Post any questions arising from "First Steps with RR&Co"

Hi John.

Thanks for that very helpful reply.  I think the question of stop position varying between a 6 coach old high friction train and the same engine running light will have to wait for live testing.

As for the couplings, I would like to change, but there are so many other jobs…I am using tension locks but I will use servo operated ramps. The length of the spring ramps is about 2" and my power ramps will be about the same - not much different to kadees when it comes to stopping accuracy.

I have had an intensive session today with my Silver version of your tutorial layout. The tutorial is exactly what I need, thanks very much for taking the time to write it. I have used a modified Kadee shuffle as a macro and used your idea of multiple stop and brake markers.

I've been trying to achieve two things; first to give sound engines a different push back time than the silents for uncoupling but without the reed switches they talked about on the RR&Co forum. I can do it provided all sound engines have similar characteristics (and I bet they don't), and second, to set up different stop markers for coupling up to different train lengths. So far I have only set this up for your B sets of 20" but the principle works, and its only a matter of writing a set of schedules for each different length. I could not make much progress with trains in Silver, so I just don't tell the software they exist. The engine drives up to a calculated stop position in the expectation that it will meet a coupling hook there.

So far I can hit the button to send one of three B sets, chosen by the program, from Weston, uncouple and run around at Eastham and bring it back. I haven't had time to complete the routine for bringing the spare engine from its spur and coupling up, but for testing I couple with drag'n'drop. With the help of a flagman I can do an automatic routine of the train departing, followed by its old engine running into the spur. I bet there's an easier way of doing that, too.

To make the most of the 30 days I tend to have a full day with the software, then three or four days off to recover, so it will be a while before I have the routines for coupling up at Weston fully working

If anyone has discovered how to run automatically through a runround using a train in Silver, please let me know how you do it.

 

Hi Brian

Thanks for the kind words….glad to be of help

[user=449]brianpr1[/user] wrote:

So far I can hit the button to send one of three B sets, chosen by the program, from Weston, uncouple and run around at Eastham and bring it back. I haven't had time to complete the routine for bringing the spare engine from its spur and coupling up, but for testing I couple with drag'n'drop. With the help of a flagman I can do an automatic routine of the train departing, followed by its old engine running into the spur. I bet there's an easier way of doing that, too.

Start the schedule that gets the light loco back to the spur as a schedule specific operation when the train returning to Eastham has entered or left an intermediate block……you just chhose a point/block when you are satisfied it is clear  

 

So far I have only set this up for your B sets of 20" but the principle works, and its only a matter of writing a set of schedules for each different length.

Why do you need different schedules for different lengths…..isnt it different stop markers?

If anyone has discovered how to run automatically through a runround using a train in Silver, please let me know how you do it.

 

Geoff has done this and I think he has described it either earlier in this thread or as as an add on to the tutorial.

With the speed you have picked all this stuff up and the complexity of the operations you are planning you should invest the money you have saved from redundant stop blocks in Gold:lol::lol::lol:

Kind Regards

 

 

[user=434]John Dew[/user] wrote:

 
Geoff has done this and I think he has described it either earlier in this thread or as as an add on to the tutorial.

Brian - post 177 in this thread might be helpful to you. I explain there how I have worked a schedule for a runaround using Silver and I am happy enough with it.

Incidentally you mention reeds in passing. Another device worth considering if you find you need precise position detection of locos is a light sensitive resistor. There are plenty about now, and they have the advantage of not requiring anything like a magnet attached to the loco (or any other stock) being detected. There are also several circuits around that will handle the input from variable resistance detectors.

Geoff,

Thanks for that pointer, I had forgotten about that section. I had picked up your RR forum question, and H. Freiwald's answer helped persuade me to try an engine only approach. I need to think again about using trains: I think I am missing something in activating the stop markers for each length of train.

The LDR circuits do seem to have possibilities. I actually built a plug'n'play version of the one which uses four LDRs: one ambient light reference and three detectors, but it still needs a switch type feedback module. It has adjustable sensitivity and can usually detect the shadow of a tension lock coupling. Once I realised that multiple stop markers were included in Silver I put LDRs on the back burner.

