Ratio 592 SR / BR 28 ton Bogie B

Hi All.  Here we go again, I have just purchased another plastic kit.
My previous attempts are awaiting completion, the Dapol/ Airfix? Engine Shed, got put aside because the base was level (Honest) but the top of the walls weren't , where the Wills Viaduct kit will look good when I figure out why the "Plastic Weld" didn't work as well as I would have liked? As some joints became separated (Authentic maybe?) but not on my watch?
This time, with the kit when built, being part of a train it has got to remain level and in one piece. I am certain that many of you have built either coach or wagon kits, would someone please tell me how to get this project off to a good start and enthuse me enough to complete it?:oops:
I really don't want to add this to my collection of misfits.
all the best. Kevin

Kevin, for joints needing strength, I still like to use gel glue, sometimes using Plastic Weld (or similar) as a "thinner" to get the gel to flow into the joint.

Something I have to force myself to do is to have patience and let the joint dry before continuing work.

The first and obvious thing is to review the parts.  I have a thing for brake gear and underframe detail.  Kits rarely include sufficient detail, or, if they do it is impossibly fragile.  I like to fabricate this from brass wire and other kit leftovers.  You can get accessory packs with this kind of detail from Mainly Trains (are they still going?) and Eileens Emporium (Bill Bedford).

Do you have the right wheels?

Do you have any prototype info.  Photos and drawings will supplement the instructions and have saved me several times.

What about transfers?

I think that perhaps the most important thing you can do is get the thing square.  Do not rush installation of the solebars.  Oh yes, do use brass bearings, my favourite are the waisted kind which look like a wizards hat. 

I've built lots of kits - some are documented in my workbench thread: http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=10043&forum_id=62&page=1 


John

Hi Kevin,

John (Brossard) is quite right - patience. And a true flat surface. I use a granite floor tile. Much less dangerous than a sheet of glass if dropped. Always do a dry fit to check for tight spots (and to make sure you are using the right parts).

Getting true right angles for the body shell is probably the hardest part (and seemingly the simplest, the ends usually have 45° bevels). The answer for me is Lego bricks on the inside, Blue Tack on the outside and a thin plastic cement (Testors Plastic Cement, which contains MEK and styrene monomer). Make a small corner with the Lego bricks, set the side and end in place with Blue Tack, remove the Lego and apply the cement. It's useful to have a right angle template on the granite (masking tape works well). I also have a corner jig that I rarely use. A couple of steel 2" engineers 90° precision squares will make sure you have 90° corners when cementing up. Check from the inside as the outside will have doors, windows, etc.

The Testors cement is very thin (compared to say Humbrol) and is is painted (sparingly) onto the joint from the inside, which is left to dry for 24 hours.   I normally use the sequence one side+ one end (do both at the same time), then join the 2 units together the next day.  You can get on with the underframe while the sides and ends set. The advantage of these thin cements is that if a bit gets on the outside it is so thin that it goes away when painted.

Add as much detail as you can to the ends and sides before making the body shell. It's much easier to work on a flat surface than a box (especially with window and door detailing). When you get to the roof you will have to decide whether you want the roof on permanently or have it detachable. Test fit the roof, they normally need a bit of fettling. I normally put the roof on after the body and roof are painted - saves masking.

One thing you can do is to practice with some small bits of styrene sheet to perfect the gluing technique.

Nigel

Hi John.  Thank you, as for Glue, Wheels, Bearings etc, being as this is my Very First carriage ( or any other item that runs on rails) I am at the mercy of everyone. My idea was to look for a suitable (looking pair of bogies) wheels, bearings, all ready to run. And then once the Bogie B was running I could sit quietly? and have a "Kit Bash".
I never even gave the under frame much consideration , although I was looking at Roxey Mouldings, especially the Handrails, being so fiddly. I don't even want to think about Paint or Transfers just yet? just hoping that it gets that far.   all the best. Kevin

Actually Kevin, you should think about paint because some things are easier to paint at various stages of the build.  I have a painting plan in my head when I do a kit.

My preferred paint is acrylic.  Tamiya is good and Humbrol do a range now - not tried that though.  At least being in the UK, means you have an easier time getting prototype colours than I do.

My policy is to prime before painting, this gives a nice uniform undercoat and something for the final colour to key to.

- Grey for cold colours like green or blue.

- Red oxide for warmer colours like brown or red.

- A good idea to use white as an undercoat if the final colour is cream or yellow.

I use the primer from auto parts places - I think you have Halfords.

I could rattle on but don't want to overwhelm.

…Erm, you haven't told us what the kit is.  Maybe somebody already did it.:hmm

John

Hi Nigel.   Thank you,  my " Flat Surface" is the machined base of an Electric Drill Stand, I must admit that I only have one 4 inch engineers square, which I purchased for my first job( through the company stores)
Way back in 1962, and that has been tucked away ever since 1965, when I decided to move into transport .
I read Gary's (Sydney) thread about Lego, but I wasn't sure of the benefit or how to use them? For the Dapol/Airfix engine shed, I used pairs of Magnetic Angles which I think come from York. I did look for some of Testors spray paints, to create a "Rusty" effect on a Plate Girder bridge (which is very similar to my kit ).that I had seen on YouTube but I never even gave them a thought . The plastic panels stayed stuck together, so I must have got it correct. all the best Kevin

The SR used a standard 8' bogie on all steam hauled passenger stock, (in N gauge they are available from the N gauge society) Hornby do Maunsell corridor coaches which should have them, it may be worth trawling ebay for spares or repair lots that you could salvage the bogies from.

