switch to computer control?

[user=433]Bod[/user] wrote:

I have toyed with the idea of going down this route but am still hum-ing and ha-ing over the decision. As I am planning a new layout I suppose now would be a good time to make the decision, so I will watch your threads with interest, John. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

What, for you, were the main factors, for and against, in deciding to switch to computer control?

I hope I am able to make the thread interesting and helpful for you 

Main factor for and against:

I model and operate alone.

 I have a reasonably large room for a layout but realistically can only run 2 trains at a time…..maybe three if I buy a shuttle module.

 My last layout had an amazingly complicated switchboard and to be honest I was often getting spectacular derailments because I didnt set the route correctly…….I could have bought/constructed a route setting matrix

For my hidden sidings on the last layout I constructed an expensive and often malfunctioning occupancy system. But even when it worked I had to shuffle each stored train from one section to the next.

The principal "against" was cost but having decided to go down the DCC route extending it to point control seemed obvious….I have semi hidden storage so DCC occupancy seemed logical so in a sense I was just edging down a path but in reality once I had played around with RR&Co I knew that was what I wanted and I planned the layout with that in mind from the first.

I dont know if you have heard of a guy who I think was called Steve Jones his nom de plume was "Electricnose". He was somewhat controversial and not everyone's cup of tea. He was a great fan of RR&Co and his website was a big influence on my decision. Sadly he has discontinued his site and I have been unable to access his articles…..he is a far more eloquent ambassador of RR&Co than I

Kind Regards

    

hi John

a great intro into this topic, such a large topic to cover. i will explain why i went PC control and explain the stage i am at.

as  most will know i embarked on a rather large project and at the very beginning i decided to go pc control.

WHY?

my layout will be a large layout over 3 levels. it is basically a large dogbone with 2 stations and a freight yard and a TMD. the fiddle yard will have 30 sections averaging 6ft a section. to control that lot will be a nightmare, i also have 2 boys both under 3, i want in the future to be able to operate a number of trains at the push of a button. the idea is my boys can come into the train room and hit a button and Thomas the tank engine sets of to do his jobs. the layout will be split into 3 operating areas

1 freight

2 passenger

3 TMD

i will set a timetable (schedule)for each one, so for example if i start the passenger schedule a number of things happen

train leaves fiddle yard

enters and stops at station 1

train leaves station 1 and sets of second loco starts

train stops at station 2

this Carry's on until the train rests in the fiddle yard. it will be possible to have 4 or 5 passenger trains in operation on the layout at any one time. now if you set the TMD schedule and the freight schedule they will all operate together, trains stopping and starting to signals and using routes that are clear. whilst all this is going on it is also possible to manually operate a loco, driving the train like in a simulated world.

John mentions bells and whistles

each loco is stored within RR&co, RR&co sets and adjusts each loco.  each loco is different so RR&co test the loco at different speeds so it can adjust braking acceleration. the reason for this is so all locos will stop at the right spot , at the right speed for braking.

RR&co can run a train at the correct speed, if you add weight ie wagons RR&co will take this into account so it will take longer to slow and longer to start.

you can set up a maintenance section, you can input an hours run, for example 100. when a loco or wagon reaches 100 hours running on the layout it will send that train to the maintenance section and tell you that train\wagon needs a service.

you can set it up to use the oldest train first, this will rotate through the locos using the one which has not been used for the longest amount of time.

you can set up a track cleaning train and tell it to use the oldest route first, so if you have 4 tracks in a station it will use 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 then 1.

that is just a few things the software can do.

 

so what stage am i at

i think before you start your RR&co layout you need a track plan that you are happy with and are happy this will work in the space you have. i will let John explain about the different items within RR&co and just put up a picture of my track plan within RR&co and my track plan with DRAIL for comparison.



 



 


 as you can see a little different.

 

now some questions for John

can you please explain about the speed testing process when using a loco for the first time?

i just can't get my head around thismaybe a bit easier with some track down.

signals, not ventured this far yet but eventually want automated signalling. can you explain your signalling set up?

 

my equipment

Lenz set 100

RR&co Gold

LS150 point control

LDT S88 occupancy detectors.


 

Wow Matt…………….that is some layout:roll:   You have certainly put in a lot of work and thought. Definitely got your moneys worth from the demo

RR&Co can certainly do all the functions you are planning.

