HOW TO GET THEM TO WORK

I've got two right hand and two left hand med. rad. electrofrog turnouts linking two tracks together. As you can see I've put plastic fishplates on the "V" of the turnouts and all track and turnouts have drop wires soldered. When all linked together my test buzzer rings out a fault, when i place  the tester probe on one line of the track  it buzzes through when I touch the opposite line on the same track? this should not happen. I've checked the wiring under the baseboard and that is ok so am I putting to many feed wires on the track or have I not put enough plastic fish plates on the turnouts. Please don't recommend reading some ones wiring article because the confuse me. Thanks to any one who can advise me.

I think the problem is that you have put the insulating rail joiners in the wrong place. Take one of you points and hold it facing away from you with the single bit nearest your body. You put the isolating joiners on both of the diverging lines, i.e. what would be straight ahead has ordinary joiners, what turns off has plastic ones. Hope this helps

Thanks...so as understand you if I use my first picture as an example the two linked turnouts have to many plastic fishplates, there should only be two that is on the turnout sides only the ones linking my two main tracks......thanks

Yes, that's it. where you have to points coming into each other and crossing, like in a cross-over both the cross-over rails have to isolated, the through rails don't. Always remember too that you only put a feed to the toe of the point (that's the bit where to switching takes place).

Bittern is right Mike - the simplest way, and without confusing the issue, with electrofrog points, you put insulated rail joiners on BOTH the frog rails.  The frog is the "V" shaped bit of rail.  Each point will therefore, need 2 insulated joiners although obviously, in the case of a crossover, 1 of these insulated joiners will already be fitted to the opposite point (you can't join an insulated joiner to an insulated joiner ………..:???:).

I think you have a wiring problem rather than a joiner problem.  How do you switch polarity on the frogs ?  Your photos don't show any switching but, with electrofrog points, you must do this otherwise you'll get a dead short as soon as you try to use the crossover.

Looking at the shot where you've lifted one point, the upper rail of the upper point is wired red.  When you lay the point down, that red rail will meet a black rail ……………unless you've changed colour coding on the lower track.  "Normal" wiring practice suggests either outer (or furthest from you) or inner (closest to you) rail red, the other black - regardless of how many tracks you have.

Thanks for your reply Petermac…no I've got no switch for polarity as I was under the impression for just a straight forward switch I did not need them. I'm no mastermind with these !!**!! live turnouts so after going on so many online sights I'm going back to using insulfrog turnouts…less of a problem.

Hang on in there Mike.  The first one is daunting and yes, there is a little more wiring involved but, IMHO, the running qualities more than cancel out the extra work compared with insulfrogs.

If you're running modern diesels with all wheel pickup, then no problem but, as soon as you try to run an 0-6-0 tank engine over insulfrogs, particularly at slow speed, they'll stutter and stall.

I was a diehard insulfrog man myself - for exactly the reasons you're fed up with electros - then, having wired my first one (with lots of help from the guys on here), it clicked and I wouldn't go back to insuls for all the tea in China. ;-)

I think, but I'm not certain, that for just running straight through, you don't need frog switching but you do need to remove some of the factory fitted link wires underneath.

They look like Peco points so the leaflet that comes with the point, shows you a tiny wire underneath bridging a pre-cut gap in each of the rails.  Just grab this with pliars and pull it off.  You then provide power to the long silver wire (folded under the frog rails) to power up the frog.  It's this wire that needs switching.

You said it wasn't necessary (switching) for straight through running.  You're right - it isn't, but why would you want to just have straight through running …………….? :roll::roll::roll:

That's a good idea, Mike - unless you have short wheelbase locos.

Then you will need to switch the frogs, or the locos will stall.

Sorry for the doom and gloom but here is a quick explanation of my layout being built. First of all being a person with no knowledge of the modern and old railway system I love trains and everyting about it so from this I love watching my railway stock circle around its track. From the small bedroom I'm now in the loft, table built Ive laid an up line and a down line running parallel with each other going up an incline running at an higher level down an incline through a tuunel back under the incline and into sidings either side of my main lines, through a station and on we go around again.Its here on the main lines running through the sidings before the station that I want the two turnovers to work. If you look at my other pictures in my photos gallery some old pictures may give a better idea. Hope my words make sense.

I remember seeing those photos in another thread Mike. :thumbs  A useful space you have there but be careful not to over crowd it with track ……………..:roll::roll:

You haven't said what type of loco you plan to run - steam or diesel - "pre-owned" or newly manufactured ?

Insulfrogs - sometimes called "dead" frogs or electrofrogs - sometimes called "live" frogs - which type ? hmm

As Max said, insulfrogs are easy-peasy but there is a price to pay for simplicity.  That price lies in the "dead" frog - i.e. a frog with no power.  If all the loco wheels are on this dead section at the same time, the loco will stop !  Even if one wheel is on a "live" section, but it's slightly dirty, or the pickup isn't what it should be, it will at best, stutter.  At worst, stop.

