M7 LSWR livery and which carriages

Hi All.   I am now the proud owner of a Hornby M7 in LSWR livery, hoping to ugrade my layout? to an earlier period (than, Southern or BR(S) ) at certain times, as the nostalgia mood takes me, but, I have hit a snag(not a sausage) It has been suggested by an enthusiast that my Hornby M7 " will not pull the skin off a rice pudding" , meaning that it will not pull a load, and there is another problem:???: Which carriages would be suitable, and which manufacturer can supply.suitable carriages in LSWR livery. Even if I go for Kit building? Who makes the Carriages?
Another thing it has been suggested that the problem with the loco is weight distribution which causes the wheels to lose tractive effort or traction, as you would put it ?:oops: Even if I run my M7 as a goods train ?
there are not many suitable wagons available . Help, please advise with printable answers. all the best. Kevin


Update,  after my comments on the Hornby M7,  based on hearsay I got around to putting my M7 through its "paces" so to speak, very slowly, almost a crawl because I read one thread about the motor overheating? and that is not for me. Good news it can move four Hornby carriages, I did this on DC with the wires clipped on the rails, until that is I investigate the "Space issue" as far as the fitting of a decoder goes. So that seems  I will not be sending the M7 to Paul for a sound decoder to be fitted .Because in another thread that I read "on needs to remove one of the weights to fit the decoder in the tank space, now that would really cause a loss of traction.
I think it pays to read and watch all the reviews. all the best. Kevin

I looked up a picture of this loco - beautiful!  My friend has one and it is really top notch.  How many coaches do you want to pull anyway?  As it's a branchline loco, it would not look out of place to be pulling two - compo and brake 3rd.

You've done the same as another friend of mine who bought the pre grouping version of the T9 for which coaches do not exist.  I note that Hornby do have an ex LSWR coach in SR livery.

He went out and bought the Roxey kits of a rake and then I stupidly put my hand up to make them for him.  It took me ages but I got them done.  LSWR coaches do look very good:

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=10043&forum_id=62&page=4

Also check this:

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1520.html

In hindsight it would have been simpler for him to sell the LSWR T9 and buy a SR version.

I wish the manufacturers would plan this stuff better and at least have something for these beautiful pre-grouping locos to pull.

John


 

Hi John.  Thank you for your reply. The truth of the matter is, I bought it from a club member for a reasonable price. It is true, two carriages would be most likely, it's that I didn't think much about the livery, it is a model of the Loco 245 in the National Railway Museum and fair handsome it is.
I have looking through the small ads. and online:???: And as you say "I wish that manufacturers would think these things through."
I guess that I will have to see of I can find a suitable Shut and Cut model or models at swap meets.   all the best. Kevin

Hi John.  I have just read your thread on the paint job for LSWR coaching stock. You did a very good job there. I would haven't an idea what I was looking for, the LSWR seemed to be really old fashioned ? Silly me I should have realised, but , that period looks even more attractive to model
Hansom cabs and all , gas lighting, smog brilliant all the best. Kevin

I dunno, I suppose you and I must seem old fashioned to many.

As you will have noticed, it's the livery that's the challenge.  Building the coach kits was relatively straightforward.  Finishing is where the rubber meets the road and can ruin the job.  I'd much rather have RTR.

Still, you never know, you might find some well built coaches with the right livery somewhere…and pigs might fly :roll:.

If you want an M7 hauled passenger train, put this one in a display case and get a SR liveried loco to go with the very nice Hornby pull push set.  I think you'll have much less stress.

Like this:  Hornby UK - Model Railways, Train Sets, Locomotives & Accessories

John

I have never owned a Hornby M7 but before Hornby re-introduced their model I had built examples from Finecast Kits.
In order to get them running correctly I have always had to adjust the springing of the bogie so that both drivers are in contact with the track when running. This is a matter of trial and error and experimentation. This is something you may have to consider with the Hornby version. You may have to consider adding a little weight to boot. Weight was never a problem with a white metal kit. Do have fun!
The only current supplier for carriages of the period you wish to model are Roxey Mouldings. If you do go down this route then you will find the proprietor David Hammersley the most congenial of gentlemen and very helpful.
When checking out his website do check out Southwark Bridge Models which are now produced by David. Using these kits you can build up sets of 4 x 6 wheel vehicles that were known as block sets. These are most appropriate to run behind an M7 in LSWR days. The good news is that the kits go together very well. Their designer the late Ivan Smith prided himself on the fact that his kits were correct and went together with ease.
Southwark Bridge Model Carriage & Wagon Kits 4mm SCALE / 00 GAUGE

As a reference work none is finer than the series by Gordon Weddel and The South Western Circle is worth its weight as an enthusiast society.

