Is it me or are they getting worse?

There are some very interesting points made in the posts on this thread, most of which I am in agreement with.
 I particularly agree with the writer who points out that with exhibitions we are in the entertainment business. I also agree with the observation that most spectators spend but a few brief minutes in front of a layout. With both points some kind of movement is vital. If one has movement then in all but the most fussy of spectators will forgive the odd discrepancy.



 Most of my recent experience is in exhibiting and running Ackthorpe with the Southampton Model Railway Society. On that layout we have a mainline and operating colliery sidings so the visitors always have movement to keep them entertained. We barely ever receive a negative comment about the signals not working nor are we showered with praise for the fact that all of the trains that run on the main line are correct for the period and line on which the model is set. It is the constant movement that keeps people in front of the layout.
 Having said that we need 4 operators at any one time to keep things moving. The norm is for 6 operators to travel with the layout and setting up can take 3 hours. Just over 1 hour to set up the layout and over 1 1/2 hours to set the stock up on the 16 road fiddle yard. After that the first pint does not touch the sides! (Any SMRS members reading this who say that no pint ever touches my sides should be ignored!)


 At nearly 40 feet long Ackthorpe is the type of layout that only a large club could reasonably be expected to produce. An exhibition needs a variety of layouts of many sizes and scales. The small oval N gauge layout is just as vital because this may be the kind of project that a solo modeller who is thinking of entering the hobby and who is yet to develop their modelling skills could reasonably aspire to. A good exhibition should showcase as many levels of skill and attainment as possible thus leading the aspiring modeller on a journey from the basic start up project to the most sublime. If all the exhibits were the size of Ackthorpe then we would possibly scare people away from the hobby thinking that they could never achieve what our club has taken many years to get to its current state. Not to forget how much the stock cost!


 Purists should look away now! A Thomas layout for the young children is just as vital as the most exquisite hand made O gauge loco if the hobby is to keep going from generation to generation.


 I do agree with the comment about attempts at humour as over the years I have been visiting exhibitions I have seen most jokes repeated ad infinitum. They have ceased to be funny or original.


Ignoring the money paying public and their needs is not neccesary and I fully concur with the observation about people talking to their friends behind layouts and ignoring the spectators. It is just plain rude. There is nothing wrong with stopping operations and taking a breather if no one is in front of your layout in fact it is good common sense but as a customer approaches do get something moving.



 I can probably sum up my points by saying that an exhibition should not just entertain but inspire all standards of modeller as well. We should never judge what is on offer by our own narrow interests or standards. It is a difficult balance to keep and that is why I am not or ever will be our society's exhibition manager. God bless those who grasp that poisoned chalice.


 As a regular exhibitor I must bring up my biggest gripe; DCC sound at exhibitions. More precisely, DCC sound that is cranked up far too high, or more accurately; DCC noise.

If you have ever operated next to a diesel that has been left on tickover in a siding for a complete weekend you will know what I mean. Modern bing bong station announcements are bad enough in real life but to have them constantly in your ear for a whole weekend is a crime against humanity.

Like the lame joke on a layout; DCC sound is amusing at first but after a very short while the joke wears very thin. Exhibition managers please note and get them to turn the noise down.


 At one exhibition in Hampshire I was engaged to demonstrate soldering and loco kit building. I was plonked next to a G Scale layout with an American telephone ringing in a working blacksmiths' forge. After a polite request to turn the sound down I was told by the exhibition manager that it could not be turned down and that the kids liked it. On the Sunday of that weekend show my desk was empty. I was back home in my garden! As a solo exhibitor I now refuse to be put within earshot of a layout with DCC noise.

I can't disagree with your comments on DCC sound when it is over-loud.

As an exhibitor, the forms that Exhibition Managers ask us to fill in with layout details rarely ask for details on sound. I think that they should. This would enable them to consider better placement of layouts with loud sound.

