Heavy duty bus and thin droppers??

[user=1801]Passed Driver[/user] wrote: Hi Nigel.    What or Who is a box shifter?     all the best. Kevin

In the UK the likes of Hatton's, Model Railways Direct, Rails of Sheffield etc.

A "box shifter" is a discount volume seller Kevin - mainly online.  Normally, they don't bother much about the "finer" things to do with model railways but are price cutters for RTR items - usually coming in "boxes", locos, rolling stock etc. etc. and rely on "shifting" a high volume at low margins - hence "box shifters".

I'll bet they sell 50 locos for every one sold by your local high streeet model shop and nowadays, they do seem to be getting much better at offering other, smaller/cheaper, items and advice.

Hi Petermac.    Thank you for your reply. Sounds like the "Tesco Founder" , "Stack them high Sell them Cheap".and it worked for him, okay.   all the best. Kevin

[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:

 your local high street model shop 

What's one of them, do they still exist anywhere outside big cities  quest:  :sad:  :sad:

Ed

Hi Ed.   Too true , I remember when ( I'm really showing my age now) there were so many shops within walking distance from either home or work, you would have thought that they would always be there. I don't mean "Just Toyshops" either. Near Charing Cross you had Hamblimgs, and Allan Brett Cannon at London Bridge, not forgetting Kings Cross models, and many many more.  all the best. Kevin

Hi All,
I hope I made not a mistake, replying to an over 2 years  or nearly 3 years old thread, but the questions and maybe Infos I have handling about this topic and to open a new topic would be not a well idea?

Well I did in 1995 a two year electronical retraining course but without end exam. So I learnd some useful and helpful things about electricity and electronics as base Knowledge.

Here in central europe specially in germany our public electricity net changed the AC Voltage from 220 V AC within one decade into EU Standards of 230 V AC.
before 1996: 
220 V ~ AC +/-  5 V by 50 Hz
from 1996 to 2006:
230 V ~ AC + 5 V/- 10 V by 50 Hz
since 2006:
230 V ~ AC +/- 10 V by 50 Hz
Older AC equipment is allowed to used by own risk.

Telephone Copper wire have got two pairs of drilled wire blank GND wire which is drilled together into the bigger cable. Each of the four wires have solid cores of 0,24 square mm.
The Telekom is using 60 V = DC for speaking and 60 V ~ AC for ringing.
For using as DC or DCC bus wire, the double drilled cables can making problems.

Much better are undrilled cables or flexible wires.

The modern Standards for house electrics are NYM cables with solid cores: Phase 1 (brown), 0 (blue) and Ground (yellow-green) of 1,5 square mm. Allowed fuses are up to 16 A.
At some old northern german houses, the "Short 0" is sometimes allowed by not lighting floors like wooden floors, than sometimes the GND wire is not existing or anywhere connected with the 0 blue wire.
In such causes it can happen that electric stuff with metal surfaces have the full current against earth of 230 V ~ AC onto it. There will be a danger of an Accident when using longer wires inside household to rooms with stone floors or rooms with water supplies.

Solid Core copper cables or flexible multi core copper wires:
(0,5 sq mm in diameter - fuse of 3 A)
0,75 sq mm - fuse of 6 A.
1 sq mm - fuse of 10 A.
1,5 sq mm - neozed fuse of 13 A, old 16 A.
2 sq mm - fuse of 16 A.
2,5 sq mm - fuse of 25 A.

For layout or module bus wiring,
1 sq mm to 1,5 sq mm works best on cheap prices. More expensive is the 2,5 sq mm wire. 

Connections of in minimum all 50 cm to the tracks can be done with 0,5 sq mm wires.

Very often will be forgotten the to do the connection between power pack or DCC Central Unit…it is important to do it with the same diameter of the bus of under the layout or modules.

In central europe most DCC Central units have 3 A, shortly 3,5 A.
Bigger DCC Units using 5 A.

For wiring of model railway equipment the most manufacturers using the 0,12 sq mm or 0,24 sq mm wires…these are in most causes too thin at all.

What kind of cable or wire diameters are you sing for your layout or modules?

Me I am using as Standard 1,5 sq mm solid core copper cables forthe module bus and connecting all 50 cm with 0,5 sq mm to the tracks.
Will this work well?

For Switching electrics I use where needed 16 V ~ AC.
My plan is to remove the Interlocking Electrics and changing it into a lever and piano cord system to do the interlocking manually.
I use DCC for driving trains only.

Hi Ingo,

I follow NMRA recommended practices for DCC wiring. These are described using AWG (American Wire Gauge) sizes. Difficult to make a direct comparison with European wiring, usually described in mm². Which refers to the area of copper, not the diameter. Most modelers use copper wiring, either solid or stranded. Good conductivity and low resistance, and easy to solder. Modern motors mean that the high amperage seen with old stock is not an issue.

12-14 gauge wiring is usually sufficient for the bus on a short to medium size layout. I use 14 gauge solid copper as it is easier to work with than 12 gauge. What this corresponds to in IEC 62208 is not exact. For example 14 gauge approximates to 2 mm². I use 18 gauge or 22 gauge for the droppers. 1 mm² or 0.75 mm² would be the closest metric wire sizing.

What we should actually be interested in is the resistance of the wire and the associated voltage drop. This is the reason for a large diameter bus wire, and short and frequent droppers of a smaller diameter every 3 feet /1 m. Nickel silver brass alloy rail has significant resistance and voltage drops over long runs, one of the reasons for wiring droppers at regular intervals. Even a short or small layout will have small voltage drops that can impact running (DCC control still runs the motor with PWM DC current even although the track is half phase AC).

14 gauge/2mm² wire is good for around 6 Amp for power transmission (long distance), 32 Amp for chassis wiring (short distance), over a distance of 0-50 feet it is usually good for 18 Amp (15 Amp over 15 m). For 18 gauge wire this drops to 19 Amp and 2.3 Amp respectively, over a distance of 0-50 feet it is good for 10 Amp (7 Amp over 15 m).

Look at the small diameter of the wires of ESU decoders (around 28 gauge) and the frog wires supplied with Peco switches (similar). What we wire a layout with is far beyond the requirements of the decoder or the motor. It is the requirement for minimizing the voltage drop that dictates the wiring size, along with the fact that a large layout may be running 4-5 locomotives at once (and require 10 gauge/6mm² bus wiring). My small layouts run perfectly fine using an NCE system with a 2 Amp nominal output. Usually good for 2-3 modern locomotives or 1 old dinosaur.

Good practice to wire in a circuit breaker (or more for a larger layout with power sectors or blocks) in case of electrical shorts.

I know absolutely nothing about AC power or control of AC motors (domestic wiring excepted).

Nigel

Hi Nigel,
Me I am re-motorising some older "dinosaur" kits or older DC locos from time to time or I am adding digital decoders to them.

For my bus wiring I use 2,5 sq mm under the modules or planks.

My DCC Unit has a 3 A nominal output to the layout. For my project it is enough.

The modules should be used to be joined together on meeting with other modellers.