[user=565]Brossard[/user] wrote:

I use the primer from auto parts places - I think you have Halfords.

I could rattle on but don't want to overwhelm.

…Erm, you haven't told us what the kit is.  Maybe somebody already did it.:hmm

John

Hi Kevin,

Be aware that most car paint primer is intended to level scratches and imperfections. As such it will do a great job of filling in the gaps between wooden planks in model railway stock, reduce sharp rivet detail to miniature mole hills and door handles to blobs.  To minimize this you need a deft hand and very thin light coats (which the aerosol can is not intended to do), or go for a model primer made by the likes of Testor in a rattle can (which is intended to give light coats using a smaller nozzle, and has finer pigment). The only exception is the roof, which generally has little if any detail. Dark grey car primer works a treat there.

John is right, it's better to spray the parts flat before assembly, no risk of runs. Three thin coats are better than one thick coat. If you can find Vallejo acrylics and a green to match they will go on with a fine sable brush and with a bit of care look better than a spray job. The prototype was hand painted, why not the model? Finish off with a gloss finish for the decals, when they have set lock in with a matt finish.

Nigel



Save

Hi John.   Under Kit Bashing, I wrote "Ratio SR/BR 28 ton Bogie B Passenger Van" (592). This is a strong contender for the "Must Run" on layouts based in Southern England. And as a "Southerner"Hooray, I had been looking for a Hornby RTR version. As for Halfords? I have read about their Spray Can Primer for plastic(Grey). I do remember making Airfix model planes, and forgetting to paint the pilot, which reminds me of "No Finger Prints" when fingers were covered in plastic cement?
all the best Kevin

[user=1397]Dorsetmike[/user] wrote:

The SR used a standard 8' bogie on all steam hauled passenger stock, (in N gauge they are available from the N gauge society) Hornby do Maunsell corridor coaches which should have them, it may be worth trawling ebay for spares or repair lots that you could salvage the bogies from.

 Hi Mike.
I had been chatting to Kevin via PM as well as in his topics, and suggested the Bachmann Bulleid bogies, which are more readily available as spares than Hornby's.

Kevin: knowing the Ratio Bogie B kit from ages ago, I described it as "unnecessarily complicated" - things like the brass door hinges really could have been moulded onto the plastic doors just as sharply as having separate bits, IMHO. When you come to stick the brass bits to the plastic, a good "superglue" (cyano-acrylate) should do the job. If you use a slow-setting one, or a gel, that will give you time to adjust the positions before the glue sets solid.

Hi Jeff.   I was looking at the Bogie B instruction sheet today, and too right
"it ain't half complicated". Then I was searching for the "Brass Bearings"
when I couldn't identify them in a bag of bits? I phoned up Ratio, the lady on the phone said" for your first kit, you certainly have picked a complicated one. As I had already written to Ratio, she said that she
"Had already passed my Bogie enquiry on to Peco" and someone will write to me?   all the best. Kevin

[user=321]SRman[/user] wrote:

[user=1397]Dorsetmike[/user] wrote:

The SR used a standard 8' bogie on all steam hauled passenger stock, (in N gauge they are available from the N gauge society) Hornby do Maunsell corridor coaches which should have them, it may be worth trawling ebay for spares or repair lots that you could salvage the bogies from.

When you come to stick the brass bits to the plastic, a good "superglue" (cyano-acrylate) should do the job. If you use a slow-setting one, or a gel, that will give you time to adjust the positions before the glue sets solid.

Just make sure the CA is plastic compatible, otherwise it will bloom through the paint. CA (all varieties) dissolves the plastic used in model kits. Use sparingly and never directly from the bottle. The end of a thin paperclip or a short piece of 20 thou' brass wire works well. Drop of CA on a small square of kitchen aluminum foil, dip the tip of the wire in to have a very small drop on the end. The CA drop on the foil stays workable for 10 minutes or so.

I use the thin stuff (5 second setting), position the bit of brass with tweezers and apply a very small amount to the side. Capillary action wicks it underneath. Hold for 5 seconds. Thick (15 second slow setting) CA needs to be put on the back of whatever needs to be glued on, mess-up the position and it's a mess.  A very small drop on the back of the item is all that's needed (which is not easy given it's viscosity).

All this needs fine tweezers and a magnifying lens/light. Tape the side being worked on to the work surface (double sided tape works well and doesn't leave any adhesive residue on the outside).

Nigel

Never noticed CA dissolving plastic, but you're the chemist Nigel, so I defer.  I'll use styrene glue (gel or liquid) for plastic to plastic and often use contact (impact) cement for dissimilar materials.