My layout Much Murkle uses some analogue sound effects which we set up at each exhibition so that they can just be heard when stood directly in front of the layout (bird song etc). Nothing distracts more from the illusion of a sleepy branch line than for us to have a steam train coasting into the station to the sound of a very loud Sulzer or Brush engine from the stand next door. 

The comment about a Thomas type layout at every show is great and one that I know a number of clubs provide each year at their own shows. My club at Andover lets the youngsters drive the trains and regularly takes the layout to local fetes and open days at the area libraries.

I'd agree with a Thomas Layout for the children, We had one a couple of weeks ago at our show and it was exceedingly popular with the children runnning the trains…



There was another layout which allowed children to run trains, with the owner carefully explaining why / when they had to stop at signals(which worked) on his layout

[user=1729]MarkL71A[/user] wrote:

 As a regular exhibitor I must bring up my biggest gripe; DCC sound at exhibitions. More precisely, DCC sound that is cranked up far too high, or more accurately; DCC noise.

If you have ever operated next to a diesel that has been left on tickover in a siding for a complete weekend you will know what I mean. Modern bing bong station announcements are bad enough in real life but to have them constantly in your ear for a whole weekend is a crime against humanity.

Like the lame joke on a layout; DCC sound is amusing at first but after a very short while the joke wears very thin. Exhibition managers please note and get them to turn the noise down.


 At one exhibition in Hampshire I was engaged to demonstrate soldering and loco kit building. I was plonked next to a G Scale layout with an American telephone ringing in a working blacksmiths' forge. After a polite request to turn the sound down I was told by the exhibition manager that it could not be turned down and that the kids liked it. On the Sunday of that weekend show my desk was empty. I was back home in my garden! As a solo exhibitor I now refuse to be put within earshot of a layout with DCC noise.

We have been exhibiting our four Cardigan/Whitland layouts for the last three years (not all four at the same time!) and heartily agree with Marks observations above. The sounds are best kept for home layouts where they can be appreciated.
As our layouts are based on actual locations and illustrate the stations and line that disappeared 50 years ago, we attract a different sort of audience, who love to talk and reminisce, which we welcome, as we have modeled history rather than railway layouts, so lots of movement doesn't bother people too much.
Also more interest is shown in how we have constructed/built our layouts - oddly enough most enquiries come from mothers and pre-teenagers!

Having said all of that, we only exhibit in a small area - just West Wales, so the venues are small and friendly and on the whole the audiences are not expecting grand complicated layouts. Things are much more easy going than the likes of Thornbury, Taunton, et al.

Shaun.

It's all about interaction with the paying visitors. One thing we do in the modular club I belong to is to get on the outside when running a train. Radio control, so no issues about wiring. None of this lurking inside behind the back scene looking miserable. We walk our trains around, answer questions, stop the train for a closer look by the viewer, and generally interact with the audience. Forget about operation schedules and timetables, it's show and tell time.

We also let children drive the trains, under supervision. I deliberately run my GWR diesel railcars, which always generates a lot of interest as there are sure to be some ex-USAF personnel in the audience who were stationed in GWR/WR territory and remember riding in one. Plus an unpainted brass coffee grinder Pacific with a Belpaire boiler, which can turn into a guessing contest from the viewers.

It can get to be quite an exercise session, last show I calculated I had walked almost 2 miles. Average time a viewer spends is about 5 minutes, with children it's about 15 minutes before their parents drag them away.

Somebody comes along with a locomotive they just bought and want to run? Sure, and here's a leaflet about the club. Please join, it's all about having fun.

And we keep the sound down or turn it off.

Nigel

Another thing our club tried this year was:



 We had a small stand where the public to take their locomotives and our resident expert would try to fix them (and test run). 99% of the time he is successful as it's the usual wipers not making contact/ dirty wheels / fur clogging the gears.



 Next to this was a small stand with another club member  with a small piece to test track and half a dozen digital comand controllers, he spent the day talking to the public talking on what DCC is the differences between the controllers, and advising on their use.



 Both were successful experiments "involving" the public and they probably will be repeated.

Q - a very good point.