SPEED PROFILING: I was going to start with a very basic tutorial but you are far beyond that so I think my first proper post in the main thread will attempt to answer your questions on Speed Profiling its way out of sequence and may confuse/put off people who are just starting but I guess if the thread develops admin can rearrange the posts in a more logical way. When you have read it you may want to modify your track plan because you need three continuos blocks

SCHEDULES: have you got schedules set up and tested on the Simulator? On your shot of the Switchboard I didnt see a tab for the Block Diagram or Dispatcher Window. I got the Simulator working last night for the first time…..its going to be a really useful tool    

SIGNALS:  The completed branch segment is not yet signalled and I was going to post after Xmas asking for comment/advice.I am ashamed to admit that the signals will be cosmetic semaphore :oops: My friends on RMWeb have given me such a hard time about this I think I will have to plan for some working signals when I start on the next phase. The problem is, if ,like me, you are planning to have most everything automated you dont really need them other than for realism. I guess your time period will allow light signals which are much easier to install.

You should probably work out a signalling plan for the scenic part of the layout because they will need wiring and decoders and possibly linking to point switches.

You can plot the symbols into the switchboard then you can have them change just like on the prototype for Block3 as an operation after the train exits Block 1. You can test this with the simulator. Thats a very simplistic approach and in reality will be much more complex……..my plan on the dummy layout was to introduce some signalling……you may want to start a new simple switchboard…..save it under a different name…….and experiment.  

Regards

 

John, this is the most splendid of threads which I am reading, and (:oops:) re-reading as it is presently above my skill level.  Yet I might investigate RR& Co more, as such an automation/program might fit within my simple end-to-end layout.  I'm thinking about a single or double car passenger service serving three rural stations, and going back and forth according to program.  I guess this software would do the job. 

[user=5]rector[/user] wrote:

John, this is the most splendid of threads which I am reading, and (:oops:) re-reading as it is presently above my skill level.  Yet I might investigate RR& Co more, as such an automation/program might fit within my simple end-to-end layout.  I'm thinking about a single or double car passenger service serving three rural stations, and going back and forth according to program.  I guess this software would do the job. 

Thanks Rector

I guess the fact you have to re read it means that my writing style is less than clear…..which is no surprise

You are actually the ideal guinea pig for the thread……if you download the demo version I can construct a simple (very simple) end to end layout and we can use that as both a tutorial and a test bed for you.

Is your layout set up or in the planning stage?

Kind Regards

As i am into technology and computers this sounds really interesting. I and i am sure along with many others may find the cost a problem. In saying that we all said the same about, VHS, Computers and indeed DCC but as time went on and more people went and bought the said items the price's went down.

So i would assume the same would be for this programme all be it a few years time. All thou i reckon fee bay may have iot in a few months at knock down price;s due to folks getting it and finding it is not for them. Thats why i think this thread is important for us to have, so we can decide if its right for what we want.

I like Matt,s idea on what he is doing with his and thats why i am most interested. Matt dont do this again, you cost me when i was thinking of DCC :thud.

Now for a stupid question, i am second to Petermac for these :thumbs, so please forgive me.

I take it the comp is wired to the baseboard as we do with any controller but do we have to have some kind of decoder on the layout to decipher what the comp sends out to the layout. I only ask this as what ever the comp is sending, be it e mails or pics etc all is done by numbers and when it gets into the next comp it is deciphered and come,s out on your screen in words or pics or whatever. There told you it was stupid :oops:.

Phill

I take it the comp is wired to the baseboard as we do with any controller but do we have to have some kind of decoder on the layout to decipher what the comp sends out to the layout.

As this is the discussion section I will butt in here if that's OK.  

The Computer is not wired to the baseboard, it has to be connected to a  DCC system.  It has to be a full spec. system that accepts computer control.  You need a device called an interface (the 'electronics box' that converts the numbers into something the DCC system understands) as you rightly guessed.  Some DCC systems have these built in others, like my Lenz system, require you to buy the interface seperately.   This interface is connected to the computer and to the DCC system and again the method will vary from system to system but usually all cables and basic software are provided with the interface.

I originally bought my interface to allow me to use decoder-pro, a free piece of software for the programming of decoders which is very useful in itself. 


There is a picture of the Lenz interface here.  http://www.dcctrain.com/shop/imageview.asp?file=LIUSB.jpg

"I dont know if you have heard of a guy who I think was called Steve Jones"
I think he designed Telford.

