This stability issue does seem to crop up regularly with this type of RR.

It seems to me, from looking at photos etc, that the saddle base is too narrow compared to the height so they all look slightly "gangly" or "top-heavy".  Making the base wider would go some way towards solving the problem but that would restrict how close together one could set them on the rails.  Reducing their height may well not be feasible because one would end up with very small rollers.  My preference therefore, would be a road where the roller carriers can sit outside the loco track width - as do those on the Zeller RR.

[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:

Thanks again Colin.

There appear to be two "Zeller" rolling roads on the market.  Not sure what the relationship is between them but there is or was, certainly a family tie-up because they both sell the same product - or at least it looks the same online.

There's a "Marion Zeller" who produces one which, as I said, looks the same as that marketed by Ten Commandments but theirs is, according to them, manufactured by "KPF Zeller".

The former is far more expensive than the latter so I wonder if there's been a family split and "KPF" are trying to kill of "Marion" ………………..  Maybe, on the other hand, that from "Marion" is of far higher quality ……………….. :hmm

I'm going to have a look at delivery restrictions regarding the length.  "Marion" does a huge one at 1 metre long but the largest "KPF" offering is, I think, 800mm long and comes with 10 rollers.  Their website is terrible !!!

I bought mine from Marion Zeller some years ago & added extra rollers from ten commandments.
My rolling road is 540mm long.

Tony.

That's interesting Tony - they must therefore, be the same design because Ten Commandments import theirs from KPF Zeller and if the rollers are the same ……………….

I wonder why there's such a big price difference between the two Zellers…………………… :hmm

[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:

That's interesting Tony - they must therefore, be the same design because Ten Commandments import theirs from KPF Zeller and if the rollers are the same ……………….

I wonder why there's such a big price difference between the two Zellers…………………… :hmm

The extra rollers I bought are exactly the same as the rollers I got originally so the same design & manufacturer.

Tony.

I use a DCC Concepts set of six rollers. They were a bit unstable, easily knocked over while trying to place a multi-wheeled locomotive on them, so I modified them by drilling two holes horizontally through them, parallel to the track axis, and threaded some piano wire through the lot, allowing them to slide but keeping them upright.

Probably not what YOUR looking for this time round Peter, but I'll throw these in to the mix
http://www.directtrainspares-burnley.co.uk/page25.html

I got mine at a show years ago and they have done me well. I got the four set and eventually just cut some blocks of wood to the right height to add extra support on the few locos that needed it. The added bonus is that if I want to check pickups on just ONE set of wheels I can just use one set of rollers and support the rest of the loco on the wood blocks. Just to clarify, the wood blocks fit lengthways BETWEEN the rails, supporting the body and leaving the wheels hanging free so only those sets of wheels that have a roller placed under them have electrical contact.  Probably not your cheapest option but combined with a dedicated piece of code 100 track fitted on a stiff piece of board, i find it covers most combinations for me

Cheers

Matt

Thanks Matt.
I had seen these saddles advertised and they do appear to be slightly lower than some, therfore, I guess, more stable.

The block of wood idea is great - you ought to send that to Trevor for inclusion in his "Hints and Tips" column.  The method would also be useful for cleaning wheels, axle by axle ……

A new toy arrived this morning :



It's a new product manufactured by a company called PM Bespoke Models.  They also do laser cut buildings and many other useful "bits and bobs" but I heard about this rolling road via Paul Chetter.

It's a heavy piece of kit, dual gauge (O and OO/HO) and hand built from black acrylic sheet, aluminium and steel rollers.  It cost me £95 ex works and comes with a set of 4 rollers and a cradle to support a tender where necessary.  In the case of steam locos, the front bogie sits on a support above the plug-in power input.



The rollers, which slide along the aluminium power strips, are all ball races so very free running.  Extra rollers are available at, I think, £10 each.

The cradle for the tender does not collect power so, in the case of all wheel collection, one would need to buy the required number of rollers.



At 500mm long, it's long enough for any loco I'm ever going to run.

As I said, it only arrived today so it's early days but an initial test run suggested it's a great piece of kit and I'm very happy with my purchase.

What an interesting piece of kit Peter. It certainly feeds the gadget lust in us all and I wish you both many happy years together.

Have fun and let us know how the programming goes.

Bill

Hi Peter,

That's a bit naughty not powering the tender cradle. Even if a locomotive is tender driven it's nice to check the driving wheels (and more importantly front pickups). Or the tender pickups when fitted.

By the looks of it it's also OO specific.

Nigel

Tender drive is discredited nowadays Nigel but, if one really needs it then it's simply a matter of buying additional roller saddles and lifting the tender cradle off.  I no longer have any tender driven locos and, from previous experience, won't have any in the future either.  The "standard pack" I bought can handle up to 4 powered axles.  Any additional axles would require an additional roller at a cost of £10.

It is in fact, dual gauge - OO and O Gauge.  It can't handle N Gauge.

That looks like a Rolls Royce of rolling roads, there Peter.  Or should that be a Rolling Royce? Very smart!
Michael

That looks very nice, I've always considered getting one but always considered them to be so expensive for what they are and never actually bought one.
Depending on your thoughts I might be convinced with this one though!

