Troublesome Point

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I have a Peco Electrofrog point, half of a cross-over, which is causing me a headache.

It's operated by a Tortoise motor and, set straight on, absolutely no problems.

When I set it for the turn, it appears the frog is going dead.

I've changed the Tortoise in case it was the switch inside there, the point is so-called "DCC Friendly" in that the switch rails are bonded to the running rails and there are insulated joiners on the frog rails.

Without lifting the point to check the factory links at the frog, which will be a PITA, does anyone have any bright ideas  as to what might be the problem ?

Many thanks ………….

'Petermac
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[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:
I have a Peco Electrofrog point, half of a cross-over, which is causing me a headache.

It's operated by a Tortoise motor and, set straight on, absolutely no problems.

When I set it for the turn, it appears the frog is going dead.

I've changed the Tortoise in case it was the switch inside there, the point is so-called "DCC Friendly" in that the switch rails are bonded to the running rails and there are insulated joiners on the frog rails.

Without lifting the point to check the factory links at the frog, which will be a PITA, does anyone have any bright ideas  as to what might be the problem ?

Many thanks ………….
If the frog is live in the straight ahead position, that means that the single wire from the frog is working.
Switch the point to the curved position & check the wire supplying power to the frog switch.
If you want to check the single wire to the frog, connect it to one end of a continuity tester & connect the other end of the tester to the frog on the upper side of the point.

"The only stupid question is the one you don't ask"
Regards.
Tony.
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Multimeter first, check to see it is actually dead.

Nigel

©Nigel C. Phillips
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I have used a multimeter and, as I said, it's live straight on but dead when set to diverge.

Surely, if the point works when straight on, it can't be the frog switch feed at fault Tony - there's only 1 wire from the Tortoise to the point frog switch - that's why I changed the Tortoise thinking the internal switch wasn't working.  It's also a bit of a pig to access that area under the baseboard.

I think I'm going to have to lift the point and look at those factory fitted link wires (I thought there were 2 soldered connections somewhere under the frog (from the single wire) but I could be wrong …………)

I just didn't want to have to lift it because it also means lifting a couple of lengths of track so I can release the insulated joiners ……………then redo the operating wire on the Tortoise because it's nigh on impossible to get the cut rod into the hole in the tie bar …………………………  :twisted: :twisted:

 I think I might go back to photography instead of railway modelling……………

'Petermac
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[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:
I have used a multimeter and, as I said, it's live straight on but dead when set to diverge.

Surely, if the point works when straight on, it can't be the frog switch feed at fault Tony - there's only 1 wire from the Tortoise to the point frog switch - that's why I changed the Tortoise thinking the internal switch wasn't working.  It's also a bit of a pig to access that area under the baseboard.

I think I'm going to have to lift the point and look at those factory fitted link wires (I thought there were 2 soldered connections somewhere under the frog (from the single wire) but I could be wrong …………)

I just didn't want to have to lift it because it also means lifting a couple of lengths of track so I can release the insulated joiners ……………then redo the operating wire on the Tortoise because it's nigh on impossible to get the cut rod into the hole in the tie bar …………………………  :twisted: :twisted:

I think I might go back to photography instead of railway modelling……………
The single wire is fine because it works when in the straight ahead position.
Did you check to see there was power in the wire supplying the power to the switch when the point was in the curved position ?
If the switch is getting no power when in the curved position then the wire supplying the power may be faulty

"The only stupid question is the one you don't ask"
Regards.
Tony.
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The power for that frog wire comes from a Tortoise point motor Tony.  I initially thought it might be the internal switch on that not switching properly so I changed the motor for another.  I haven't actually checked either motor but it's highly unlikely that I have 2 with the same fault.

I will however, check it tomorrow.

'Petermac
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"Appears"…(seems to, not definitive). Somewhere between the switch and the tortoise then.. Or a faulty switch or bad terminal connection.