Although I have no intention of venturing into the murky waters of RR&Co, I will get much pleasure following this thread (if I can) so I'm grateful for that.

John a extremely good thread you are creating outlining the use of R&R and co im finding it an extremely good read .

I have no plans to use a fully automated layout but aspects of how this is done can be applied to many layouts in smaller ways.

I have 2 end to end branch lines which i intend to run automated but using s88 units with an ecos unit.

I did tinker with the r&R software a couple of years ago with the 7 minute demo.

i will be reading each instalment as you post them

cheers Brian

 

thanks John

sorry to put things out of sequence, the way you have explained this makes it all fall into place:thumbs i have space in the fiddle yard to set up a seperate length with the blocks in order to speed profile the trains. i am itching now to get my baseboards down to have a play. i will keep quite with the questions in order for you to do things in sequence. if i do have a burning question i can always send a PM.

phil i believe RR&co had problems with earlier software. they would release a code when you purchase the software the same as many other programmes do. this was soon passed on and i believe the software was cracked. you can download the majority of software from the internet using torrent software and other programmes. it would be easy for me to purchase the software and then sell on my code to 3 friends in order to re coop some money. RR&co soon clicked onto this and changed the way they do things. they now send you a USB stick which has to be inserted into the PC to get full access to the software. as far as i am aware this is coded and not been cracked.

when you have your adaptor set up and you go live to your command station you get 15 minutes, you can use this 15 minutes over and over again for 30 days. you can use the software for as long as you want, i have been playing with it for about 8 months. it does have a simulator so you can turn this on and see trains operate on the switchboard. this is a good way to iron out bugs. i hope i can plug in my PC when i have track down and it works rather than build up the software as i go.

WARNING

if you have read the post john has put up on speed profiling please do not be put off.

this is way down the line when tinkering with the software. everything does fall into place.

[user=13]Matt[/user] wrote:

thanks John

sorry to put things out of sequence, the way you have explained this makes it all fall into place:thumbs i have space in the fiddle yard to set up a seperate length with the blocks in order to speed profile the trains. i am itching now to get my baseboards down to have a play. i will keep quite with the questions in order for you to do things in sequence. if i do have a burning question i can always send a PM.

Glad you liked it Matt. I wasnt trying to give you a hard time and it helped me sort out in my own mind how to write the segments…………your second post "Warning" was a good call.

If you have any queries just post them here in the normal manner…..I will either try and answer them here or if they are meaty enough write another segment

Regards

 

[user=394]ddolfelin[/user] wrote:

"I dont know if you have heard of a guy who I think was called Steve Jones"
I think he designed Telford.

Although I have no intention of venturing into the murky waters of RR&Co, I will get much pleasure following this thread (if I can) so I'm grateful for that.

Nice one ddolfelin:thumbs I kind of guessed thats where all those Telford jokes came from. 

Hopefully the waters will become clearer

Cheers

[user=52]henryparrot[/user] wrote:

John a extremely good thread you are creating outlining the use of R&R and co im finding it an extremely good read .

I have no plans to use a fully automated layout but aspects of how this is done can be applied to many layouts in smaller ways.

I have 2 end to end branch lines which i intend to run automated but using s88 units with an ecos unit.

I did tinker with the r&R software a couple of years ago with the 7 minute demo.

i will be reading each instalment as you post them

cheers Brian

 

Thanks Brian…………glad you like it

You are quite correct you can use the software in many different ways ranging from Maual with or without interlocking through various combinations of manual and computor to auto. You may know that Widnes Vineyard (a well known Exhibition Layout I believe) uses it only for signalling

When I start on the basics I am going to try and build a switchboard for a layout like yours…..see my reply to Rector…..hopefully you will have another dabble with the demo

Cheers

"I kind of guessed thats where all those Telford jokes came from"

I cannot tell a lie, I must admit that it was I.
All those jokes followed after I told Steve that Telford was built following plans on which the architect had rested a wet coffee mug.

:doublethumbHilarious.......at one time it seemed every second address on RM Web had Telford in it. Is Steve Jones totally retired from the scene now with his web site gone? I really enjoyed his comments and the site was very informative

Don't know, John.
Haven't heard of or from him for some time.

Hope I'm not mucking up this thread with idle chatter.

No problem with me;-)