SR Push Pull Set

Hi All.  I have among my Hornby Collection . A two coach Push Pull Set , in green, like a lot of other sets. But during the period, that the Set was running,under BR it was “ Crimson Livery “ according to a YouTube video. Hornby matched the set with an M7 Loco , where the same video has it running with an H Class Loco ,Although at the time that the set was released the H Class Loco wasn’t available as a model.
My questions are has anyone purchased an H Class Loco , and is it any better than the M7? Or value for money? As my M7 is in LSWR Livery and not BR black.   Best wishes. Kevin

We have both classes on the layout. Even though the H class is newer, the M7 is probably the better runner (probably because of the slightly longer wheelbase). Both value for money although the M7 is getting a bit pricey. The push-pull set would have run with both classes just depending on what area of the Southern region as the M7s were mainly west whereas the H was east.
Hope this helps

Regards Connor

Hi Connor  Thank you for your reply. My M7 has/ had a problem with the leading tension lock coupling , until I removed the hook. It is just as well it only pulls two coaches, as more than that it struggles. Being LSWR Livery it is a pity that Hornby didn’t build coaches to match. That is why I began this thread “Green” not “ Crimson” , “LSWR notBR”, I have a right confusing of liveries on my small layout. Again I have been watching YouTube videos, this time on the H Class , not very promising , to say the least.  Best wishes. Kevin

I have one M7 permanently allocated to pull-push duties, so it has a Kadee coupling at the bunker end and no coupling at the smokebox end; instead I have added all the pipes and buffer beam fittings at the front.

Neither the M7 nor the newer H are brilliant for pulling power. Both will generally pull better up gradients with the bunker leading up the hill. Reason? Weight transfer onto the driving wheels. Both designs suffer from poor balance, with the centre of balance being very close to the trailing driving axle.

With the M7, what Hornby should have done is put the decoder socket in the bunker and added extra weight at the front where the socket is actually located. Modellers with a little bit of experience can replace the weights in the side tanks with real lead (wash hands thoroughly after handling the lead, and don't eat anything while handling it!).

The H is a little more difficult as there is nowhere to add extra weight at the front end, with the motor and gearbox block taking up all of the available space right up to the back of the smokebox door. I have squeezed a very small amount of lead in there but not enough to make a difference - it can still teeter over the rear driving axle if tipped backwards a little. Further experiments will follow eventually.

Hi Jeff. Thank you.  The lead that you used for the extra weight , was that “ Liquid Lead “ ? I have added weight to various wagons, with it when fitting Kadees , which was easy, I created a box in the underframe with styrene., but if “Liquid Lead “ will suffice? and I can contain it , in a similar way? within the tanks , Isn’t there screws under the “Filler Caps” in the tanks? Which you will know if you have used it, is runs everywhere just like water, Best wishes.   Kevin

You say your set is in green livery. Is this one of the Hornby sets consisting of two Maunsell coaches? These were converted in 1959 from coaches made surplus by the first phase of the Kent Coast electrification, and replaced many vintage sets that were life-expired. They didn't last long, all being withdrawn by 1964 due to replacement by DEMUs and by closure of branch lines. The Hawkhurst branch went in 1961, for example.

I have two Hornby M7s, one push-pull fitted and one not. Both have Lenz Standard+ decoders located in place of the tender weight, and hard-wired. One is permanently coupled to a Maunsell push-pull set with Roco couplings throughout, and the other does fairly light duties. It currently has a 3-car Bachmann Bulleid set. No problems with haulage at all. 

I also have a recently-acquired H class with Maunsell push-pull set. It list less sure-footed than the M7s and I have one or two places where some track fixing is needed, although other locos have no problem at all. It has no issue with its 2-coach set.  For DCC it has a Lenz silver mini wired to a spare 8-pin plug, and was a very tight fit even for a decoder this small!  It basically sits on top of the motor in place of the large capacitor which has been removed. 

Hi Robert. Thank you for your reply. Yes that is the set , in green, but, the video was filmed in 1958 admittedly within the timescale , but it shows that the Nationalisation of Railway Livery didn’t happen overnight. And almost any loco could have run anywhere within reason the LSWR Loco ( in National Railway Museum Livery) could have run with “Life expired coaches” in a different area.I wasn’t that confident about hard wiring my M 7 at the time, so I just fitted the Decoder In the Ready socket,    Best wishes. Kevin.  

