Freelance 00 layout

Hi John,
Thanks again for responding to my posts.

Your last post hit the nail on the head!  - I have been working on the problem most of the day and went through the TC Forum looking for posts on the Line Up function.  It was there that I found some topics where members were referring to momentum contacts (MC)…   then I found a post that explained how to make a MC using flagmen and you have described the process to the letter.
I have now got the process working but still have a problem ( do you get that feeling of deja vu?)

The actual layout has four blocks that can be used by locos to get the four blocks in the storage yard. 
One of the MC flagmen is positioned at the block immediately before the point fan-work that leads to the storage blocks.  Depending on which block you enter the route can have up to four sets of points plus some additional track that is not connected to a block as, on its own, it is too short.

So here's the problem : ( and part of the solution)
When I first ran a schedule on the layout I programmed all those going to Block 30-12.
 The locos ran short as I set the formula to include the length of the block.  If I set it to the length of the block plus the length of the track work  between the block with the flagman and the start of Block 30-12 , it appeared to work OK. -Success!!
I tested it with three locos and the results were consistent. The actual block is 100cm and I added 35cm for the point-work.
Then I did the same thing for the  schedule for the next block 30-06 adding another 30 cm for the length of the additional point -  Nah - didnt work - I ended up adding not 70cm but 125 ! (which also worked for block 30-02)
All testing was with the same three loco's!! so why 30-06 is different I don't know.

I've pulled stumps for the day and will give the actual layout another go tomorrow -  being in week 8 of lockdown and not yet warm enough to go swimming in the pool, it will keep me occupied.
 
As it is been a long time since this part of the layout has seen this much activity I'm finding lots of issues with trackwork and points that are being triggered too late. - Now I know why I have some surplus equipment that I must have bought to fix the problem and never got around to it.  :shock:

If you have nothing better to do , or for amusement, I have attached  the file that runs my layout - the one I posted was a "proof of concept file" that I put together so that I could keep it simple.  As you will see -there is a lot of unfinished business where I started something and then life got in the way.
 

The key with flagman activated stop markers is to keep the distance involved to a minimum and use precise triggers

The flagman in 30-02 can be triggered directly when CI 10-14 is turned off. The flagman in 10-14 is redundant and adds to the transaction time.

Using "unoccupied" as a trigger is far less precise than using an indicator. Unoccupied in this context means waiting for the block to be released. The schedule rules you have used set block release by Occupation ie Unoccupied status is set when a stop marker is reached in the subsequent block! This may well account for the different block distances you have experienced.

I use a single flagman activated by an indicator turning off in the preceding block all over the place in Granby. It usually involve conditions to ensure the flagman is initially off and is only triggered when intended.

If you like I can continue working on the smaller file showing how I would program the routine?

As has often said TC usually has a dozen ways of solving a problem

[user=434]John Dew[/user] wrote:

If you like I can continue working on the smaller file showing how I would program the routine?

As has often said TC usually has a dozen ways of solving a problem

That would be very helpful and save me hours of experimenting.   :thumbs and I am sure be very elegant - for instance using the flagman as the MC I find having even the empty blocks showing as occupied a distraction.

Update :  After another afternoon on the layout I have found that your suggestion has certainly improved the running of the schedules and things are running well - expect for schedule 10-06  

I can see that TC treats the locos as train sets which disappear in the destination block.  For some reason I have yet to fathom,locos that run on the reverse start on schedule 10-06 never finish the schedule it just hangs, not releasing the previous block and not releasing the "train set".
It runs OK on the simulator and it impacts all trains when running on the layout.  I must have changed something by accident  as it was working OK yesterday morning ( There has been a lot of experimenting since then!) 
As an aside do you use Watch dog?

Hi Dave
I am working away at it but I got diverted into the garden:sad:

Everything is looking good except I cant get the 3rd loco into block 5. I think it may be the formula I am using…….if it is working ok for you could you post the formula you are using?

Glad you like the single flagman.