Hi Peter,

Still lots of tender drives out there. Plus all those other models with "american" pickups (engine one side, tender the other side). Which is also found in Lima and Mainline diesels. And lots of tenders are wired for electrical pickup. My Bachmann City was wired for front bogie and tender pickup. 

Not everybody runs brand new stock

Nigel

Clearly a case of horses for courses Nigel.  :thumbs

Hi Peter,

Glad you are as pleased with yours as I am with mine.

Of course, with any new product someone will immediately find something to criticise, groundless or not.

Powering the tender support was considered during the design but  rejected on the fairly obvious reason that a motorised tender on  fixed supports would just drive the model off the other rollers as soon  as power is applied. Such an arrangement would not only be naughty, but foolish.


The answer to any of the situations where power to tenders are required is as simple as it would be with any rolling road with 4 cradles.

Two cradles for the loco, two for the tender*. Simple.

The unpowered front bogie and tender supports in this kit are an added, but not essential, feature. No one is forced to use the front bogie support and the tender support can be removed entirely, as Peter's photos and description demonstrate.

*Over many years I've operated successfully this way with my 3 sets of Bachrus cradles (0, 00 and N gauges, 4 cradles in each).

For those who wish to have every axle supported with powered connections they can add to the basic kit with additional cradles There's more than enough length on the stainless steel tracks to accomodate them.

For the rest of us, everything essential for a highly stable and fully functioning rolling road (except for the controller) is included in the standard kit.

As this unit is self-contained, there's also no need to cut off any  chairs to fit the cradles to track - I was brought up to understand that  chairs were there to hold and stabilise the rails. Who knew they were  disposable?

 I can vouch for the structural rigidity and resultant stability of this unit that even the otherwise excellent Bachrus sets cannot match. This is by design. The bulk of the cradle in encosed within the depth of the unit, not sitting loosely above. Less than the diameter of the rollers are outside this additional latteral support.

I now use this as my 'go to' rolling road on a daily basis. It will form the centre piece of my sound demo stand if I ever get to attend MR shows again.
 
Best regards,

Paul

[user=900]Paul Chetter[/user] wrote:

Hi Peter,


Of course, with any new product someone will immediately find something to criticise, groundless or not.

Powering the tender support was considered during the design but  rejected on the fairly obvious reason that a motorised tender on  fixed supports would just drive the model off the other rollers as soon  as power is applied. Such an arrangement would not only be naughty, but foolish.


The answer to any of the situations where power to tenders are required is as simple as it would be with any rolling road with 4 cradles.

Two cradles for the loco, two for the tender*. Simple.

 I cannot but admire the rationalization in Paul's contribution. Whether my comment is regarded as a criticism is up to the reader, but it's founded in a simple observation - not including a live, static support for a tender (or wired bogies) seems ill advised to say the least.


Seems pretty obvious to me that a powered tender would go on the rollers. As we say over here - Duh! To use this as a reason why it wasn't designed-in speaks volumes. " Buy more rollers! What seems to be lacking is the appreciation that a powered tender usually gets half it's pickup from the engine. While the engine can be supported on rollers, much more practical to have a stand that it simply slides on. Vice versa for a tender with pickups. Many tenders have DCC components inside, essentially making the engine and tender one connected unit. Good luck getting all that on rollers with just 2 hands.

Supporting an engine on 2 out of 3 axles is also highly questionable. Many locomotives have sprung axle(s) (and this applies to quite a few RTR models), a sure recipe for uneven running if a sprung axle is left dangling. 

As Paul well knows the Bachrus system offered a live tender support as well as live bogie supports, in addition to live rollers. And in what must be getting on for 9 years of use now I have yet to  have a locomotive fall off or a tender go walkabout.  And it will accommodate a 4-8-4 with all wheels supported, plus the tender. Plus it can be adjusted to EM or P4 gauge (yes, I know, a minority, but totally ignored by the PM model it seems). Pity the well thought out design elements of the Bachrus were not included. 

Nigel





Those of us with older stock will stick with what works.

Nigel,  I had answered the points you raised one at a time but decided to delete the reply and say quite simply, regarding this rolling road, you're talking a load of bullshit !!

I did a whole heap of very careful research on every rolling road I could find - that of course, excludes the Bachrus unit because it's no longer manufactured.  Some were reported as being great, others less so.  All had some reported drawbacks.

Armed with that knowledge, I knew roughly what I was looking for.  This one seemed to overcome all the reported niggles. 

That's why I bought it and, having tested it further, it does exactly what it says on the tin, and with ease.  To boot, it appears to be an extremely well made solid unit.

I would thoroughly recommend it to anyone who needs a rolling road.

Peter, it seems that new rolling road is designed more for small steam engines - won't take Beyer-Garrat 4-8-4+4-8-4   or the USA Big Boy 4-8-8-4   or Roco  Class 44   2-10-2 which has two of 4 tender axles driven as well as the 5 loco axles.

Not at all Sol - it's 500mm long so would accept any locomotive shorter than that - that's the only limiting factor from what I can see.


Naturally you'd have to buy more cradles depending on how many axles you want to support but there's plenty of room for them.  The basic unit can cater for anything up to and including a Pacific loco and tender.  All diesels less than 500mm long would fit.  Not sure how long a Big Boy or Beyer Garratt is but both are rather "fringe market" rather than main stream modelling.  Naturally this RR is designed with main stream modelling in mind