Exhibitions should show what has been done and what can be done.  I have never seen a show stand containing all the various gauge/scale combinations.  My wife, at first, struggled with 4mm scale and 2mm track as narrow gauge. 

"If it's the same size as your layout, why are the trains so small?" was a valid question.

The DCC control stand sounds a brilliant idea.  Dare I suggest (as an old fart analogist) that DCC vs DC comparison is a good idea??? [waits for bombs in the post]

I am always amazed by the modellers who are brave enough to demonstrate at shows - loco building, tree construction, etc etc.  I cannot remember someone doing track laying, ballasting, baseboard construction.  Q - Your club may be on to this already.

Personally, I'm not a fan of "under construction" layouts although I get the idea that they could be used to explain how things are made/built.

Barry

At the Norwich MRC show a couple of years ago , they had a circular test track with a good half dozen track gauges, all running at the same time.
So how many gauges are there?  I think too many to demonstrate at one place  
T
Z
N
2mm finescale
TT
H0
00
EM
P4/S4
S
0 
7mm
You can have Narrow gauge versions of any of them and I've missed out various versions of track width / fine scale. Let alone broad gauge / Irish gauge in the various mm scales. Or to be really obscure there are a few who practice the old imperial gauges such as 3/4 inch gauge.

Q

Bearing in mind you are talking to the newcomers of the hobby, N, OO and O with perhaps OO9 and O-16.5 should cover the basics.  Clearly, photos or individual models can demonstrate the 2mm and 4mm finescale options.

TT ans S are rare so if we give people a reference point, they can appreciate that TT "sits between N and OO" etc.

Barry

Getting back to the original point of this thread.

I have been involved with a fair number of shows over the years, from the viewpoint of vendors in the skiing industry, model clubs from the viewpoint of the radio controlled model boat clubs and the fare paying public as regards model engineering, model railway and many others so I think I have gleaned a good deal of experience from many an angle.

One thing that strikes me above all else is the huge amount of work and resources that people put into such shows.  Vendors obviously accept this as a part of thier chosen means of making a living and have to balance this against the benefits of the income it produces. 

Clubs however are a completely different ball game.  Clubs put on stands at shows for no other reason than the promotion of thier clubs and the hobby in general.  They hope to generate new members and foster interest particularly from new and young modellers who we all accept are the future of many a hobby, and its associated industry.  Many club members put huge amounts of thier own spare time into the organisation of the attendance of such shows and give this time freely for no gain to themselves.  They regularly spend significant amounts of money of fuel and hotel accomodation as well as meals and other general expenses, usually out of thier own pocket. 

Thier thanks for this seem to be all too frequently nowadays nothing more than reading a string of complaints when they get around to reading on line forums.  What I cannot quite understand is that those amongst the various groups I am referring to who have greater levels of knowledge about certain issues seem to prefer to complain on line rather than spending some time sharing thier greater knowledge in a more productive and positive way.  This could involve nothing more than a conversation at the stand in question with those who are comitting the unforgivable crime of connecting the wrong locomotive to the wrong waggon/coach/other locomotive in an attempt to help them improve thier presentation.  I cannot help but think however that those who seem to think that they have a right to be entertained would not spend such time and effort to engage in such conversations as there would appear to be far more credibility to be had letting the entire world know via a forum just how much more knowledgeable they are about a particular subject. 

I think anyone who is a member of a club who puts thier own time, effort and funds into supporting a club to put a stand on at a show should be applauded and supported in any way we can.  Without them the layouts would not even be on display and we would have nothing to enjoy looking at.  We should be encouraging them and offerring our advice in a positive way not looking for ways to advertise greivances that are designed to make us look smarter.

If I had just spent the amount of time it takes to display my layout at a show and then read this thread I would be sorely tempted to simply give up.  If they all did that the shows would soon die out and all we would have left is a lonely few waiting, in the middle of a large and empty hall, to be entertained.

Well put Richard and I'm also most happy that the UK exhibition circuit is so well populated with all levels of layouts and skilled modellers, not all of them professional performers, yet all possessed of great enthusiasm for our hobby.

