A GWR journey through the 1920s and 30s

Bill,

Brilliant!

 My suggestion is to download a copy of "ANYRAIL", there's a free (genuinely free) evaluation version with limitation of 50 track components. It has PECO track libraries, set and flexi- so you just select items and drop them in place, I liked it so much I bought the full unlimited version and found it made design and track laying a doddle. One of the best software investments I ever made.

Beauty is you can put up your ideas here, get input and rejig the plans as required with no need to search for fresh papyrus to redraw. Barry M has his layout designed in this software. He sent me the file and his whole wonderous enterprise popped up on my monitor, otherwise hard to see the details at Photo Gallery resolution on here.

Colin

Hi Bill,

In addition to John's points:

The branchline is on the upper level, presumably over the storage yard. The embankment up is around 2 m long. Is that enough to give you working room height-wise in the yard, or is the terminus just a shelf?On

If the terminus is a decent width 50-60 cm) how about making a longish S curve after the halt to give visual interest and to bring towards the front.

The liftout is going to be cumbersome as it comprises the track and tunnel section.

Nigel

  Hi John,

That was not a long reply, I’m looking forward to the long one, but I will try not ask too many questions at once though, so apologies from me in advance!

Many thanks for your kind words and most useful suggestions and while I’m comfortable with many aspects of IT, I still like to sometimes revert to my comfort zone and use my drawing board and drawing instruments, although I went freestyle when I discovered that old sheaf of parchment. The medieval effect was further enhanced by using my laptop screen to back-light the graph paper, so not so much a luddite attitude, rather than a nostalgic one!

I’ll keep your same order to comment, answer and pose further questions, so here goes.

Power: thanks for confirming my suspicion and fortunately, NCE make it very easy to upgrade their 2 amp to a 5 amp system. I’m also considering a regulated power supply unit to safeguard against mains surges, such as a DCC Concepts Colbalt Alpha unit.
Short protection: Absolutely yes and the districts seem to fall into 3 easy ones of main line scenic, storage sidings and branch, with the  goods and engine shed yards forming another one or two districts. How would the power for point control and signalling be handled?
Point control: This is where you’ll begin to discover that electrical work is not one of my areas of competence, but I’ll become a good student and learn, as I simply have to.  Yes, I want this to be as straightforward as possible, notwithstanding the inherent complexity of this aspect of the layout.
I’d like slow motion motors and automatic polarity switching (I dislike the noise and thump of point motors) and understand this could be via frog juicers or either Colbalt or Tortoise motors (not sure if one or both do this). The wiring and panel requirements are at present daunting.
Signals: Now is the time to plan signalling. I have David J Smith’s ‘GWR Signalling Practice’, a mighty 400 page tome which I’ve not yet been brave enough to delve into. Now seems a good time to start and discover what signals I need for the main lines and single line branch and gain a sufficient understanding to decide how much complication I want to get into.
Branch: Oh yes, it’s being fully modelled and I’ve almost finished the engine shed. It was just easier to show its route above the storage sidings at the moment, until I find the time to fully design it and to maintain access to the rearmost storage sidings. As Nigel says, it needs sufficient height to do so.
Storage: I’m not sure how much storage I need and will have to schedule train formations and do some measuring and calculation. I suppose this is one of those instances were too much is a bonus, but getting sufficient storage may in fact be a challenge. I’m sure occupancy detection would be a good idea, although I’ve not yet decided how visible I want the sidings to be yet. I could add scenics to the area and make it a big yard. What observations have you made over the years regarding capacity?
 
I know that the layout may never be truly finished, but I’m looking forward to finally starting the build and all of the challenges and the fun and contentment ahead.

Bill

[user=2006]Barry Miltenburg[/user] wrote:

Bill

Looks good

Have you considered moving the sidings to the nearside of the baseboard - perhaps pushing the loco yard to the back?  I have found that shunting in the back corner (unless you use automatic uncoupling) can be a pain.

Barry

Thanks Barry and yes, I had and still am considering moving the goods yard to the front left of the board and pushing the loco facilities to the far right. I like the action to be close and personal and shunting and loco movements are fun.

I like DG auto couplings, as they have proved reliable for exhibition use and look very much better than RTR TLs.

