How to overcome dirty track

Nigel - I think you're missing the point here …………

There are indeed, many factors that can effect the smooth running of a locomotive, some are track related, some are mechanical related and some are electric related.

Track in days of yore was nothing like as high quality as today's offerings - just have a look at a Peco double slip from 10 years ago compared with one made last year.  The difference is stunning.  The old ones worked but Peco improved them.

Go back those 10 years and compare the running qualities of any locomotive with one manufactured today.  The old ones worked but the manufacturers improved them.

The same goes for electrics - controllers and motors are far superior today, pick-ups are both better and more numerous and, presumably, the metals used a better conductors.

A stay-alive simply removes one of the potential weak links on a layout so why not use it.  As Paul said, belt and braces.

When I bought my "shed " and layout, I questioned his use of dead frog points.  The reply ?  He couldn't "get on" with live frog points so fitted stay-alive's in all his locos instead …………………..my point exactly……..

I'm not convinced that I lay electro frog points any better than I do dead frogs and I do pay particular attention to keeping the switch/running rail contact area clean but, on Maxmill 1, running improved dramatically when I changed to live frogs …………………..

This is a debate which could run and run.

My post makes no suggestion that Stay Alives should be used a) at all, or b) as a substitute for good tracklaying and vehicle maintenance. I really couldn't give fig what people chose to do with their own property and money.

But I am prepared to explain more fully something raised as a suggestion for other's consideration, especially when I have some relevant experience. That is not an endorsement of the practice.

There's no disagreement between us that track, electrics and pick-ups should be a good as possible. That's always been true, you're not telling us anything new.

Where you and I differ is what type of advice to give.

Saying (in effect) 'you should have done it this way' or 'the only correct way is….' is not particularly constructive for the recipient whose models currently do not run well.

'Here is something which could help for now' on the other hand empowers the individual with enough reliable information to make a satisfactory (for them) decision on how to proceed, without being judgemental.
Stay Alives are an intrinsic part of modelling too. Treat them as such.

And finally, if someone brought a model to my layout and it didn't run properly, then naturally it would be their model at fault, wouldn't it? LOL

Best regards,

Paul

I see two separate issues here regarding the merits of Stay Alives.

With Sound installed they are highly desirable as any minor interrupt will reset the sound program. On 0-6-0 locos and smaller, even with near perfect pickups / clean and level track occasional resets are hard to avoid.

For relative beginners like me, who on starting out chose not to install point motors / power switching are left with Insulfrogs and those dead areas, again problematic for the smaller x-6-x configurations.
 I've even on-sold one otherwise lovely Bachmann 45xx Class because its chassis was clearly "off centre" in some way and would loose contact in a double curved point despite my every effort. It's replacement has been fine.

For insulfrog users, careful additions of Stay Alives can turn the worst of poor performing small wheelbase locos into decent runners. For that I'm personally very grateful since tearing up my entire layout was not an option.

Tantalum tantrums
On this related issue, ZIMO's SACC 16 has been specifically designed for them to sit on board and I've trusted them to be of matching quality to the rest of their gear. If anyone is worried, they can be located away from the chip as the little PC board will go just about anywhere, dress it in full battle armour if you're really worried!

They are wired in parallel.

Hi Colin,

While not wishing in any way to put off newcomers to the hobby, there are clearly a lot of issues here.

First off, and to John , my apologies for inadvertently using way too much of this topic.

Secondly, everything I have read from all commentary still points to addressing the fundamental issues of the track and or poor performing locomotives before resorting to stay alives. 

Thirdly, I use stay alives, not for addressing poor sections of trackwork, but to deal with those micro -pauses in continuity that can happen. 

Dead frogs. I had a look at the Peco diagram. They are around 1.5 cm long. An 0-6-0 should have no issues getting across that as at least one wheel will be conducting current at all times (and to all other wheels). Old dead frogs were I think a lot longer. Peco electrofrogs have their own issues due to using power routing. There are plenty of resources dealing with how to make them work with DCC.

An important part of this hobby is getting the track work correct. Especially as UK modeling usually involves small locomotives. This it not about "do it my way" (where you would be building your own!),  but making sure it works from the get go and not using bandaids to try and correct it. 

Nigel

Likewise, my apologies to John for the diversion.

 I'd like to capture the learning from my various experiences but will post separately, under "The Trials and Tribulations of the Insulfrog Modeller" perhaps. Believe me, the hours spent trying to get my first 45xx to work certainly warrant that title!

I agree with Nigel's point
"Secondly, everything I have read from all commentary still points to  addressing the fundamental issues of the track and or poor performing  locomotives before resorting to stay alives."

Sometimes poor performing locos have issues that are not readily fixed, especially for the less gifted in that department and it is here that Stay Alives have been a saviour for me.







 

This has all been very interesting.  I note the new Zen Black decoders don't need a stay alive…..
I can be very frustrating  when a patch of dirt or whatever causes poor running…. this does seem to answer that problem.  Like others, if I had a persistent problem, I'd being resolving it, not covering  it up.

Michael

A tiny bit late for this post, ahem. To add to Paul's helpful post. I adjust CV 153 to 20 which gives me 2 seconds before braking (CV4 setting) starts. I like to use F2 for braking, so CV4 is set high, usually more than 200. I set CV111 to 1 which stops it dead after the 2 second setting in CV 153.