Please never give up though, as unfortunately, some will never be satisfied with anything less than their own perceived perfection.

Bill

Bunkerbarge wrote:

Thier thanks for this seem to be all too frequently nowadays nothing more than reading a string of complaints when they get around to reading on line forums.  What I cannot quite understand is that those amongst the various groups I am referring to who have greater levels of knowledge about certain issues seem to prefer to complain on line rather than spending some time sharing thier greater knowledge in a more productive and positive way.  This could involve nothing more than a conversation at the stand in question with those who are comitting the unforgivable crime of connecting the wrong locomotive to the wrong waggon/coach/other locomotive in an attempt to help them improve thier presentation.  I cannot help but think however that those who seem to think that they have a right to be entertained would not spend such time and effort to engage in such conversations as there would appear to be far more credibility to be had letting the entire world know via a forum just how much more knowledgeable they are about a particular subject. 

Very well said, sir!I cannot agree more. I recently went to a local show and I have to confess, initially, I wasn't all that impressed by the line up of layouts. However, I made the most of it, actually spending time looking at the layouts that were there, even though they may not have been my area of interest.
Do you know what?
I ended up enjoying myself!
Operations on layouts that initially were a bit suspect, improved as the guest operator got to grips with how the layout 'worked', I met and conversed with some folk I knew and I ended up taking an interest in something that was outside my usual area of interest. Oh! And, my 'negative' friend left the building!

I've been both a trader, organiser, operator and visitor at many different kinds of show and when I think about the time and effort I have put in, I would hate to think that someone whose 'enjoyment' I haven't quite managed to fill, wouldn't criticise me too harshly.

Thinking some more about this and my own experiences with showing my layouts;
Have everything on the layout tested prior to the show.
Make sure the layout has thoroughly clean track & wheels at the start of every day.
All rolling stock to have been 'fettled' prior to the show.
Whatever operating sequence you have, make sure any operators are familiar with it before the doors open, whenever possible. I appreciate that if you are a one-man band and someone from the host club covers while you are on break, this is an exception, not the rule.
Whether the layout is a 'work in progress' or fully complete, all trackwork and wiring to be in full working order.
Any failures of rolling stock to be removed asap and repairs effected off-scene or at home.
If 'sound' is used, make it innocuous so it can barely be heard at a neighbouring stand and CERTAINLY NOT across the hall!

I don't mind seeing the occasional layout with incomplete scenery or 'under construction' but I do object to seeing layouts with the same faults over and over again. I like to see trains run/operating and without constant derailments or stalling, faulty trackwork/stock is not acceptable.

If you're showing a 'complete' layout then yes, have working signals, tail lights, drivers & firemen, passengers and goods carried - otherwise, it's not a 'complete' layout, is it?

I hope this is food for thought!
John.

Over the past couple of years our local Exhibition has really gone downhill. Once we had a 2 day show over two floors of the Local Guildhall but are now reduced one day show in a  Church Hall. A  good quarter of the hall is give over to the refreshments area, there are about three or four trade stands (mostly overpriced 2nd hand stuff of dubious quality) and about 4 or 5 small layouts which had very little actually moving. As the hall is no bigger than an average small shop you can imagine how crowded it can be, and as most of the layouts are about 5ft above the floor difficult for the youngsters to see unless Dad is available to lift them up. (Mind you looking at the girth of some of the kids Dad would need to be built like Arnold Swartzeneger). I still go along as a matter of loyalty but now instead of it taking  me a day to see everything I can do it in  about 30 mins. Price to get in hasn't dropped much though and it's still £3.50 for a wafer thin cheese sarnie and a plastic cup (small) of tea.

[user=2063]Bunkerbarge[/user] wrote:

Getting back to the original point of this thread.

I have been involved with a fair number of shows over the years, from the viewpoint of vendors in the skiing industry, model clubs from the viewpoint of the radio controlled model boat clubs and the fare paying public as regards model engineering, model railway and many others so I think I have gleaned a good deal of experience from many an angle.