My continued best wishes for your own railway and that very fine shed.

Bill

[user=2170]Colin W[/user] wrote:

Bill,

Brilliant!

 My suggestion is to download a copy of "ANYRAIL", there's a free (genuinely free) evaluation version with limitation of 50 track components. It has PECO track libraries, set and flexi- so you just select items and drop them in place, I liked it so much I bought the full unlimited version and found it made design and track laying a doddle. One of the best software investments I ever made.

Beauty is you can put up your ideas here, get input and rejig the plans as required with no need to search for fresh papyrus to redraw. Barry M has his layout designed in this software. He sent me the file and his whole wonderous enterprise popped up on my monitor, otherwise hard to see the details at Photo Gallery resolution on here.

Colin

Thanks Colin, I'm pleased to have kicked off the trackplan and am looking forward to understanding much more of what I am getting into, particularly with all the tricky bits!

I'll try AnyRail again and see if I can make better sense of it, now I've downloaded the latest trial version, as well as the user manual!

Best,

Bill

[user=1632]BCDR[/user] wrote:

Hi Bill,

In addition to John's points:

The branchline is on the upper level, presumably over the storage yard. The embankment up is around 2 m long. Is that enough to give you working room height-wise in the yard, or is the terminus just a shelf?On

If the terminus is a decent width 50-60 cm) how about making a longish S curve after the halt to give visual interest and to bring towards the front.

The liftout is going to be cumbersome as it comprises the track and tunnel section.

Nigel

Hi Nigel, a branch line has always been my intention since getting back to the hobby and it will be fully represented.

The  narrow shelf concept will be followed up around the corners onto the new partition wall above the storage sidings, where there will be a small, yet well formed branch terminus on a wider board, with an s curve approach as you suggest. There may be merit in sliding the through station along to the left, so the branch can start earlier, have a longer scenic run (good) and give greater handling room above the storage sidings (better), while the goods and engine shed yards can then be moved as I mentioned to Barry in post 144.

The lift off section may well be just that, comprising an open cell structure with ground formation above and lightweight, resting on continuous supports along the adjacent wall and baseboards with dowel location. That gets it right out of the way for safe in and egress.

My list of challenges is currently expanding at a greater rate than the solutions, ha, love it!

Best,

Bill

Hi Bill,

That really does sound interesting. And potentially complicated. Depending on the width of your shelf the working height below to access the yard could have a significant impact on the slope up to the branch line halte and then on to the terminus. Expanding on my brief and hurried previous comments:

From your sketch the slope looks to be 2 meters long. With a narrow shelf of say 30 cm an access height of 15 cm would be enough. That however means a 7.5% gradient (1:13). Doable for a Bo-Bo or Co-Co diesel, not so sure a 2.6.0 or a 0-4-2 is going to make it.

If the shelf covers half the yard (60 cm) to accommodate an S-bend you will need to probably double that height to access the yard tracks comfortably. That would mean at least a 10% gradient.

Access to the top LH corner is problematic being at least 1.5 meters.

So some suggestions:

Move the mainline station to the left, put the engine shed, turntable, etc. on an island going into the center (which facilitates getting into the top LH corner), cassette storage underneath the island, access via the turntable, put a 2 (or 4) turn helix in the upper RH corner disguised as a hill with a tunnel, run the mainline on the level around the hill, the branch line on the helix. A 90 cm diameter single track helix will give approximately 280 cm per turn, 2 turns will give you 560 cm/5.6 meters. That should get you down to around a 1%-3% gradient up to the shelf at the bottom, and you could even move the halt to somewhere near the middle of the RHS.

You might want to build some slopes of varying gradients to see what the pulling power of the motive stock is. Nothing worse than building a slope and then finding the engine is not up to the job. Been there, done that.

Alternately, make the main layout section with the station higher, put the storage yard underneath, with the main line and branch line going around to their current locations. Access the yard via a 2 track helix going both up and down.

Lots of possibilities that would keep the essential parts of your design. I know a helix is looked at askance by many, but when you start to consider a higher level "unit" and where do the storage yards go they become extremely useful. A helix is also a great way of "increasing" the layout size if you want to run a couple of trains at the same time and/or want a decent interval between the train(s) arriving.