Can you expand on watch dog? Not sure what it is!:oops:

Cheers

Hi John,

Block 5 was deliberately set up so that the third loco would not fit. The length of the block in the formula is 60 cm
The length of engine 1 is 20cm, engine 2 is 10cm an d engine 3 is 30cm.  Allowing for the 10cm gap only two of the locos will fit.  The aim was to come up with logic that would send the 3rd loco in to siding block 6.  You solved this problem with the prerequisites solution.
(I haven't attempted to incorporate  this logic into the schedules on the layout as yet as I want to solve the issues that have arisen with operating the locos in the real world.)

The problem on the layout was that I didn't have a physical momentum contact which you suggested should be a flagman - my solution was to use two and a block - you suggested one flag linked to the contact indicator on the preceding block.

I am still working on trying to find out why the reverse schedules are sometimes not completing in the reverse schedules when I run the schedules on the layout. This means the loco is still in a trainset even though it has triggered the markers in the destination block.  I recall I had this problem many years ago but I cant recall exactly what was causing it ! :oops:

On the physical layout I have also rediscovered some "dodgy" track work at points that are still using Lenz decoders and are slow at responding to commands resulting in the occasional derailment! :roll:. This had not been an issue of concern as the locos never used the track under computer control before but now that I had changed the track work to give me better train flow I will need to fix it.

I work in inches so the train lengths show up in inches…..I will have another go tomorrow it may be everything didnt get converted!
I am guessing your point problem relates to Lenz 150 decoders and stall motor points like Tortoise and Cobalt?

The problem arises where a route has a number of points all of which are connected to the same LS150. 

One work around I used was to rewire some of the decoders. Typically the points were numbered in numerical order on the layout. Being logical, points 1-6 went to the first decoder and 7-12 to the next and so on. 

A schedule that had a route with 3 points more often than not were controlled by the same decoder. If I hooked point 3 to decoder 2 and point 4 to decoder 3 the problem largely went away for that schedule. 

I also bought one switch8 decoder which doesnt have this problem but was able to rewire the remaining connections

Hi John,

A few years ago I replaced all but one of the Lenz 150 decoders for the very reason you outlined.  The only one I didn't replace was the one that drives two Peco point motors on the piece of the layout I am now upgrading. Like you I replaced the Lenz decoders that drove the Tortoise motors on the layout with an NCE Switch 8 (Mark11) and replaced most of the Lenz decoders that drove the Peco motors with NCE Snap it.

Unfortunately the CovID situation has meant that getting new decoders on shore is difficult - I managed to find a supplier in Melbourne , but delivery will be problematic as both Vic & NSW are in lock-down - and worse still most of the delivery drivers are in local government areas that are in stricter lock-downs with all but essential workers confined to 5km from home.

I also bought a Cobalt digital point motor - not that I need it but with its built in decoder  I thought I'd give it a go. ( when I've sorted out the current problems.

The Watchdog feature is a box on the rules in schedules ( I have going through them desperately trying to find a solution to my reverse start problem.  I haven't tested it out yet but apparently flashes a message on the screen if TC thinks something has gone awry with the loco on the schedule - it works on expected activity.


Re the schedules and imperial and metric, there was ( and still maybe) a bug in the line up feature where the measurements in the formula had a default of imperial even if the software was using metric.
That is something I still have to check out on the layout - I have been using the unscientific method of trial and error - if the loco runs short I increase the number by a percentage of the existing and visa versa.
Cheers


Cheers
 

Hi Dave

Sorry about going over old ground with the LS150 :oops:

I dont use Watchdog. When trouble shooting I use message details and sometimes Pins

I think I have got as far as I can go with the small file…….revised version attached. It reflects how I would set the routine up. Everything works properly in the simulator. I need to run it on the track to test the distance formula. The metric/imperial conversion is a real pain. You will see that Block 5 is set at 120" because the three locos plus distances total 101"! If I enter 3.9" (10cm converted) as the distance between the locos TC immediately converts it to 3,900 :shock:. I think the only way to get the correct distance is by trial and error. If you use the attached file remember that TC will convert most measurements to metric but not the distances in the formulae

Have you solved your "reverse" schedule problem? If you havent here are some ideas

The block length of 10-06 is 20". The stop marker is 21"