When I read all your posts around 177 I saw error messages that looked familiar. In setting up the schedules I had already remembered not to use a successor after an operations list and the schedule worked fine, passing control to the next as the operations completed. Then I put the operations list, except for a couple of items at the end, into a macro. The operation to start the next schedule was still at the end of the list. I got messages very similar to yours, and fixed it by increasing the delay just after the macro. My guess is that the macro operations run concurrently with the operations list, the problem is not just with successor schedules.

John,

You said:
<Start the schedule that gets the light loco back to the spur as a  schedule specific operation when the train returning to Eastham has  entered or left an intermediate block……you just chhose a point/block  when you are satisfied it is clear>

I had not thought of that, I just set them to start together but increased the Try Again time for the light engine, so it was still trying when the departing train released the route to the spur.

The flagman is to control which of the three Platform to Spur schedules is started. The way I am handling this is possibly unnecessary, but I have put a separate stop block at the end of each platform block to allow the relief engine to enter the platform block and couple. When a train has departed, each stop block has an engine but only two of the platform blocks have trains. The trains are not detected and the software does not know they are there so all three platforms look the same on the Dispatcher. Which  of the three Stop block to Spur schedules should start?  The condition for the flagman (there are three flagmen, one for each platform) is that the stop block AND the platform are occupied. The trigger is the start of the schedule taking the train to Eastham. The action is to start the schedule which runs from the stop block controlled by the triggered flagman. Perhaps it would be better to use a switch to remember the condition?

<Why do you need different schedules for different lengths…..isnt it  different stop markers?>

Yes, I am using separate markers for each length of train, but I think I must have got the technique wrong. I assumed that the only way to pass on the length was to use specific schedules: a B set departure schedule would pass on to eventually start B set couple, and this activates the B set stop marker. I guess there must be a better way. I must have another look at how to set up a train in Silver.

I think there may still be one surprising weakness in  Gold. I picked up from one of your posts that you have difficulty in stopping a 7" engine and a 5" engine over the right spot, presumably because the software loses the position of the rear coupling of the engine. Did you ever find a way round this?

Playing with this layout is showing weaknesses in Silver which I would not have found otherwise, as well as being a pretty intensive training course for the software. I am beginning to look more seriously at Gold.

Brian

i had a similar problem, two freight sidings that a train would go round to drop freight wagons and then return to the storage. another loco would leave the storage and attempt to pick up the freight wagons. the loco would not know what siding to enter to pick up the freight wagons. i got round this by using two push buttons, one for each siding .use the finish operations for the schedule to activate the push buttons.  and in the conditions for the push button put contact indicator must be active for siding  1 or 2. this will then activate one push button. then in the schedule to pick up the freight wagons i set both sidings as the finish siding but put a condition in the schedule  that the push button must be active to use that block. took a bit to figure out but it worked.

also about the train lengths (this may be a suck eggs moment) can you set a stop marker for the block and then assign 1 loco to that stop marker and also the schedule in question.

You said:
<Start the schedule that gets the light loco back to the spur as a schedule specific operation when the train returning to Eastham has entered or left an intermediate block……you just chhose a point/block when you are satisfied it is clear>

I had not thought of that, I just set them to start together but increased the Try Again time for the light engine, so it was still trying when the departing train released the route to the spur.

I guess that works but I think you will need something more sophisticated/specific when your timetable gets more complex

The flagman is to control which of the three Platform to Spur schedules is started. The way I am handling this is possibly unnecessary, but I have put a separate stop block at the end of each platform block to allow the relief engine to enter the platform block and couple. When a train has departed, each stop block has an engine but only two of the platform blocks have trains. The trains are not detected and the software does not know they are there so all three platforms look the same on the Dispatcher. Which  of the three Stop block to Spur schedules should start?  The condition for the flagman (there are three flagmen, one for each platform) is that the stop block AND the platform are occupied. The trigger is the start of the schedule taking the train to Eastham. The action is to start the schedule which runs from the stop block controlled by the triggered flagman. Perhaps it would be better to use a switch to remember the condition?

I am absolutely certain (at least in Gold) you do not require a stop block at the end of the platform to allow coupling. Set the rules correctly and a loco on the coupling schedule will be able to enter the occupied platform block.