One thing that strikes me above all else is the huge amount of work and resources that people put into such shows.  Vendors obviously accept this as a part of thier chosen means of making a living and have to balance this against the benefits of the income it produces. 

Clubs however are a completely different ball game.  Clubs put on stands at shows for no other reason than the promotion of thier clubs and the hobby in general.  They hope to generate new members and foster interest particularly from new and young modellers who we all accept are the future of many a hobby, and its associated industry.  Many club members put huge amounts of thier own spare time into the organisation of the attendance of such shows and give this time freely for no gain to themselves.  They regularly spend significant amounts of money of fuel and hotel accomodation as well as meals and other general expenses, usually out of thier own pocket. 

Thier thanks for this seem to be all too frequently nowadays nothing more than reading a string of complaints when they get around to reading on line forums.  What I cannot quite understand is that those amongst the various groups I am referring to who have greater levels of knowledge about certain issues seem to prefer to complain on line rather than spending some time sharing thier greater knowledge in a more productive and positive way.  This could involve nothing more than a conversation at the stand in question with those who are comitting the unforgivable crime of connecting the wrong locomotive to the wrong waggon/coach/other locomotive in an attempt to help them improve thier presentation.  I cannot help but think however that those who seem to think that they have a right to be entertained would not spend such time and effort to engage in such conversations as there would appear to be far more credibility to be had letting the entire world know via a forum just how much more knowledgeable they are about a particular subject. 

I think anyone who is a member of a club who puts thier own time, effort and funds into supporting a club to put a stand on at a show should be applauded and supported in any way we can.  Without them the layouts would not even be on display and we would have nothing to enjoy looking at.  We should be encouraging them and offerring our advice in a positive way not looking for ways to advertise greivances that are designed to make us look smarter.

If I had just spent the amount of time it takes to display my layout at a show and then read this thread I would be sorely tempted to simply give up.  If they all did that the shows would soon die out and all we would have left is a lonely few waiting, in the middle of a large and empty hall, to be entertained.

Oh dear.  Those of us who have been critical of exhibitors seem to have hit a nerve.

If that has happened as a result of any of my comments, then I fear that I have failed to get my point across.

I do feel that I have a right to be entertained as I have paid cash to walk into an exhibition.  If I am playing my guitar at a concert and ask people to pay, then they have the same right to entertainment.  No difference in my book.

However, I make no claims of superiority and seek no credibility through this debate.

My own Yarslow layout is posted on this forum and is shown, warts and all.  I am critical of it (and my ability) and proud of it (and my achievements) in the same way as everyone else is on this forum when they show off their layouts.  I am happy to give and receive constructive, positive criticism, applaud good modelling, seek guidance from those who have more knowledge/experience than I and share my projects/plans for those interested in copying/avoiding them. 

I am also willing to throw challenging questions out there for debate.

I am very much impressed by those brave souls who, at great expense of time, energy, cash and committment, put their layouts on display for us all to see.  It is a role I have played myself on occasions in the model railway world, as a wargamer and a life-long musician.  They produce some very nice layouts of thought-provoking subjects with quality scenery, interesting cameos, some humour (I personally don't object to clever/funny scenarios), fine buildings, working signals (showing up those of us who struggle in that department) etc etc.  It's the "operation" that leaves me wincing.

Have I spoken to exhibitors about crash-and-bang shunting, fly-shunting coaching stock, rapid stop/start movements et al ?  Yes and, with the vast majority, I have enjoyed a friendly conversation. 

I would never have such a conversation over a barrier at a busy show, preferring to have a chat at a quiet moment over the fiddle yard facia board.  Even then, I would only reference Essery or Jenkinson rather than dive in with "Of course, as an expert, I ……….."

Am I an expert on operation?  No but I would describe myself as knowledgable because I have absorbed the writings of Bob Essery, David Jenkinson, Iain Rice, Barry Norman, Frank Dyer, Robert Hendry and others.  Am I an expert on train formations? No but I am an avid reader of the works of Steve Banks (LNER), David Jenkinson/Bob Essery (LMS), Paul Karau (GWR) and others.  They are the experts.