One thing about multilevel layouts is ensuring the distance between the lower and upper level is enough to make them visually separate. Consensus here seems to be at least 9"-12" (23-30 cm), preferably more. One complaint I have heard  from owners of multilevel layouts (I was the local NMRA Division photographer and reporter for several layout open houses last year) is that they wish they had a) had the levels higher (for visual separation), and b) had the levels lower (for access to the yards). One layout had a helix accessing the lower yards, the level main layout, and the upper branch layouts (one left, one right). Plus two places where storage yards were accessed via slopes going down.

Nigel

Hi Bill

Glad you didnt mind my teasing

 Short protection:
 How would the power for point control and signalling be handled?

Dedicated accessory Bus. Relieves load on DCC bus and allows you to rest points when short has shut down DCC circuit…….most shorts are caused by locos accidentally entering incorrectly set turnout

 Point control:
 I’d like slow motion motors and automatic polarity switching (I dislike  the noise and thump of point motors) and understand this could be via  frog juicers or either Colbalt or Tortoise motors (not sure if one or  both do this). The wiring and panel requirements are at present  daunting.

I am a big fan of Tortoises. I have had at least 40 for a decade…..not one has failed…..rock solid and totally reliable

Tortoise have contacts for two additional auxilary switches. You can use one for automatically switching polarity and the other for LEDs or signals

 Signals:
Now is the time to plan signalling. I have David J  Smith’s ‘GWR Signalling Practice’, a mighty 400 page tome which I’ve not  yet been brave enough to delve into. Now seems a good time to start and  discover what signals I need for the main lines and single line branch  and gain a sufficient understanding to decide how much complication I  want to get into

I think it would be too expensive and impractical to operate "correct" signals for the entire layout. It might be worth using the branch as a test bed. Working signals linked to turnouts would be a great visual indication the correct point was set when you start a train 10' away on the other side of the room 

Storage:
 I’m not sure how much storage I need and will have to  schedule train formations and do some measuring and calculation. I  suppose this is one of those instances were too much is a bonus, but  getting sufficient storage may in fact be a challenge. I’m sure  occupancy detection would be a good idea, although I’ve not yet decided  how visible I want the sidings to be yet. I could add scenics to the  area and make it a big yard. What observations have you made over the  years regarding capacity?


Never enough! I am constantly trying to squeeze more space out of it.
It might be useful to guess your likely average operating time…….lets say two hours ….assuming a fast clock set at 4 ( many people use 6) that would equate with 8 hours in real time …..list the trains (and length) that you would expect to see in that time…then work out where all those trains will be stored…..not all ,of course, will be need to be in the yard……but it will help working out the ideal requirement for the yard

I like the idea of cassettes (wish I had them) but I dont think you would want to be loading while operating)

My watch words for storage yards are ….Space……Visibity……..Accessibilty.

Again too long a post…….perhaps I can expand on this tomorrow?

Cheers

John

That's a great looking plan Bill - loads of operating and scenic potential there.  :thumbs
I'm delighted to hear electrics are a bit of a dark art to you too - I'll therefore be following your training sessions earnestly whilst pretending I knew it all along …………………..!

I'm not quite there myself yet but when I'm ready to install my "high level" branch line, I'll try to follow the advice I've been given on here - make your gradient much less than your plan suggests (to allow physical access to the lower "hidden" tracks where Murphy insists all derailments are scheduled to take place from the moment they become "hidden")  and, to facilitate that access, make the clearance between the two levels much greater than you first thought was adequate …………………….. !

You've seen my setup and I can have at least 3 or 4 locos running at the same time using my Lenz LS150 transformer which I think, churns out 5 amps so I'd also recommend the 5 amp upgrade. 

I use a combination of DC and DCC for point control together with assorted motors - Tortoise, surface mounted and SEEP solenoid types.  The surface mounted are used only where it's virtually impossible to fit either a tortoise or SEEP.  The Tortoises are superb and do have frog polarity changing facilities built in.  I've never used Cobalts although I understand they're very similar to the Tortoise.

Don't forget to let me know when you start your electronic journey - I'd hate to miss anything !!!  