In gold the train sets ie Loco plus carriages are detected, tracked and identified…….I think you have focuussed on one of the gold pluses


I dont follow why there would be more than one loco in the platform blocks………as soon as the train departs wouldnt you want the released loco to be sent to the loco spur to be watered and fueled ready for the next turn?

However I think you are correct about flagmen and switches although you may be able to do it using a single three aspect signal per platform block in lieu of two switches which you could then use as conditions eg

Red     Block is empty

Amber  Loco only

Green Loco and Carriages

The signal aspects would be activated by operations at the start and end of schedules

 

<Why do you need different schedules for different lengths…..isnt it different stop markers?>

Yes, I am using separate markers for each length of train, but I think I must have got the technique wrong. I assumed that the only way to pass on the length was to use specific schedules: a B set departure schedule would pass on to eventually start B set couple, and this activates the B set stop marker. I guess there must be a better way. I must have another look at how to set up a train in Silver.

 In gold I would have a condition on each stop marker so that for example stop marker "2 car" could only be activated by trains in  "train group 2 car" . I am moving towards the concept of time tables rather than wholly successors. I think I need to have a clearer idea of what you are aiming for lCould you list the schedules/car lengths in the sequence you want to run

I think there may still be one surprising weakness in  Gold. I picked up from one of your posts that you have difficulty in stopping a 7" engine and a 5" engine over the right spot, presumably because the software loses the position of the rear coupling of the engine. Did you ever find a way round this?

This was a problem I anticipated rather than experienced

TC will stop the loco on the nail at either the head, tail or middle………………so you could stop a light engine of any length from 3" to 15" with its head, tail or middle over a magnet. But if the loco is attached to carriages and becomes a train set that is more difficult because TC takes the total train set length into consideration

With the 1.5+" magnet tolerance I can stop a 57xx Tank and a 45xx Tank so the rear uncoupler is over the magnet. I havent done this yet but when I run a tender loco I believe I will have to set set up a second stop marker…..if required both markers will have the same  schedule(s) condition but one will have a tank train group condition and the other a tender train group condition 

Hope this helps

Regards

 

 

 

When we first talked about this I had flagmen and switches but flagmen are redundant here Matts solution is simple and elegant and works fine……Switches will do the job if it is yes or no but Brian want to have 3 variables yes no and maybe……in which case you need 2 switches per platform or my 3 aspect solution

Switches are really neat I was going to write this up in the tutorial but here is a summary

I have the B Set and Run Round Routine…….but occasionally I want to attach a siphon that will be shunted into the bay.

When the siphon is attached to the BSet at the terminus Switch 1 is turned on

When the loco starts the run round routine at the branch if switch 1 is on the loco will start a series of schedules which will uncouple the siphon and shunt it into the bay. At the conclusion of these schedules it turns switch 1 off ……to prevent this happening next time,………. turns switch 2 on and resumes its run round routine.

The autotrain runs into the bay and normally stops at the buffers if switch 2 is on it stops short so that it clears the siphon 

The system truly is amazing…….thinking about maybe I should go the 3 aspect route :hmm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My long awaited PC interface for my ZTC 511 arrived this morning. I had it connected within 20 mins and was quickly controlling locos from the on screen throttle. :Happy

 

I can report that RR&Co is quite happy with it and it works just fine alongside the LDT s88 occupancy detector interface.

I have successfully assigned a couple of point addresses, and these also work fine.

Now all I need is time !!!!!  The YMR module is taking every spare moment just now, so not sure when I can progress further with RR&Co, but I will probably get some more LDT s88 occupancy detector kits on order so that I can be building more when I can. If I can find a little time to get the Mangarth junction board back in place, then I could at least think about doing some profiling.

John and Matt, you are really giving me a lot to think about. My brain hurts!

I have deliberately made the setup more difficult than Matt's freight sidings: This is a learning exercise and an evaluation attempt so I need it to be a big challenge.

Matt, I too think your use of switches is neat and powerful, I can use that in all sorts of situations. I had not thought of using a 3 aspect signal as a switch so that's another powerful trick I could use.