Nigel

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Hi Peter
Lets assume the frog requires + ve Red for normal/straight and -ve Black for curved

Are you satisfied that the black wire to the tortoise is (a) getting power from the -ve black DCC bus?

If satisfied power is connected to the black tortoise feed……are you sure that the actual soldered connection to the tortoise is working.

When checking the Frog wire In the curved position with the multimeter I assume you have checked for both +ve and -ve current?

If the frog is supplying + red power in the normal position and in the curved position is dead….Neither  + red nor - black then you know that the frog wire connections are good AND that the tortoise switch mechanism is working…..it is turning the red power on and off.

I have been running about 40 tortoi for almost 10 years now. Faults occur from time to time but it is invariably down to me:oops:. Dont believe I have had one fail……which is more than can be said for Peco motors and switches

If all else fails and you are certain this particular tortoise is incapable of switching polarity…….it is still a working point motor.

Rather than scrap it I would leave it in location and also connect up one of the GM500D switches we talked about to switch polarity……I have use a few now (replacing peco switches) they are cheap 5 gbp , simple to connect and effective.

Best wishes

John

John
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Sol
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Peter, don't forget the Tortoise has 2 switches that could be used.
http://wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm     down the page to
 SUGGESTION #2-12b:  Peco "Electrofrog" Turnout Is DCC Friendly In Just a Few Snips.   has  a circuit that maybe of help

Ron
NCE DCC ; 00 scale UK outline.
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Is the wire from the rail to the switch at fault?  The wire can look intact but be high resistance which effectively cuts the  voltage going through?
I'm not familiar with the tortoise machine switches but is it connected to the correct terminal underneath… it is fairly easy to lose your orientation when underneath the layout!

Just a thought!

Cheers

Trevor

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Many thanks for all your suggestions and each will be tried today.  John, I very much doubt it's the motor - this would make it 2 with the same fault because I swapped motors thinking the switch might be at fault.  I'm almost certain the problem lies with the electrician and not with the machinery ……….but where ?  I''ve fitted plenty of these motors and only this one has thrown up a fault - and then only because I ran a short wheelbase loco without a stay-alive through it !  My other locos manage to negotiate it with little or no problem.

'Petermac
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Hi Peter,

How old are the Tortoise motors?

The internal switches in them are notoriously "iffy" and the switches in some early motors often failed. In this 10-year-old topic, Andrew Jukes (owner of Exactoscale) went so far as getting his own design made of replacement internal circuit boards:

 Tortoise Auxiliary Switches - Scalefour Forum

I believe the current Tortoise motors have an improved design, so it might be worth getting a new one.

Alternatively, there are 2 switches in each motor. If you are not using the other switch, try swapping the connections to that one.

Even so, I would never rely on the internal switches in Tortoise motors for anything important. It's quite easy to slave a relay and diode across them to provide reliable polarity switching. Suitable relays can be had for around £1 on ebay.

cheers,

Martin.
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The motors aren't very old Martin and, more importantly, they haven't had much use.

I had read that these switches - a wiper type - can cause problems but, having originally changed the motor thinking that might be the problem, I think it highly unlikely that I have the same problem with the replacement.

I can't use the second switch - that's being used for my LED route indicators.

Those words "slave" and "relay" send shivers down my spine before I even look up to see what they are ……………you've moved over to the dark side of railway modelling when you bring such monsters into the equation !!!

In spite of having all those mice and men at my disposal, plans for today have gone slightly astray and I haven't yet had time to do any exploration based on the various suggestions offered so far but hopefully, this afternoon might offer another oportunity to do so …………………….

Don't go away …………………………. :roll:

'Petermac
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[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:
I can't use the second switch - that's being used for my LED route indicators.
Hi Peter,

Try swapping the switches so that the LED indicators use the other one. If the indicators work, you will know there is nothing wrong with the switch.

Martin.
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Now that IS a good idea Martin - thanks.  :cheers

'Petermac
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Planning went awry yet again this afternoon - my minder wanted me to go to the local town to get some "urgent" rubbish !!