I couldnt find a separate reverse schedule ie 30-07 to 10-06 have you tried setting one and testing as a separate entity

TC operates the line up on FIFO…….because of the layout you are operating on LIFO. I would include a "Separate Left most Loco followed by Delay 7 sec in the start command of the stand alone schedule. If I dont allow TC time to process the separate command I have had lots of instances of the second loco following the intended loco out of the station :twisted:

Hope you get it to work ok

Thanks John,
I will incorporate the prerequisite command into Notmutley.
Still having issues with the reverse start. I think it is something to do with the blocks on that run as the schedule is getting the loco into the destination block, the brake and stop markers are triggering but the schedule remains open.
Perversly I programmed a main line block the same way and it runs OK - but despite my trying to find a difference in the set up it remains elusive hence me thinking its the block set up in the storage yard blocks - I am about to put a "phantom block" in the yard so that TC thinks that trains can exit from both ends and see if that makes any difference.
I'll keep you posted.
Oh I found a "Booster" command - does that speed everything up? :)

Update.
I have solved the problem although I have not found the cause. I have put a
terminate schedule command on the stop marker when the schedule is running in reverse.  

I thought I had better read the manual on what a Booster really does.. interestingly the complete opposite to my attempt at humour.

Now I can get back to "playing trains"

Hi Dave

Glad you finally got it to work………I have had a few instances of insoluble problems that suddenly cure themselves…..best not to ask too many questions!

I havent done anything with these relatively new introductions like boosters and stations… I had assumed it was an advanced method of controlling separate power districts?

I have just had a frustrating day playing trains……..based on previous experience I have very very few hidden sidings but unfortunately my doubleheaded banker found the least accessible hidden siding in which to stall :twisted:

The joys of modelling!

[user=434]John Dew[/user] wrote:

I have just had a frustrating day playing trains……..based on previous experience I have very very few hidden sidings but unfortunately my doubleheaded banker found the least accessible hidden siding in which to stall :twisted:

The joys of modelling!

Now John, you didn't expect it to stall out in plain sight did you ?   

[user=606]Sol[/user] wrote:

[user=434]John Dew[/user] wrote:

I have just had a frustrating day playing trains……..based on previous experience I have very very few hidden sidings but unfortunately my doubleheaded banker found the least accessible hidden siding in which to stall :twisted:

The joys of modelling!

Now John, you didn't expect it to stall out in plain sight did you ? 

I have replaced the Lenz LS150 with a DCC concepts ADS4sx - an accessory decoder for solenoids.
Because the Peco motors already had the mechanical polarity switch attached I decided to leave them in situ and just run the three wires into the decoder. (The ADS4sx is so much easier to set up than the Lenz and works a charm.)

I would normally have replaced them with a NCE "snap it" but they were not available from any supplier In Australia and Metro Hobbies in Melbourne recommended the DCC Concepts decoder.   Interestingly I first dealt with DCC Concepts when they were based in Western Australia and they were a phone call away!  I now see they are based in the UK and have a much broader range of products!   Does anyone know if they moved to the UK or where they bought out.  I can recall the owner ( who's name I cant recall was from the UK and was building a big layout in the property he was using for the business. He frequently talked about his trips to China to ensure they were building things to his specifications!  A very friendly fella.

Richard Johnston (Johnson?) still operates the business. He is now pretty much based in the UK but I thought he was still running the original business in WA

Dave,       DCCconcepts Home Page

Well its February ( almost March) and the grandkids are back at school after the long summer break and I can once again get into the train room.
I decided I would ease back in slowly by seeing how much I had forgotten about installing and programming a decoder. To that end I opened an Oxford Rail Dean Goods loco that has sat in its box since I purchased it  from Hattons in 2018 for the princely sum of 85 quid ( which sounds very cheap when I look online and see the price of locos on offer today!!   Whats happened in the past four years???  Are manufacturers using COVID as an excuse to hike prices to ridiculous levels? 

Anyway after a few shall we say hiccups I succeeded in getting the decoder installed and programmed but …. the loco performs hopelessly. The loco runs OK at fast speeds but at low speeds it is all over the place - I am using an ESU Lokpilot decoder ( also four years old ).