Basically what I am trying to do is to run three trains, with a relief engine, automatically and continuously from Weston and back without needing operator intervention and with a random element in the order of departure. Timetables are a step too far right now. Before I set out schedule lists etc. I need to go back for a rethink of strategy. My scheme of setting up a loop of schedules for each train length looks as if it may be unnecessary, as well as needing a huge number of schedules, so I may have to start again and this will need fundamental changes. On the other hand it may be that using a train in Silver makes it impossible to change engines. I think this was Geoff's next problem after he sorted out the runaround. I will try it out and see how far I get. It could be that using a timetable would simplify everything by removing the random part and defining the departure platform. If I really get stuck that could be the way out, but using Gold may be a better way out.

John, you said:
<I dont follow why there would be more than one loco in the platform  blocks………as soon as the train departs wouldnt you want  the released loco to be sent to the loco spur to be watered and fueled  ready for the next turn?>

My problem is "How do I do that?".  In my scheme of ignoring the trains and simply positioning the engines, at some stage there will be an arrived train in each platform. The engine and part of the front coach are in Pxstop and each engine has done the shuffle. Each train can be pulled by any one of the four engines, and the engines will be of different lengths. I have yet to write the schedules to get the relief engine coupled to a train, and for this exercise I want to choose which train at random. Let's suppose for now that the engine is coupled ready for departure before the third train arrived, so it had a choice of two. The platform containing the train ready to depart has the arrival engine trapped in Pxstop and the departure engine in Px and this is the case of "more than one loco in the platform blocks". The departure schedule start blocks are P1, P2 and P3. I do not know in advance which of these has the train ready to depart, but only one will be occupied, the schedule starts and the appropriate flagman gives a wave.

 There are so many possibilities in the software that I may have missed something and overlooked a blindingly obvious solution to this.

I think you are both right about switches rather than flagmen wherever possible, or maybe I could combine the two in some situations.

Thaks Brian

I have to say I am confused about flagmen……I keep trying to use them and then find a more elegant solution……I suspect they had to be used in V5 but have to some extent been made redundant. I was taught by guys who have more experience than I (ie they used V5) and I think they still tend to prefer flagmen.

OK back to your problem

4 locos……………….can you tell us the length of each?

3 trains (sets of carriages) are they of equal length? If not the lengths

There are a number of possible start up scenarios but so I understand the sequence will this do:

Loco 1 and Carriages A (trainset 1A) are ready to depart in Eastham

Loco 2 and Carriages B  (trainset 2B) are ready to depart in Weston P1 

Loco 3 and Carriages C  (trainset 3C) are ready to depart in Weston P2

Loco 4 is in the spur

1A arrives in P3 it is the only option…….switch P3x is turned on as an operation

Loco 4 couples to 1A (and eventually becomes 4a)……it can only go to P3 because of Switch x

Now any one of the three trains could randomly depart for Eastham……..the successor schedule is the light engine to spur……I think by fiddling with the rules you can ensure that it will fail unless it is 4A that departs thus releasing loco 1

However if 2B or 3C depart you dont have a loco in the spur to release them when they return

A better solution, which is quite protypical, would be to have the coupling sequence as the successor to the Weston Arrival. The light engine can only go to the platform with switch x on.

Thus  Loco 4  couples up to 1A and pulls clear with the train of P3 releasing loco 1 to the spur (switch x turns off) and then pushing the train back into P3……..these would all be simple successor schedules………..then any one of the the three trains would be the next to depart and you would have a loco in the spur. 

QED (I think :hmm)……………subject to loco and carriage length.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[user=422]Geoff R[/user] wrote:

My long awaited PC interface for my ZTC 511 arrived this morning. I had it connected within 20 mins and was quickly controlling locos from the on screen throttle. :Happy

 

I can report that RR&Co is quite happy with it and it works just fine alongside the LDT s88 occupancy detector interface.

I have successfully assigned a couple of point addresses, and these also work fine.

Now all I need is time !!!!!  The YMR module is taking every spare moment just now, so not sure when I can progress further with RR&Co, but I will probably get some more LDT s88 occupancy detector kits on order so that I can be building more when I can. If I can find a little time to get the Mangarth junction board back in place, then I could at least think about doing some profiling.

