A general question to those who may know more than me regarding the general average speeds of goods trains hauled by diesel locos
two types
1. general goods of various wagon types - assuming all vans had vacuum braking of some type
2. bulk trains such as tankers

The reason I am asking is that I am attempting to set my locos under DCC with a maximum speed.

My DMU's  & main line passenger will be set to a maximum of 50 mph/ 80 kph

Shunting locos planned to be set to  20mph / 32 kph

Ron,

Because most of your rolling stock is not modern and could have been operated in the steam era I would operate your goods trains in the 'classes' they would have carried in the steam days. For example a long mineral train like a stone train with no vacuum braking connected to any of the wagons would travel at 25mph where as a train like a express freight or perisherables train (like fish) could run at 35mph or even a little faster depending on the braking system and how many were braked by vacuum. There is a lot of information on the steam goods trains speeds out there.

Regards Connor

Connor, thanks but as you know, I only have the one steam outline loco and  the D&S runs anything from older wagons ( retro fitted with better brakes) to more modern vans using diesels.

Hi Ron,

See the following :

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What was the max speed of partially fitted/unfitted freight trains? - UK Prototype Questions - RMweb

Nigel

Yeah, wot Connor sed!!

The speeds were dictated by the train type rather than the locomotive type. The majority of BR diesels generally had top service speeds of either 75mph or 90mph (there were quite a few exceptions and variations to this).

First generation DMUs were able to reach 70mph, and frequently did, at least on the ones I rode in, mainly in Yorkshire and Lancashire. This was interesting when sitting right behind the driver and looking through the glass screens, seeing the line ahead. On one trip from Leeds to York, we were on the slow lines of the four track section from Colton Junction (a 125mph junction) to York, doing 70mph flat out, with a goods train ahead in the distance. We could see double yellow signals and a feather for a ladder crossover to the fast lines. The line speed for the crossover points was 70mph, so we continued flat-chat over to the fast lines, overtook the goods train, then were switched back to the slow lines, albeit while slowing down for the approaches to York station.

BR diesels were quite often worked up to their maximum service speeds on main lines, but secondary lines depended more on the line speed limits, and all line limits depended on the train types.

Some examples of BR diesel speed limits were:

classes 20, 22, 24 and 26: 75mph

classes 15 and 16: 60mph
early class 30/31, class 73/0: 80mph

classes 25, 27, later 30/31, 35, 37, 40, 42/43 (warships), 44, 45, 46, 52, 73/1: 90mph

class 33: 85mph

class 47: 95mph

classes 50 and 55: 100mph

Most shunters (classes 01 to 13) had top speeds of around 15 - 20mph, with the exception of class 09, which could travel at up to 27mph (useful for trip working on the Southern Region where they had to slot into the busy electric commuter train timetables). One of our BRMA members was a shunter at Eastleigh, and he says you knew the difference between an 08 (20mph) and and 09 (27mph) when you were hanging on to the steps for grim life!

That's not a fully comprehensive list, but it does give some indication of what sort of characteristics you might program into the decoders for the types. Many of them were mixed traffic types, so unless you want to permanently allocate a locomotive to a particular train, you may want to compromise on the speed settings you choose.

Thanks Nigel & Jeff.
On the D&S, trains out of storage tracks & the local goods from terminal stations to the main station 99% of the time have the same loco.

I will set the locos used for shunting to 20mph;
ore,stone & tanker trains to 35mph, locals goods also to 35mph and remaining to 45mph.

My DMU's  & main line passenger will be set to a maximum of 50 mph.

Now the reason I am still using mph is that my track-side speedo works in MPH.

Hi Ron,

I fou nd this on another forum… might be helpful

The full classification of trains in the UK is…….

Class 0 - Light engine, 60mph max unless linespeed 90mph or more, in which case 75mph.

Class 1 - Express Passenger or Postal.

Class 2 - Local Passenger.

Class 3 - Parcels train.

Class 4 - Fully fitted Freight train permitted to run at up to 75mph.

Class 5 - Empty coaching stock.

Class 6 - Fully fitted Freight Train permitted to run at up to 60mph.

Class 7 - Fully fitted Freight Train permitted to run at up to 45mph.

Class 8 - Fully fitted Freight Train permitted to run at up to 35mph.

Class 9a - Partially fitted Freight Train permitted to run at up to 35mph.

Class 9b - Unfitted Freight Train permitted to run at up to 25mph.

Class 9 trains do not run any more, and with very few, if any vacuum  braked wagons around, class 8's may only exist in the history books now

Also  -

My recollection is that the 9' wheelbase variety (ie, all bar about 400)  were limited to 35mph, whereas 10' wheelbase wagons could run at 45  mph.

and

Trains with a mixture of fitted and       unfitted wagons travelled at speeds of up to a maximum of 45 mph, depending on       the ratio of fitted to unfitted wagons. Rolling stock considered suitable for       high speed running was usually marked in some way, from about 1938 the marking       XP was adopted by all companies and this marking remained in use under British       Railways.

The express goods speed of 45 mph (72 kph) was really the       upper safe limit for the traditional ten foot wheelbase four wheeled stock even       when fitted with vacuum brakes and oil ale boxes. At higher speeds the stock       proved unstable and tended to derail itself. Under British Railways a blanket       40 mph (64 kph) speed restriction was applied to all the older pattern four       wheeled vehicles in the early 1960's even when fitted with vacuum brakes.       

Trevor

thanks Trevor - that is helpful.

Jeff and Trevor have pretty much covered it.

Trevor's classification is a little more recent then some versions as it subdivides class 9 trains further.  

In the D&S era they would mostly have been just class 9.  None now exist on the "main line" railway though some perhaps do as demonstration freights on heritage lines.

The classification system has more recently still been revised again as there are no unbraked vehicles left in traffic and precious few vacuum braked ones.  Class 9 is now a "trip" working and speed is governed more often by the route than the consist.  Most freights in the UK now are class 3 ("liner" i.e. container / intermodal train), 4  or 6.

Shunting locos were limited to 20mph in most cases but with some smaller types (with correspondingly lower brake force) restricted to 15mph and the Southern's class 09 locos uprated and geared for 27mph.

Bulk and mixed-consist train were subject to the same speed limits which were always governed by which ever was the lower of maximum permissible line speed or the maximum speed permitted for class of train.  If fully fitted with vacuum brakes (and assuming all wagons had brakes in working order) then for the D&S period most trains would have been class 6 and able to run at up to 60mph.  

Certain wagon types were restricted to lower speeds such as the 45mph (class 7) of soda-ash wagons and the ICI limestone wagons used in the Peak District.  In Devon and Cornwall the china clay wagons which were fitted with tarpaulins and later with distinctive blue hoods were also 45mph wagons.

If you wish to set your locos at one consistent speed for freight work and you have your DMU trains set to 50mph then 45mph would be perfectly acceptable for freight and errs on the side of caution.  A class 6 train, for example, was not permitted above 45mph (and therefore ran as class 7) if just one wagon in the train was restricted to the lower speed nor if more than a fixed number (which varied according to train length) of wagons had their brakes isolated as that diminished the total brake force.

Just been running a Class 121 DMU around and using a speedo at 60mph  and it looks  TOO FAST so I am going to wait until this Wed night when the crew are here and ask them their thoughts

They were permitted at up to 70mph as Jeff says.  It's a question of scale.  We compress everything to fit our layouts and that may include speed.  While your scale speed might be correct in absolute terms it may appear too fast given the inevitable compression of geography into the layout.