For pull-push duties (Southern terminology rather than the more usual push-pull!), the M7 is fine as it is, but in real life they also did empty stock movements, and in earlier days, full suburban trains, consisting of 11 or more coaches. 

I may yet bite the bullet and give my other M7s the full treatment: hard-wire the decoder so it goes at the rear, add as much weight into the void left by vacating the decoder location at the front, replace the weights in the side tanks, etc.

I usually use sheet lead, but there is no reason why you can't use liquid lead, as long as you can contain it.

Hi Jeff. Thank you. I have read that the M7 could cope with such trains , out of Waterloo. Whether it has been tried with the Hornby M7 or not I don’t know, Southern Railway or BR(S) Layouts  in most Exhibitions seem rare, most Modellers go for the LNER, GWR, etc. I shall have to look out for “ Graham Muz” at the next exhibition that I attend,if he is available and he is willing to talk about the M7, I will try to get an opinion . As my layout is not on public display I will probably “grin and bear it” with the M7.  Best wishes. Kevin

I remember trainspotting at Waterloo in the late 50s and early 60s. Watching an M7 start a 12-coach ECS on greasy rails was a sight to behold!

I doubt Hornby's model could handle such a load.

Hi Robert    A sight to behold? Was that Wheelslip? or what. At that time, I am sad to say, I was more into road vehicles. One holiday that I remember , when I was eleven we went to Seaton, after a ramble to Beer, we caught the train back to Seaton .    Best wishes. Kevin

Yes - furious wheel slip.  Often wondered at times whether it could start the train at all, and usually needed a push from the train engine at the other end. 

Hi Robert.   My only experience of wheelslip has been in wet weather or on the “ wrong type of leaves “ . But for a different reason? I once saw an Eastern Region EMU heading to London with one of the units with glowing red wheels. Brakes? Maybe hanging on?   Best wishes. Kevin

Melbourne's suburban system has gradients up to 1 in 27, and in wet slippery conditions, our EMUs quite frequently exhibit wheel slip and slide. I have been on board EMUs that have slid through station stops to end up one or two coaches further than they should be, past the end of the platforms. Before the level crossing replacements, city bound trains accelerating from Laburnum station (next one from my station at Blackburn) used to encounter not only a steep uphill gradient but a sharpish curve as well, resulting in much slipping and shuddering before any speed could be achieved. 

Hi Jeff.  Thank you . That sounds familiar , similar events occur on LU. When we had “D stock” training the instructors told us how good the “Seven Step Relay” was, but it was a bu??er to get a “ handle” on, one instructor was fond of a driving trip , on his way home and I let him have a go , but he nearly left West Ham Station behind. Best wishes. Kevin

Kevin,


With regard to liveries and Southern Region Push Pull Sets may I make the following observations?

The Hornby Set is a Southern Region conversion of Maunsell coaches and carried out in the late 1950s. These sets were all painted green as presented by the Hornby product.

Is this is the video you refer to in an earlier post?

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If so, the crimson push pull you refer to is not what Hornby have presented. The set in the video is a Southern Railway conversion of LSWR Ironclad coaches. During the 1950s these were all painted vermilion, to give the official name to the colour.
Other rebuilds of pre grouping stock to push pull sets were also painted in vermilion although as seen in the short video some survived in their original green.


I hope this assists you in sorting out the trains on your layout.

Hi Mark.  Thank you for your reply. An interesting video, but not the one that I was referring to. The video in question had a “Voice Over”, and included Steam Locos on Mainline trains as well. I have had a search for that video, but , cannot  find it or remember the title.  Best wishes. Kevin

Sorry to butt in, but thought you might be interested in a video of one of my N gauge Dapol M7s having no problems with 9 Maunsells & 2 bogie vans, it'll do the same bunker first. 4'x2' test track

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s23ryqnij2whacj/M7%2B11fwds.mp4?dl=0

Hi Mike.  Thank you for your reply. Think nothing of it, I hijack threads al the time, but at least you kept on the thread..Maybe there is something special or different about N gauge from Double O???  Best wishes. Kevin

Hi Mark.    I have found the video in question . “ Ride Kent’s Hawkhurst Branch in 1958 “ Best wishes. Kevin