Linking colour light signals to point control

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#105691 (In Topic #5579)
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Help needed for a non electrician!

I am about to start the positioning and wiring of 3 aspect colour light and ground signals for the layout.  I plan to have three signal control panels (signal boxes) and will control the signals partly manually (in other words I will be the signalman). 

I will have some automation in that, for each signal, if the next one is set to red it will automatically be amber.

The complication now comes in at junctions where I want the signal feather to operate when the point is switched.  In addition any lines that are now blocked as a result of the point being switched must have red signals!!

I have worked out a wiring diagram using Cyril Freezers book on signalling. 

The issue that I have is that I need switches to operate the signals (either for feathers or to red) when points are switched.  I thought about putting additional SEEP point motors in parallel with those being switched and mounting these on the signal control panels.  I would then use the switch function on these motors.  However, this is pretty costly.

I am going to use an independent 12v supply for signal control and I am aware that relays can be used but have no idea how I can use them, what type I need and where I can buy them.  I assume that I need a relay that will switch when I apply 16v to the point motor coils.

I am using Eckon and Traintronics signals.

Any advice much appreciated.  Also I promise to post some photos when I have done it!!

 

Andrew
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#105694
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you are thinking along the right lines when you say use extra point motors for switching auxiliary contacts, and you are quite right the cost would be horrendous and you don't need the point operating bit.

My suggestion would be to use relay logic. Look at maplins or rapid electronics for 12V DC relays.
You can get relays with up to 4 sets of change over contacts so the scope for switching signals, route indicators etc. would be better, less bulky and cheaper than using the seeps.

No doubt you will get other responses to this thread, but with out seeing you layout or signalling plan I can't off any specific wiring advice.

Cheers for now
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Sol
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Andrew,, spend some time reading this site
http://brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical-2.htm#Signals & Lighting….
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H i Andrew im asuming that you are using seep motors with the built in switching ?? Im currently installing them on the Piccadilly project as I will be using the switching function to interlock all the signalling as well as panel indication. Its very straight forward to do all you need is to wire the relays coil through the seeps switch. You can use any voltage relay depending on what DC power supply you are using so eg. 5vdc, 12vdc, etc. I will be using 12vdc DPCO relays for my clients layout. The double pole switching will allow me to use one pole to switch the seep using one push button on the panel whilst the other pole to operate the signals. To switch the relay simply connect the +ve from the power supply to the common on the seeps switch and then conect a wire to one of the other switch terminals and then connect this to one of the relays coil terminals. Connect the other coil terminal to 0v and the relay will switch on/off when the point is operated. By connecting an led via a resistor to each of the seeps switch termanals the seep will switch the leds (panel indication) as well as the relay. Now if you wanted ease of operation you can use one push button to operate the point by wiring the seeps coils through one set of switching contacts on the relay. Sounds complicated but its actualy quite easy to do I can draw you a wiring diagram if you like ?? Actualy I may do a diargram anyway as I think a few more may be intrested?  ;-)   
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Actually

I have found that if you recommend using certain things like relays or other elecronic bits it is very helpfull if you go to somewhere like rapid online and post a link to the exact thing the person needs for example for the non electronic expert which most of us are there are literally thousands of relays on Rapid and you end up hitting a techno wall as you are really unsure what you should be ordering the same with things like diodes resistors etc.

Brian
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#105724
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I don't even know what you are all talking about and I don't know how Andrew has time to do this either :roll:
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You may not understand the details Chris, but I'm sure you can spot a commercial aspect to this - Keastieboy needs to buy things…

Stubby47's Bespoke Model Buildings All photos I post are ©Stu Hilton, but are free for use by anyone.
 
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hi Guys . This is about cheating.:oops:  Having installed points with motors om Blossom Hill ,I really can do without crawling underneath to fit peco switches to those point motors .I was however looking at micro tactile switches (Rapide electronics ) with a view to fitting these above the boards , in the hope that they could be triggered by the tie bar of existing points ,obviously fed via supply cables ,and wiring to then go to coloured light signals .Any comments on this most welcome.

reg
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Have you seen these:-

http://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/PtIndicr.htm#POINT INDICATOR-RELAY

Basically it is a unit which is wired in parallel with the switches you have already connected to your point motors, so you don't need to get under the layout, just as long as you can access the connections on your point motor switches.

These units remember the point positions even when power is removed, but I think you have to go through an initial set up by switching each point once.

The outputs vary according to the model you use. If you look at the page it shows you an example of driving LED signals either directly or through one of their MAS signalling modules.

Several on this forum are using Heathcote modules, including myself and I have not heard of any problems with them. I have not used this particular unit, but I am sure it would do the job well.

 

Last edit: by Geoff R

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Sol
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I use the Heathcote unit as I use side mounted motors & find then perfect but don't have them at the point if the run is loooong ( 20 feet)  as voltage drop can play a part if the wires are not quite large enough. Side mounted motors can get away with slightly thinner wires.
I have tried small microswitches to be activated via the tiebar & side mounted motors & sometimes they work & others no - each point is unique on how much tension in the spring & the moving blades.
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#105897
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I have used lever micro switches stuck on the point motor base, the centre pin slides over the lever and activates the switch
:thumbs:lol::cool:
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OK Sol and Geoff , don't want to pinch the thread ,but thanks for the input . I have so far about16 points (inc two sets of doubles that work as one) thats on about half the layout  without the fiddle yard . So its a bit pricey to fit the Heathcote units . What were the micro switches that you tried Sol?

reg
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#105908
Sol
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I will get a photo Sparky
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#105909
Sol
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Reg, two photos - different switches - painted to hide them







Now one from a website displaying the unit - no doubt Rapid in the UK have something similar

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?keywords=microswitch&keyform=KEYWORD&SUBMIT.x=15&SUBMIT.y=6

an example
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Thanks Sol. I was looking at what are called tactile switches . Those  tiny things in the back of garage door push buttons and similar. I believe they normally fit onto a pcb board.

reg
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#106015
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I think that my preference is to use latching relays that are activated by the pulse to the point motors.   I assume that if I activate one side of the motor the relay would switch one way and if I active the other side it will switch the other.  I also like the idea of the relay holding it's position when the power is turned off (hence the latching).

Does such a thing exist and where can I find a supply?
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Keastie boy . I would have thought such a device was available somewhere .  Someone on here will come up with where they are.:thumbs

reg
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Sol
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In Google, type in "latching relay"  and "latching relay circuits".
Atlas Model railroad also make a latching unit
Snap relay    https://secure.atlasrr.com/mod1/itemdesc.asp?ic=0200&eq=&Tp=
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#106025
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Heathcote also sell latching relays in handy banks of 4 mounted on boards. But if you are going to buy latching relays, why not use the Heathcote logic board that I suggested earlier? That only works out at £4 per point, and I don't think you will find latching relays for less.
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After looking at those Heathcote jobs again Geoff, i think i will do that.

reg
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