Like everyone else, Bill, the plan looks very exciting and I am envious of the space you have available - lucky boy!  Although you have quite a lot of features and plenty going on, you have also created a lot of space and areas for some super scenic work and having seen the quality of your modelling  I am sure it is going to be a treat for us to watch its progress.  And I will be particularly interested in seeing the raised branchline.
Ver exciting!

Michael 

Hi Bill,

"My watch words for storage yards are ….Space……Visibility……..Accessibility". Thank you John.

Which brings up another comment (you did ask…). That's a 4 road mainline station (1 up and 1 down mainline, one branch line, and one suburban line service terminating at the station?) with its own engine shed (3 roads - 6 engine roster or 3? One for the branch, one for the suburban, one station pilot?) and goods yard. Plus it's a branchline terminus. Seems to be a busy place. But only 2 goods sidings (plus the cattle dock). Any chance that part of the storage yard could become the shunting yard along the top behind the station? Dual function - immediate operations and storage between operations.

The trackwork just before the station on the LHS looks a bit suspect, with one mainline becoming the branchline, and nowhere for the suburban service to cross over between the up and down lines. I'm sure that will be attended to with the real plan. BTW, it's worth investing a bit of time in getting to grips with Templot, at least for the mainline station.

Real timetable or make your own? A busy mainline station could have 3 up and 3 down per hour, more on a summer weekend with GWR holiday specials. Plus perhaps 4-5 branchline arrivals and departures, plus the morning and afternoon freight trains to and from the branchline.Taking John's fast clock of an 8 hour operation timetable that's a minimum of 50 movements. In 2 hours. Waaaaay too many.

To put it into a bit of perspective, the operating timetable for the Watlington branchline Monday through Saturday in the interwar years called for 2 goods (morning, evening) each way, and 5 passenger trains each way, in a 12 hour period. Using a 4x compression, that's 14 train movements over a 3 hour operating session. That's a train every 13 minutes. Luckily the passenger trains only require 2 or 3 different coach arrangements (extras for the first and last trains, less for the rest, plus a diesel railcar could often be scheduled for a return run from the mainline station during the day (Princes Risborough was the terminus for 3 different railcar services during the week) and 1 steam engine, but the same engine was also used for the goods trains, which also only requires 2 different wagon arrangements (empties and fulls from the mainline station yard, fulls and empties back). Add in running around time for regular coach running and transferring the engine from passenger to goods (and vice versa) leaves no time for a cuppa unless you have a team running it.

Branchlines normally kept the engine at the end of the line ready for  the first train out in the morning (not always though). Which meant that every now and then a different locomotive would appear for a week or so while the regular was away having its boiler cleaned along with an intermediate service. Often the first train was the goods, but milk was usually on the  first passenger train as it was immediately attached to a fast train at the mainline.The first passenger and last passenger trains were normally timed for the arrival of mainline trains or slip coaches.

Looking at some real working timetables also gives the time allowed at the station for shunting (usually 15-20 minutes), as well as the time allowed between stations and haltes.

I would hesitate to run to a real timetable (except from a Sunday) unless you enlist the help of Railroad & Co or some human assistants, or used a 2x-3x compression covering say the first 4-6 hours in the morning. Switch to the next 4-6 hours for the next operating session. Selective use of real timetables to suit your interests is also helpful.

I suspect that's way too much commentary. Good luck with the build and the operations. I'll be following with great interest. Nice to see you are going modular.

Nigel

 

  Hi Nigel,  

Yes I did ask and I thank you for your full attention and your last two posts. Your excellent thought provoking post 151, scarily captures the true operating potential of the main line station. I was originally going to go with just the up and down lines and the branch, but looking at other layouts, saw the possibilities to run main line and suburban services alongside one another, as well as branch traffic. I’ll not be able to handle truly hectic schedules of course, but it will be good to occasionally see these services' stock operate alongside one another.

The goods yard is only indicative and will need half a dozen lines to do it justice, as well as stables and as mentioned in post 144, could be moved to the front of the board with the engine shed probably sliding round to spill onto the left hand board.

Hmm, that mainline trackwork to the left of the station is not only suspect, it simply makes no sense, being an overlooked drawing error on my part, which will be sorted on the next iteration, when I’ve cleaned my glasses and relocated the goods yard.

Regarding post 147, I’ll not compromise the branch line, so will test design parameters against available solutions and hope I recognise the result.