I have read online that the problem maybe the capacitor on the DCC plug - but before I attempt to remove it ( its the very small micro variety) I thought I should check to see if anyone else had similar problems.

[user=540]gdaysydney[/user] wrote:

Well its February ( almost March) and the grandkids are back at school after the long summer break and I can once again get into the train room.
I decided I would ease back in slowly by seeing how much I had forgotten about installing and programming a decoder. To that end I opened an Oxford Rail Dean Goods loco that has sat in its box since I purchased it  from Hattons in 2018 for the princely sum of 85 quid ( which sounds very cheap when I look online and see the price of locos on offer today!!   Whats happened in the past four years???  Are manufacturers using COVID as an excuse to hike prices to ridiculous levels? 

Anyway after a few shall we say hiccups I succeeded in getting the decoder installed and programmed but …. the loco performs hopelessly. The loco runs OK at fast speeds but at low speeds it is all over the place - I am using an ESU Lokpilot decoder ( also four years old ).

I have read online that the problem maybe the capacitor on the DCC plug - but before I attempt to remove it ( its the very small micro variety) I thought I should check to see if anyone else had similar problems.

Hi Dave

Oxford Dean Goods are notoriously poor runners! I had to send one back which is very rare for me. Mine now behave extremely well but it did require surgery and the addition of as much lead as I could fit in.I hard wired a Zimo economy chip +6700 uF Stay Alive into the tender- to do this I had to carve out the plastic coal and create another one.

Whatever you do I would strongly recommend fitting a Stay Alive of some sort

Good Luck- let me know if you need any more info

Best wishes

Thanks John,
I'll hard wire the decoder and see if that solves it as the loco runs OK in DC

[user=540]gdaysydney[/user] wrote:

Well its February ( almost March) and the grandkids are back at school after the long summer break and I can once again get into the train room.
I decided I would ease back in slowly by seeing how much I had forgotten about installing and programming a decoder. To that end I opened an Oxford Rail Dean Goods loco that has sat in its box since I purchased it  from Hattons in 2018 for the princely sum of 85 quid ( which sounds very cheap when I look online and see the price of locos on offer today!!   Whats happened in the past four years???  Are manufacturers using COVID as an excuse to hike prices to ridiculous levels? 

Anyway after a few shall we say hiccups I succeeded in getting the decoder installed and programmed but …. the loco performs hopelessly. The loco runs OK at fast speeds but at low speeds it is all over the place - I am using an ESU Lokpilot decoder ( also four years old ).

I have read online that the problem maybe the capacitor on the DCC plug - but before I attempt to remove it ( its the very small micro variety) I thought I should check to see if anyone else had similar problems.

Very sorry to hear about the Dean Goods, you are not alone. This model has had a long history of issues and there are 86 pages on it over on RMWeb and misc. reports on here.


Pre-warned by others experiences posted in detail, I asked one well known "box shifter" to test for the known poor running at slow speed issue given my location in Oz and it was the expensive sound version. What arrived was more kangaroo than model loco and under duress, said company funded return freight and my entire costs. So despite my efforts I also was scarred!

Second Box shifter was much more accommodating (back then anyway) and thoroughly tested the loco before shipping me a new purchase. It ran very well for some time until something shorted out the speaker and then ESU Chip.

More stress and complaining got me a full replacement of the DCC hardware direct from OR, no way was I sending back an actual example of a proper working version. I think I posted some video over on that topic of mine working well.

Final twist, others later reported their locos shorting out a motor and killing the DCC! That was it, out came the sound kit, in went a cheapie DCC and the ESU now graces my Collett Goods.

I suspect you might have some difficulty getting redress after so long but others might have suggestions for improving slow running. Some DCC CV adjustments can help I think but the details are hazy now. Not sure why hard wiring the DCC would help though.

Checking my DCC install notes on the Dean, I turned off Back EMF viz. CV#10 =0; essential because it is a coreless motor.

I have a vague recollection that the CV number to control this function may be chip dependent. I'm using an old style DCC Concepts Zeno Nano.