I try to operate my layout in accordance with the rules of the real railway using trains that the real railway may have used.  I try to emulate the pace and procedures of the real railway where I can.  That is why I have researched the names above.  If you are asking me to pay money to look at your layout, is it unfair that I should expect you to do the same?

Hi Barry,

Hardly surprising that you’ll touch a nerve by repeatedly pressing your point, that you are not satisfied by operator performance at exhibitions. We get the point.

Just because you continue to state your preference, doesn’t mean everyone is going to agree with you. Your overriding desire is to be entertained, besides being informed (correct details for period, region, etc), suggests a requirement for excellent layouts run perfectly.

  Fair enough, except that this utopian concept is of course unrealistic, as we all know exhibitions cover a wide range of layouts for people on both sides of the baseboards.

  Not all contrary opinions to your own are a result of you failing to get your point across Barry. There are simply different views and ours (railway modelling) is a broad church and long may it be so.

  However, such comments about exhibitors as ‘These guys have given it their best and I'm not satisfied’ seem to indicate some lack of tolerance for other modellers. I referred in an earlier post that the only operational practice many get, particularly with a larger layout, is at the exhibitions, so we should cut a little slack where necessary.

  I guess this would be that good time for us all to sit down.

Best regards,

  Bill
  

[user=2063]Bunkerbarge[/user] wrote:

Getting back to the original point of this thread.

I have been involved with a fair number of shows over the years, from the viewpoint of vendors in the skiing industry, model clubs from the viewpoint of the radio controlled model boat clubs and the fare paying public as regards model engineering, model railway and many others so I think I have gleaned a good deal of experience from many an angle.

One thing that strikes me above all else is the huge amount of work and resources that people put into such shows.  Vendors obviously accept this as a part of thier chosen means of making a living and have to balance this against the benefits of the income it produces. 

Clubs however are a completely different ball game.  Clubs put on stands at shows for no other reason than the promotion of thier clubs and the hobby in general.  They hope to generate new members and foster interest particularly from new and young modellers who we all accept are the future of many a hobby, and its associated industry.  Many club members put huge amounts of thier own spare time into the organisation of the attendance of such shows and give this time freely for no gain to themselves.  They regularly spend significant amounts of money of fuel and hotel accomodation as well as meals and other general expenses, usually out of thier own pocket. 

Thier thanks for this seem to be all too frequently nowadays nothing more than reading a string of complaints when they get around to reading on line forums.  What I cannot quite understand is that those amongst the various groups I am referring to who have greater levels of knowledge about certain issues seem to prefer to complain on line rather than spending some time sharing thier greater knowledge in a more productive and positive way.  This could involve nothing more than a conversation at the stand in question with those who are comitting the unforgivable crime of connecting the wrong locomotive to the wrong waggon/coach/other locomotive in an attempt to help them improve thier presentation.  I cannot help but think however that those who seem to think that they have a right to be entertained would not spend such time and effort to engage in such conversations as there would appear to be far more credibility to be had letting the entire world know via a forum just how much more knowledgeable they are about a particular subject. 

I think anyone who is a member of a club who puts thier own time, effort and funds into supporting a club to put a stand on at a show should be applauded and supported in any way we can.  Without them the layouts would not even be on display and we would have nothing to enjoy looking at.  We should be encouraging them and offerring our advice in a positive way not looking for ways to advertise greivances that are designed to make us look smarter.

If I had just spent the amount of time it takes to display my layout at a show and then read this thread I would be sorely tempted to simply give up.  If they all did that the shows would soon die out and all we would have left is a lonely few waiting, in the middle of a large and empty hall, to be entertained.

Well done Terry, that's those issues dealt with. 

sorry Bill - I thought that what I said had been misconstrued

Hi guys

Would you like me to lock it - delete it?

Your call.

Cheers