Home Page

Hi john.   Yet more info, Roxey do a "4C 28 LSWR 30ft 6W Full Brake,".
Whatever use that is? by itself. I would like to try that, but as I said, I do have a load of kits in the pipeline, I had better do some of the kits I have already, before I buy anymore. As for buying another M7, is concerned I already have a Hornby Push Pull set and I purchased an O2 from Kernow model rail centre to work it on the branch. all the best   Kevin

That would be this I believe:



The 6 wheeled suspension design in the kit is rubbish.  I redesigned it work better.  I would do it differently today.

If you get one, there are some build pictures in my workbench thread.

Phoenix paints do the right colours.  http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/precision-paints/railway-colours/colours-for-the-pre-grouping-companies-pre-1923/london-south-western-railway.html

I made lining transfers using Powerpoint, I'd be happy to email the file to you.

You will need the HMRS Pressfix sheet.

A lot of work though.

John

Correction, the picture above is of the 4C7, but looking at the small sketch on the site it looks the same.  Even the diagram # is the same.


 

[user=565]Brossard[/user] wrote:

I dunno, I suppose you and I must seem old fashioned to many.

As you will have noticed, it's the livery that's the challenge.  Building the coach kits was relatively straightforward.  Finishing is where the rubber meets the road and can ruin the job.  I'd much rather have RTR.

Still, you never know, you might find some well built coaches with the right livery somewhere…and pigs might fly :roll:.

If you want an M7 hauled passenger train, put this one in a display case and get a SR liveried loco to go with the very nice Hornby pull push set.  I think you'll have much less stress.

Like this:  http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/br-pull-push-coach-pack-r4534c.html

John

 Hi John.
If it is  reasonably accurate combination anyone is after, you would need a BR liveried M7 to go with the Maunsell p-p coach pack - they were only converted to p-p working in the late 1950s and as such, were never in SR liveries.

Currently there are no RTR passenger coaches on the market suitable for pre-grouping liveries, although Bachmann will be producing their 'birdcage' coaches in SECR livery.

The Hornby ex-LSWR coaches are modelled as modified during Southern Railway days (1930s), where the bodies were lengthened and placed on different underframes.

The other RTR stock under way is the Kernow Model Railways LSWR 'gate' stock, although even with that stock, I'm not aware of any pre-grouping liveries being made available (or whether they were modified, making them unsuitable for the earlier liveries).

[user=565]Brossard[/user] wrote:

That would be this I believe:



The 6 wheeled suspension design in the kit is rubbish.  I redesigned it work better.  I would do it differently today.

If you get one, there are some build pictures in my workbench thread.

Phoenix paints do the right colours.  http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/precision-paints/railway-colours/colours-for-the-pre-grouping-companies-pre-1923/london-south-western-railway.html

I made lining transfers using Powerpoint, I'd be happy to email the file to you.

You will need the HMRS Pressfix sheet.

A lot of work though.

John

Correction, the picture above is of the 4C7, but looking at the small sketch on the site it looks the same.  Even the diagram # is the same.


 

 
I think I might have one of these to build, myself! I'm sure I have a similar kit buried on my shelves; I am also sure it has plastic sides, making it one of the earlier kits produced. Like the brass Roxey LSWR coaches I have, it may be a considerable while before I attempt to build any of them!

Every time I see pictures of models like yours, I get a rush of enthusiasm that says go and start building the kits. Then I look at the kits and put them back in the "too hard" basket. :D Yours looks really nice. 

:cheers

Yes I made the point earlier about manufacturers dropping the ball wrt pre group liveried coaches.  It seems pointless to go to the trouble of producing these lovely pre-group locos only to have nothing for them to pull.  Then again, I don't think there are all that many pre-group layouts anyway.  I imagine that many owners of pre-group locos pretend that they are preserved.

Good that there are some pre-group diagrams are being produced.

You can add the pull-push thingy on the smokebox with a bit of plastic tube, wire, a decent photo and cleverness.

I wonder if there's much of a market for pre-grouping these days.  I read somewhere (I'm always doing that) that the peak of the bell curve for modelling interest tends to be 40 years ago, and this is always moving to the right.  By that rationale, most layouts should be based on 1986 BR.

