that is the question.....

Recently began acquiring some road transport for a later vehicular population of my layout… I'm very careful when buying off t'net that the description clearly states OO gauge or 1:76 scale… my latest purchase included these two artics (albeit from different eras) which show some serious size descrepancy… to my eyes anyway;-



Both brand new and the description on the sellers web site (the place in Widnes) states 1:76 scale… also both boxes include clear labelling '1:76 Scale'… the one at the back is a MAN 2008/09 plate curtain side by Oxford and the front a suffix B (1964) plate Foden tanker by English First Editions… Now while I accept they come from different eras and that vehicles in the 60's were generally smaller than present day offerings these look to me like a OO gauge and an N gauge - they're not, but thats what they look like.



I can't use both because of the size difference so unfortunately the MAN has to go back (shame really cause it's a limited edition and a beautiful model) but the Foden fits in (size wise) with my other EFE and BT models.



An EFE AEC tanker set amongst some Metcalfe OO factory buildings which to me looks about right…

Anyone else experienced this form of differential when items are clearly sold and labelled as being a particular scale or gauge???

Haven't got any vehicles yet and I've got to agree they look 'wrong' in the pictures Mike, but I'm not so sure they are.

Just searched on 'HGV Weights and Dimensions' and found the maximum articulated vehicle length is 16.5m, which I make to be about 215mm in scale, so maybe it's just the era.

:hmm


Ed

Hi Mike,

What do they scale to? I used to sit in the cab of a Foden most Saturdays in the 1960's (Saturday job with the local builder learning how to lay bricks and other sundry but useful skills),  they were certainly cramped (but capable of 80 mph).

Nigel

For OO it should be 1:76. Airfix cars, military and aircraft work out at 1:72 and HO is 1:89. As the Mann Truck (German) is probably meant for HO layouts then it would be at 1:89 (hence it being considerably smaller that the 1:76 required for OO). That is one of the problems in 4mm as a lot of companies say there products are suitable for HO and OO, which in this case they definitely are not..

Just had another thought on this. A lot of Truck Models are to a 1:50th scale (Corgi, Vangaurd etc.) This looks like the two shown are. The tanker is 1:76 the other is probably 1:50.

[user=1235]60019Bittern[/user] wrote:

For OO it should be 1:76. Airfix cars, military and aircraft work out at 1:72 and HO is 1:89. As the Mann Truck (German) is probably meant for HO layouts then it would be at 1:89 (hence it being considerably smaller that the 1:76 required for OO). That is one of the problems in 4mm as a lot of companies say there products are suitable for HO and OO, which in this case they definitely are not..

The joys of OO. What does it scale to versus the dimensions of the real thing is what I should have said.

Nigel

I  have had the same thing too,with cars tractors and the little people it does get annoying,
:thumbs;-):cool:
Owen

[user=1235]60019Bittern[/user] wrote:

For OO it should be 1:76. Airfix cars, military and aircraft work out at 1:72 and HO is 1:89. As the Mann Truck (German) is probably meant for HO layouts then it would be at 1:89 (hence it being considerably smaller that the 1:76 required for OO). That is one of the problems in 4mm as a lot of companies say there products are suitable for HO and OO, which in this case they definitely are not..

The German 'MAN'… a Mercedes, Audi, NSU conglomerate… is produced by Oxford Diecast as a limited edition replica of the lorry shown. It is limited to 2000 and forms part of a collectors set (this had an authenticity certificate listing it as number 11XX of 2000) and claims in the paperwork to be a detailed and accurate 1:76 scale representation… would serious collectors be interested if it were not? would we be interested in model trains if they were not to scale? It was also in a quality presentation or display case.

It is not 'considerably smaller' but in fact 'considerably larger' than I expected and dwarfs the other models (BT and EFE) also claimed by their makers to be 1:76 scale - niether manufacturer mentions 00 or model trains and no claim is made nor are they 'meant' for layouts… OO, HO or otherwise… but rather for collectors. Both presentation boxes claimed 1:76 scale… not HO or OO or anything else… only 1:76 scale, and were clearly labelled as such.