I’m also testing AnyRail and will probably look at SCARM again as well, to see if I can find my ‘je ne c’est quo’ to use them. If not, I have a cunning plan!

Well after a morning of hard rain, the sun has finally come out, so once the largest of the puddles has dried up, I’ll make my way across the yard and do some modelling. In the meantime, a spot of lunch I think!

Bill

[user=434]John Dew[/user] wrote:

Hi Bill

Glad you didnt mind my teasing

Short protection:
How would the power for point control and signalling be handled?

Dedicated accessory Bus. Relieves load on DCC bus and allows you to rest points when short has shut down DCC circuit…….most shorts are caused by locos accidentally entering incorrectly set turnout

Point control:
I’d like slow motion motors and automatic polarity switching (I dislike  the noise and thump of point motors) and understand this could be via  frog juicers or either Colbalt or Tortoise motors (not sure if one or  both do this). The wiring and panel requirements are at present  daunting.

I am a big fan of Tortoises. I have had at least 40 for a decade…..not one has failed…..rock solid and totally reliable

Tortoise have contacts for two additional auxilary switches. You can use one for automatically switching polarity and the other for LEDs or signals

Signals:
Now is the time to plan signalling. I have David J  Smith’s ‘GWR Signalling Practice’, a mighty 400 page tome which I’ve not  yet been brave enough to delve into. Now seems a good time to start and  discover what signals I need for the main lines and single line branch  and gain a sufficient understanding to decide how much complication I  want to get into

I think it would be too expensive and impractical to operate "correct" signals for the entire layout. It might be worth using the branch as a test bed. Working signals linked to turnouts would be a great visual indication the correct point was set when you start a train 10' away on the other side of the room 

Storage:
I’m not sure how much storage I need and will have to  schedule train formations and do some measuring and calculation. I  suppose this is one of those instances were too much is a bonus, but  getting sufficient storage may in fact be a challenge. I’m sure  occupancy detection would be a good idea, although I’ve not yet decided  how visible I want the sidings to be yet. I could add scenics to the  area and make it a big yard. What observations have you made over the  years regarding capacity?


Never enough! I am constantly trying to squeeze more space out of it.
It might be useful to guess your likely average operating time…….lets say two hours ….assuming a fast clock set at 4 ( many people use 6) that would equate with 8 hours in real time …..list the trains (and length) that you would expect to see in that time…then work out where all those trains will be stored…..not all ,of course, will be need to be in the yard……but it will help working out the ideal requirement for the yard

I like the idea of cassettes (wish I had them) but I dont think you would want to be loading while operating)

My watch words for storage yards are ….Space……Visibity……..Accessibilty.

Again too long a post…….perhaps I can expand on this tomorrow?

Cheers

John

Hi John,

Thank you for your sensible answers to my seemingly basic questions and for saving me hours of research which I can now spend on modelling, or indeed on hours of research, ha!

My research is ongoing with point motors, with pros and cons for both, so it will come down to factors most relevant to me personally, namely durability, reliability and quietness. Availability of Tortoise motors currently seems very low, while Colbalts are easily obtainable, but not an issue for me, as all Peco bullhead product is currently unavailable!  

Signalling the branch to begin with, sounds like a realistic plan and the Dapol powered units may fit the bill well. I have some old Ratio units from days gone past and they are a tad fragile and rely on pulling string to operate them, but they used to be fun to operate.

I’ve adopted a new mantra when even beginning to think about storage, which I hope will help reduce operating stress .  .  . Space  .  .  . Visibity   .  .  .  Accessibilty

Enough for now,

Many thanks,

Bill

Hi Bill,

You might want to look at Berret Hill (berrethillshop.com) for servo control of points along with a neat touch button control system.

Nigel

[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:

That's a great looking plan Bill - loads of operating and scenic potential there.  :thumbs
I'm delighted to hear electrics are a bit of a dark art to you too - I'll therefore be following your training sessions earnestly whilst pretending I knew it all along …………………..!

I'm not quite there myself yet but when I'm ready to install my "high level" branch line, I'll try to follow the advice I've been given on here - make your gradient much less than your plan suggests (to allow physical access to the lower "hidden" tracks where Murphy insists all derailments are scheduled to take place from the moment they become "hidden")  and, to facilitate that access, make the clearance between the two levels much greater than you first thought was adequate …………………….. !