Congratulations Geoff…………..cant wait to see that junction functioning…….have fun

well done geoff

must be a great feeling, i am holding back on hooking up until i have more track down and at least one loop hooked up. i don't wamt to waste the 30 days.

 

Following the UK RR&CO get together and following John Dews excellent tutorials i have managed to get a start using Traincontroller by Railroad&Co. This is the first schedule of my branch terminus operations. Passenger train arrives and uncouples (Kadee shuffle) ready for a departing loco to be backed on to leave with the departing train. I am using tension lock couplers for now until i get some Kadees.



Thanks Matt, John look where you have got me in a week!

Regards  Pete

Hi Pete

Glad we could help…….that looks just great…………..I hadnt realised tension lock could uncouple so well……is the uncoupling ramp permanently in position and it is the shuffle that uncouples or is it something more complex

Whatever…..isnt it a great feeling when the schedule starts and it all works as planned

Congratulations again

Regards

 

 

 

 

Hi John thanks for the comment its all due to somebody who posted a really useful tutorial:hmm

Nothing special about the uncoupler John its a standard Peco sprung ramp just slotted in for fun and practice. The kadee shuffle does help disengage it though, plus i have removed the lock on the coach so there is only one to lift which does help.

I am now working on getting the loco into the block from the shed, struggling a bit here so i must read more carefully, on an earlier post to me you mentioned a virtual contact i know the principle but have difficulty implementing it:hmm

Let me persevere a bit more as i learn at the same time and if i am about to put a rope over the rafters i will shout for help.

Regards

Pete

Pete

glad it is all working, all i done was show you the tutorial so john can take all the credit. if you go back to the start of this thread john asked a question is the tutorial worthwhile due to the lack of interest. i think with that video you have answered that question:thumbs

pete

have you seen the thread on the forum about the tension lock couplings that use a paper clip? i can't remember the thread but this may be an option rather than kaydee. i am sure somene will remember and post a link, i will look in the index.

Pete,

I am impressed with the video. Are you using Gold or Silver? Did you set the uncouple position as tail of train with only the engine or is there more to it?

John,

After your last comments on my attempts with Silver I have decided to rethink the schedules and the logic, including your suggestion to use switches. I will try to build up a complete cycle and then come back.

Well here it is my terminus ops experiment completed, basically once the fiddle yard is in and a turntable it will be a cyclic event of a variety of trains performing this basic operation. Needs a bit of fine tuning as my pax get whiplash as the train departs the station!



Brian this is with a demo of gold i needed it for the separate command.I am still trying to justify the cost for my meagre layout. I started a topic on RR&co to see if Herr Freiwald would consider a cheaper "Lite" version of gold with some size restrictions. One can only ask!

Setting the stop position was nothing too technical i can assure you, i used the head of the train entering the block to set my brake and stop markers then adjusted them until i stopped the front of the train before the buffers leaving enough room to allow the move forward after uncoupling then i dropped my uncoupler in the middle to allow some degree of latitude. But saying that after loco profiling it stops spot on every time.

But if you look at the screenshot of my humble switchboard you will see i have cheated….no trains no coaches! i just couldn't get the separation right? When the train left to depart the arriving loco tried leaving as well because TC thought they were joined! I will now stop boring you all now.

Regards

Pete

(Click to enlarge)

[user=450]wogga[/user] wrote:

Well here it is my terminus ops experiment completed, basically once the fiddle yard is in and a turntable it will be a cyclic event of a variety of trains performing this basic operation. Needs a bit of fine tuning as my pax get whiplash as the train departs the station!

Great Video……you sure move fast. Love the way the light engines crawl about. You may be able to fix the departing speed with schedule specific (or route) speed limits although I have a similar problem on one of my schedules and I am playing with temporary speed restrictions that are released or activated by action markers……..when it works I will write it up

 

But if you look at the screenshot of my humble switchboard you will see i have cheated….no trains no coaches! i just couldn't get the separation right? When the train left to depart the arriving loco tried leaving as well because TC thought they were joined! I will now stop boring you all now.

I had this problem………its covered in the tutorial…………you have to get the Join and separate commands in the right place and right sequence….. 

Regards