I have little experience with sizes of lorries… although a former HGV class 1 licence holder to cover emergencies with my former employer… I do not claim any expertise in this field.  A very good friend… a life long HGV 1 driver… on seeing and comparing the models expressed an opinion that the MAN was slightly over scale, and the others slightly under… so a 50/50 sitting on the fence political type opinion then?.  I do not know… but clearly, in this case, if we are talking of the exacting measurements representing 1:76 scale, something is clearly amiss, somewhere…..

I have a similar issue with the pair of semi-trailer units I own when placed alongside other vehicles all of which swear they are either 1:76 or OO scale (which should be the same thing) yet one dwarfs another.

Let's not overlook the massive increase in size and permitted mass for goods vehicles in more recent years which has allowed these monsters.  And let's recall that in the sixties and early seventies the typical lorry (even the semi-trailer ones) was much smaller, as indeed were many cars, vans and buses, compared with today.

Within my lifetime the maximum permitted dimension for a bus was 27 feet long by 7 feet 6 inches wide.  Now it's anything up to 15 metres, or about 49' 4", rigid (though most are between 10 and 12 metres) and longer for a bendybus with permitted width now 2.55 metres (8' 4½").  If you place a scale model London RT bus alongside a modern Enviro 400 the former looks too small.  In fact they are probably both correct.

So possibly with the lorries.  Both may indeed be correct.

Looking at the wheel diameters and indeed the wheelbases of both tractor units, they are of very similar size. The height of course is considerably taller, but in reality, modern large tractor units are massive pieces of kit housing sleeping accommodation and air conditioning units above and the engine underneath the cab.

Although the side by side comparison is striking, it may well be accurate and until someone does the simple research of looking up the prototype dimensions and dividing by 76, we're all just guessing.

Bill :)

 

I don't think there is a definitive answer to this one. Perhaps for layout use keeping 'Era' stuff together would go someway to keeping everything looking right with each other. Like our friend has said, things have changed over the years. What in the sixties we thought was a big lorry is almost a Dinky toy to the monsters that roam the roads today. And the 60's stuff was massive compared to the 30's stuff. To my ancient mind If it's steam era I'm modelling its little lorries. Later Diesel era then its monsters.

What in the sixties we thought was a big lorry is almost a Dinky toy to the monsters that roam the roads today. And the 60's stuff was massive compared to the 30's stuff.

Does anyone else remember the days when BR would deliver parcels?  They came around with their Scammell Scarab three-wheel prime mover which was about as big as a tricycle and towed a single-axle box-trailer which we though was huge but was probably only 20 feet long.  About the size of a small shipping container today two of which will fit onto most current trailers.

I remember standing at Liverpool Street Station, London (ex-GER) watching the Scammell Scarabs whizzing around like demented wasps.

Terry

yes there was a national rail depot near me  with scammels in and out all day,by the way isn`t 00 a guage not a scale like 1.76 this may be clouding the issue some what?
:thumbs;-):cool:
Owen

I too remember the Scammell Scarabs. :thumbs

Looking at the two lorries side by side Mike, there certainly seems to be something amiss.  They can't both be 1:76. 

Let's not get involved with "OO", "HO" or "N", none of which are "scale" but rather a "gauge" reference. "OO" Gauge happens to be to the "scale" of 4mm to the foot - again, a stupid situation where we have an imperial measurement reduced to a metric one ……………….

I hate to repeat myself, but:

My own and the opinions of others are irrelevant. It's a case of fact and simple mathematics!

I've already done my quota of sums today when working out my age for Mike's poll, so I must rest now and work on my G&T!

Cheers,

Bill :cheers

Be careful Bill - a recent survey suggests the average life expectancy in France has fallen for the first time in 50 years.  On average, you are likely to say "cheers" at 78.9……………:roll::roll:

I've worked out I still have time to fit 2 more point motors if I hurry ……………:cheers

A good heads up, thanks Peter and in that case, I'll stick to wire in tube point control and therefore live forever!

G&T was good, but I need to help the local economy with the main course now!

A bientôt,

Bill :cheers 

MAN offers a truck configurator online with all of the dimensions. You of course need to know what model you are after but some I saw were a 3600mm wheel base (axle to axle)for the prime mover with a 1475 front overhang  making it about 4.7cm long between the axles at 1:76 - how close to your model Mike.
Andrew