You've seen my setup and I can have at least 3 or 4 locos running at the same time using my Lenz LS150 transformer which I think, churns out 5 amps so I'd also recommend the 5 amp upgrade. 

I use a combination of DC and DCC for point control together with assorted motors - Tortoise, surface mounted and SEEP solenoid types.  The surface mounted are used only where it's virtually impossible to fit either a tortoise or SEEP.  The Tortoises are superb and do have frog polarity changing facilities built in.  I've never used Cobalts although I understand they're very similar to the Tortoise.

Don't forget to let me know when you start your electronic journey - I'd hate to miss anything !!!  

Hi Peter,

It’s a shame that the only other UK outline modeller I know in France who could just pop round to help  with wiring the layout, shares the same proficiency level in that subject as me. Such a shame I never mastered this particular dark art in my formative years, but hey, it’s never too late to learn something new, so a new adventure begins.

The track plan has most of what I wanted but as indicative, will change as issues are resolved and the most important aspect to really sort out is the branch line gradient to enable good access to the storage roads. I have a relatively simple solution to extend the branch length for more height, but need to make a realistic estimation of gradient length against incline, together with accessible storage road capacity. My back up plan will to be to put in an emergency access hatch in the stud partition wall to reach the rearmost storage roads from the workshop side, but hopefully will not be necessary.

Good luck with your branch elevation and I look forward to comparing notes with you when the time comes.


Bon courage mon ami.


Bill

[user=1512]Headmaster[/user] wrote:

Like everyone else, Bill, the plan looks very exciting and I am envious of the space you have available - lucky boy!  Although you have quite a lot of features and plenty going on, you have also created a lot of space and areas for some super scenic work and having seen the quality of your modelling  I am sure it is going to be a treat for us to watch its progress.  And I will be particularly interested in seeing the raised branchline.
Ver exciting!

Michael 

Thanks you for your kind words Michael and I'm resisting putting lots of track into the space. It will never look like the railway swallowed by the scenery like at Pendon, but the branch at least should be a joy and I'm looking forward to the whole build process.

Thanks also for you comments on the point motor pole and it's good to know that the Colbalts are working well for you.

Bill

Nigel,

I've just took a very quick look at Berret Hill and their range looks very interesting indeed. Time to turn in here, but I'll take a longer look at their site again in the morning.

Great call, thank you muchly,

Bill

Lots of pertinent advice from those far better qualified than I - only comment I would make is SELL THE 2CV not the Triumph!  Hate to think of you giving up a classic roadster & being left with an inverted skip sheep carrier.  Anyway, doesn't your head stick out of the roof?  Just saying.
Like Triumphs - over the years we've had 2 x 2000s, a 2.5PI, Herald convertible, 2 x Spitfires & a Stag.

I'd absolutely agree with you Mal although 2CVs are extremely popular here in France but you're right -  IMHO, they're not in the same league as the Triumph but then selling the Triumph will realise far more cash to spend on the railway …….

Post college days I was the proud owner of a 1949 Triumph Roadster 2000 (the same model as the one John Nettles had in the TV series  "Bergerac".  I bought it as a wreck and rebuilt it over 2 or 3 years.  How I wish I still had her today …..

I've never had anything to do with 2CVs but I understsnd they're the Citroen equivalent to the Fergusson T20 tractor - 1 spanner and a pair of pliars fits all !!

  Hi Mal,

Peter is quite correct, as living in France, possession of a 2CV for an old car buff is almost compulsory, even more so since I parted with a 1950 Traction a few years back. The TR3 is a glorious beast which I’ve enjoyed to the full over the past 20 years, so time to move it on when the market picks up a little. Don’t worry though, we still have our first sports car, another TR from my late 20s, a really long time ago now, as I’m just a little younger than you.

By the way, the 2CV is a hoot to drive. The bride got it for me thinking it might slow me down, but it’s perfectly capable of being driven with great gusto and its engineering ingenuity is remarkable and yes, you can do most jobs on it with very little more than one spanner.

Best,

Bill

PS Peter, we're watching John Nettles right now in Midsummer Murders  :)