John

As I said I stupidly raised my hand to build these thinking they'd be interesting.  That they were but my interest waxed and waned and I finally had to force myself to get them done for the deadline.  I should have told him to buy the SR liveried T9 :roll: and Hornby coaches.

I quite like brass and soldered joints are very strong.  At least brass sides are nearly prototypical thickness, plastic is always too thick and getting glazing to fit flush is an issue.

Still, it's another box that I can tick.

Being in Oz, you must have the same problem as me getting paint.

John

Yes, paint is a problem. I was lucky enough to land some SECR and LSWR colours just before the rules were changed.

Even now, where some clarifications have been made regarding posting acrylics or small, sealed qualntities, I'm afraid most of the shops and paint manufacturers still don't want to risk sending anything to Oz (or the US/Canada, for that matter).

Hi Jeff.  Thank you for your reply. Having read it, I went to look for suitable manufacturers, Humbrol and Phoenix seem likely candidates, I don't know if you ever had a preference? before import restrictions came into force .
I have been looking at Roxey mouldings offerings, but , I should do a test
Run with my M7( I suspect it has been well run in considering thst I got it from a club member ) I have a lot of Hornby stock to test it with, but, I had better not over do it , maybe I could try some wagons first and then the carriages one first adding accordingly, bearing in mind " That it will not pull the skin off a rice pudding suggestion " Please post your comments.
all the best. Kevin

Hi Mark                     Have you heard anything about the "Suggested light pulling power ofthe Hornby M7??"I intend giving mine a test run, at the moment all I know is that it works, and there are pick ups on all 8 wheels. That is quite an achievement for Hornby, but its no good if it don't pull coaches, I would like to make up (I don't know about painting) a Roxey mouldings kit. But I think building a 6 Coach formation might do for me??. But if you could advise on a shorter suitable formation I would be obliged.                           all the best Kevin

As someone else posted (I can't remember which forum it was on!), the M7s do benefit from some careful tweaking of the contacts on the bogie to reduce drag, and also ensuring the bogie is not taking too much weight off the drivers.

I am on record as saying that Hornby really should have put the decoder socket at the back (possibly in the bunker), and crammed more weight into the front end. I haven't tried this idea yet, but I want to replace the weights in the side tanks with real lead, which should put more weight over the driving wheels where it is needed. 

My own M7s (four of them: two BR black and two LSWR) can all manage four coaches with no gradients thrown in, but even so, they are on the point of slipping.
As I said to you in one of our PMs, the M7s were originally suburban passenger engines and could be seen pulling quite lengthy rakes of wooden coaches - I counted 11 in one photo. A few were also used in much later years as station pilots and could be found hauling longish rakes of empty coaching stock into the likes of Waterloo.

Get the balance wrong on the Hornby model (like pulling one of the weights out to put a decoder!), and it would have difficulty with the proverbial rice pudding skins! I have used TCS DP2X-UK decoders in all of mine - they just squeeze in.

Hi Jeff.  Thank you, as I have stated on other threads I used to mould my own lead weights for Sea Fishing, but I wouldn't know how to create a mould for Loco weights, and wouldn't want to now. Dangerous pastime .
But the modeller who said about the "rice pudding skin" suggested that removing a washer? from the bogie would do the trick , but that's not for me either. Once I get round to it I have to put a DCC decoder in ( 8 pin?)
   all the best. Kevin

Yes, Kevin, they are 8-pin. As I wrote earlier, I used TCS DP2X-UK decoders in mine, but DCC Concepts also do a nice, even smaller direct plug-in decoder - I have two of these to try out but haven't yet used them.

If you use a decoder with a wired harness, Hornby recommend taking the weight out of one of the side tanks; this is definitely to be avoided if at all possible for all of the reasons we have discussed about haulage power and balance.

Hi Jeff. Thank you, my M7 is DCC ready so I am hoping that it will be straight forward. Too true the loco is light enough to begin with. When compared to my Bachmann 0-6-0's.   all the best. Kevin

After reading your post Kevin, I went to RMWeb and happened to see a thread there about this loco.  You might want to take a look.  One of the posters confirmed Jeffs' point that the loco will do 4 coaches which seems more than adequate to me.

The only decoders that I will positively NOT use are those from Hornby - my NCE can't even talk to them.  I won't choose Bachmann from choice either but they're palatable.  Lenz might just be the best, but I've used DCC Concepts and Hattons own brand (I suspect they're DCC Concepts under the skin).  Really anything from a recognized DCC manufacturer will work well.

John