There is no "dead" frog on electrofrog points so the stopping doesn't happen.  Of course, both your track and wheels need to be clean in each case.

Wiring electrofrogs isn't difficult but you do need to switch the frog polarity somehow.  Many electric point motors have a switching facility already built into the motor.  If you're "hand throwing" the points, then you'll need an electro-mechanical method of switching.  Micro switches are probably the easiest option although it is perfectly feasible to make your own switching method via a push-rod and contact as you throw the point.

Decide on your stock and, if it's current range diesels, they'll have multi wheel, if not all wheel, pickup so insulfrog would be fine - and easy.  If your stock is steam, short wheelbase tank engines etc., then I'd recommend you try to get your head around wiring the electro frogs.  You won't be sorry - I promise !!! ;-)

Modern image diesel…most of my locos have been bought in the last ten years and are good runners and the rakes they pull tend to be freight I have only a few coaches. The diesels are of the 60's to now that is class 25's (Bachmann) to 47's (Heljan) and class 56's (Hornby), my locos vary in classes and age of grouping and on my last count I must have around 26 engines hence a no no to dcc. From the comments I have read I will have another go at live turnouts. I think the best thing I can do is draw to my best ability a plan of my main lines and sidings and from that hopefully will be given the best plan of action with regards to plastic fish plates and wiring. Off to bed now but tomorrow evening a drawing will be done.

Have a read of this
http://brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html#live

it should help to understand Electrofrog wiring

Thanks to all that tried to help me with my electrofrog  problem. I am going to give it another go and if I still cant get them to work ??????? I know I'm not alone with electrofrog problems with regards to DC wiring and yes I know they run and look better than insulfrog…..so if any of you can magic some of your wiring knowledge over it would be received with a big smile….Ron, Ive looked at brian lamberts sight and some of it makes sense but a lot of it does not and I do wish there was a simple mans sight for DC wiring only so this DCC would not get in the way.

I am firmly in the old fashioned analogue or DC camp and have used electrofrogs for years. I've never had to use polarity switching and everything always seems to run ok. After all, they are designed to work without it. The important thing to remember is that you must always power the toe of the point. If I'm using a run-round loop I tend to put the insulating fishplates in the centre of the loop on all four rails. Over the next few days I'll do some drawings and put up on here to show how I do it.

The pic below should help you

Thankyou, thankyou for your help. This crude plan just displays a little of my electrofrog problem. My layout being 12 foot  by 8 foot  a double track running together around the table and at one side I shall be putting some sidings to run into and around a station. The plan above shows where the sidings will go….any better ideas will be welcomed. thanks again

 you will need to put insulators in between the two points as you have the turnout sides facing each other. I'll try and modify your drawing to show you what I mean





That ought to work although you could do away with one of the two feeds on the outer circuit left hand side  and again in the middle of the inner circuit

Thanks…as I said earlier the drawing I sent you is just the foundation of what I hope to achieve. The two tracks are laid all around the tables and where the drawing displays the turnouts linking the main track have been put down but alas shorts, the two turnouts one above and the other below are for sidings that will link to and around the station. When I can I will send a fuller plan….A picture of where the track ends for the station I will send with this message. Don't mean to insult your intelligence but the poor drawing plus sidings all lead to the platforms and those two final electrofrog turnouts

 Hi its me again the guy with live frog problems, I said that I would forward a plan of my track problem but to be honest I've found that to be a problem in itself. My track has been laid with no true forward plan, the first part has been ok as it is only the non sceni
c run around section.

With this message I've added a rough sketch of my table top with the area of board I need some ideas on, that is how to add a small station, some sidings either side of the main lines and what to fill in the section to the left of the sketch. There are no measurements I know but if required I will add them. My idea was to put a diesel maintenance depot in the section to the far left, sidings in the middle section in front of the upper level track and a curved station to the right of the drawing, Ideas would be helpful.

Measurements are fairly important Mike ………..;-)

At first reading, it sounds as if you're trying to fit a quart into a pint pot ………(if you know those volume measurements :roll:).

It's worth bearing in mind that a point in "OO" Gauge, will require around a linear foot (30cms) to allow for clearance etc.  If you have 4 sidings, you'd need at least a 3 way point plus one other - that's an absolute minimum of 60 cms - just for the points !!

If you're in "N" Gauge, then the distances are about half …………..:thumbs

Overcrowding is one of the most common mistakes with new layouts. :roll:

IMPERIAL MEASUREMENTS PRETTY WELL SPOT ON, METRIC MEASUREMENTS JUST A QUICK GLANCE AT TAPE MEASURE.

Hi thanks for the reply, yes I do realise I might be asking for to much. Hopefully the measurements added will give you a good idea of what area I have got to play with. At the end of the day if all that I can fit in in this space is ??, I don't mind as long I can fully detail it and run my modern image stock. If you or some one can suggest something for the small area top left…brill.