However, I did spend a good half hour checking all the wiring and all was as it should be - nothing wrong with any of the connections or with the Tortoise internal switching.

The only remaining option was to lift the point and see if there was a problem there.

I ran out of time (we're eating out with friends tonight) but had a good look and think I've found the trouble - only think as I haven't had time to look with better light and a magnifying glass - we oldies need that kind of assistance for anything smaller than a brick …………………

I'll check properly tomorrow but I think the frog wire is broken where it joins one of the switch rails.  They are either spot welded or resistance soldered during manufacture and I'm almost certain the final joint has a minute break in it thus power isn't getting to that part of the switch rail - the bit between the frog and the rail break where one removes those little link wires when bonding the running rail to the switch rail.

I think - and I also hope otherwise I'm completely stumped !!

'Petermac
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You should be able to check that with a multimeter. Current upstream/of the fracture…..zero current downstream

Have a nice evening…..good luck tomorrow

John

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Trust you managed some falling down liquid too!
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Well that turned into a marathon - in between other (according to my minder), "more important jobs", I finally managed to sort it all out.

Rather stupidly, whilst I had everything dismantled and the board in question tipped on edge so I could work on the underside with ease, I decided to add a few "extra" droppers and generally "tweak" wire related things under there.

In doing so, I produced 2 shorts and blew 2 LED route indicators on the panel ……………………..(yes, I did forget to switch off before "messing about"  :oops:)

After lots of poking about with a multi-meter, flipping the board back and forth when, according to the multi-meter, everything was fine only to find the test loco either wouldn't cross one half or other of the crossover or that each of the points forming the crossover worked in opposite directions and trying to remember how in heavens name, I'd wired the route indicator LEDs, I finally ran out of Anglo Saxon phrases, mental agility (although that was far more limited than my understanding of Anglo-Saxon) just in time to get everything up and running as it should have been.

The initial problem also took some finding.  In many installations, and when they were cheap, I used edge connectors on the Tortoises without any problem - these edge connectors don't have a location reference but by simply "feeling" for a balanced fitting on the body of the motor, everything has always been fine.

When testing for continuity with the multi-meter, I either used the visible pins on the connector or unplugged it and used the now exposed sliding contacts.  I could NOT find a fault !!  Every single connection was good.  Similarly, there was no fault on the motor either. 

Eventually, it dawned on me that there remained one connection I hadn't tested - the one between the edge connector and the Tortoise itself.  I couldn't think of a way to actually test this - either virtually impossible to access the tag strips on the motor with the edge connector in place or simply not having enough patience to set every circuit, switch on, test, set another circuit etc. etc. so I ditched that particular loom and hard wired another motor - soldered the wires directly to the motor tags and Bingo !!! 

Not sure if the edge connector is faulty or the tags on the motor are slightly awry - these edge connectors have virtually no tollerence but this is the first one I've had a problem with.  Having said that, I've never actually needed to use all 8 contacts before - only now because of the route indicators.  They are now a silly price but I do have several in stock and the other area I'll use them doesn't have route indicators so I'll only be using 5 of the contacts.  In the event of a motor problem, they do allow for a quick change.

'Petermac
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Barchester is in the usergroup ‘Super-moderators’
Glad you got it sorted Peter. Time for a strong drink . . . Or three  :cheers :cheers :cheers
Glad you are in my school of testing, it makes me feel less alone!    " It doesn't work  :hmm. Poke it a bit. . Still doesn't work. . . Poke it a bit harder or give it a wiggle.  :hmm.  STILL doesn't work. . Begger off and leave it alone. . See if it works later . . Still not working ? Ok I need to use a tool . . Where did I put it ?   Give up till tomorrow. . Tomorrow it might  miraculously work and when no longer needed the tool will immediately appear  :Happy


Cheers

Matt

Wasnie me, a big boy did it and ran away

"Why did you volunteer ? I didn't Sir, the other three stepped backwards"
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