I use the Zap a Gap medium stuff (green label).  For me it works a treat.  I tried the thick stuff once but it took forever to leave the bottle.

Agree about applying the CA glue with a piece of wire.  I have a plethora of those little baggies that the trade uses for fiddly bits.  Never throw anything away.

As for bogies, will Roxey not sell them?

STILL not clear on the kit we are talking about - the Ratio van?

John

Hi John, Nigel, and Jeff.  I thank all of you for your input. I have been doing some thinking, and it might be a good idea to build a good SR/BR van kit first. That way I can get a better idea of what "I am letting myself in for first, practice being the watchword ".  all the best. Kevin
PS Have you any suitable kit ideas, for me to get to grips with?

There are a few here:

http://www.parksidedundas.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_SOUTHERN_RAILWAY.html

Parky Dundas are very good.  Ask about transfers, they seem to be in cahoots with Modelmaster.

A load more here:

http://www.cambrianmodels.co.uk/srwagons.html

I don't see anything Southern from Ratio other the van we were talking about.

There could be more.

John

I agree with John's suggestions: Parkside and Cambrian do some nice easy kits to get to grips with first (avoid the Cambrian Southern bogie ballast hoppers as first kits, though; they are a little fiddly).

Ratio used to offer a Southern 12T van, a bogie ore wagon (LMS?) and a bogie bolster wagon, but none are as easy to make as the ones mentioned above.

I would suggest starting with a nice simple 4-wheel open wagon or van with simple brakes (you won't even have to worry about pre-painting any bits), then progress to slightly more complex items, such as the LNER or Southern CCT/PMV vans from Parkside.

Make sure you add some weight to them too - with vans it is easy to glue a bit of lead in before fixing the roof. I use a contact cement for this as it does melt the surface of the plastic a little and gives a good grip on the lead so it doesn't let go after everything is sealed in. I use real lead from roof flashing sheets (I was given some many decades ago and it is now nearly used up), but other suitable materials are available.

Finally, make sure you wash your hands thoroughly after handling any of the material like lead and paints, glues and solvents - take precautions not to inhale or ingest any of them. We want you around for a long time to come!! :)


Edit: Cambridge Custom Transfers (John Isherwood) does a whole heap of transfers linked very closely with the Cambrian Kit range.

I have a pair of the LMS bogie wagons Jeff.  I think there were only the two built anyway.

Completely agree about a 4 wheeled open for a first attempt. 

I use a lot of contact cement for securing weights.  The thing I've noticed is the main brand here changed its' formulation a few years back and now it doesn't work so well.  I sometimes get wagons with the weights rattling about after glue failure.

My hobby shop has self adhesive weights.  I also have a box full of bits of lead and other odds and ends for weight.  In days gone by, people used coins I think but with the change to zinc, the effectiveness has gone down.

John

Hi Kevin,

Most of the PD kits are OK (not the Beetles). Some of the Dapol kits are also OK (not the engine shed). Bit less complicated compared to PD or Cambrian.

Weights. I use SS nuts (1/4"-1/2") over each bogie or axle, held in place with a dab bathroom/kitchen clear silicon sealant. Doesn't attack the plastiic and the weights will simply peel off if necessary. Plastic cement has two disadvantages - it keeps attacking the plastic, and a large blob will out-gas for months, especially if you put the roof on. You risk softening the floor as well.

Nigel

Oh, what's wrong with the Beetle Nigel.  I made one:




The door bangers are a bit ahoo - I should have done them in brass.  Otherwise, I thought the kit was fine.  Unless there's some glaring inaccuracy.  I got the transfers from Modelmaster.  Under that paint is car primer.

Anyway Kevin, I was having a rummage today and found that I have a bunch of Slaters wagon kits.  I wouldn't try to get these from Coopercraft - the owner has made a right mess of the business.  I've had these for yonks - they're branded C&L who had the range before Coopercraft.

So, I was thinking we could do a team build, even though the kit you get won't be the same as mine, the construction principles are going to be much of a muchness.  I haven't built a kit for a while - it will make a change.  Perhaps others might even take part.

Someone on another forum had the bright idea to do a team build a while back.  I think in hindsight the choice of kit was a bit too advanced for the people who signed up.  It was a Bill Bedford GWR ballast wagon - etched brass.  There was a lot of umming and ahhing about wheels and folk were unsure about soldering.  I got on with it and had a pair built, painted and completed well ahead of anyone else.  It all kind of petered out and I doubt any of the other kits were built properly.  I suspect the team got a bit mad at me even though I documented my build at every step.  Most seemed to think we'd build the thing together - I haven't the patience for that.

John

As an idea, here's a very simple one I did last year: a Cambrian Kits LSWR open wagon, with brakes on one side only. Cambrian do provide optional parts for four wheel brakes and different door flaps. The most complex assembly here was the tarpaulin bar, and even that can be left off.








The LBSC wagon with the curved ends in the same pics (also a Cambrian Kit) is only very slightly more complicated to build, mainly due to the brake gear and the need to use the tarpaulin bar and swivels, which are a little more delicate. Both kits can be built in a few hours, followed by easy painting.