GWR/LMS OO Gauge DCC RR&Co

[user=434]John Dew[/user] wrote:

I hope you liked the photos and didnt mind this somewhat meandering monologue.

All interesting stuff John, keep 'em coming  :thumbs


Ed

Hi John,

A fine opportunity to spot some rarely seen goods stock that you must have well hidden away.

Colin

'meandering monologue' -

May you meander merrily with much modelling magnificence for millemia to come! Cheers.. :cheers

  Hi John from a soggy Loire Valley,
 
Your capture of another one of my favourite Great Western locos, wearing its coat of well earned Granby grime brings yet another big smile to my face. Those solid Victorian proportions of the classic 4-4-0 Earl had remarkable longevity, linking the Boer War with British Railways.
 
An excellent and illuminating post John and I hope that your Mogul meanders its way to Granby not too far behind schedule. Right, I need to go and open a package which has just arrived from Hattons to see what lies within.
 
Best,
 
Bill

Sorry for the delay in replying guys……… :oops:    Not long after Bill was opening a parcel from Liverpool in the Loire, I was doing the same in the Pacific North West………..much excitement!

I glad you shared my enthusiasm for the Dukedog…..I never tire of telling that tale about the noble Earls……its so quintessentially GWR

Loved the Rambling clip, Doug …….very appropriate :)

Best wishes from Vancouver where it is very very soggy. :sad:n

Great Service from Hattons…….it took just over three weeks for my new Mogul from Dapol to arrive. Pre-Covid that would have been pretty exceptional.

Casual viewers may have sensed a certain excitement regardimain this release. Most people tend to associate the GWR  with the ubiquitous Pannier at one end of the spectrum and elegant and powerful Kings and Castles at the other. Why all the fuss about a 2-6-0 workhorse?

Over 320 locos were built between 1911 and 1932 and they could be seen all over the network right through to the early sixties. The ideal mixed traffic loco, they were equally at home with freight, main line expresses or a local passenger service. In Sept 1947 there were 48 locos in Chester Shed, of which 9 were Panniers and 10 were Moguls. A few miles away at Croes Newyd there were 40 locos of which 10 were Moguls.

Sadly this was not reflected in the RTR model scene. My Bachmann split chassis Mogul was purchased in the early nineties….never a particularly good runner it finally expired in 2010.

It was generally expected that Bachmann would eventually release an updated model…….but we waited and waited…….and eventually Dapol stepped into the vacuum:




Its a very impressive, highly detailed model with a number of interesting innovations.

Here are some of the features that caught my eye:



Exquisite backhead detailing


The smoke box door is removable and provided the easiest hassle free decoder installation ever



The door is a push fit and prised off with the supplied tool (made of soft plastic to prevent scratching). The tool is then reversed and used to hook and withdraw the PCB from its runners in the smoke box.

Off with the blanking plate and press fit the Next 18 decoder (Zimo M618). Slide the PCB back into the smokebox…….very easy, no fiddling……..it really was as easy as that…….no screws or wires….no struggling to get the body back on

The pickups on loco and tender were properly adjusted and the wheels were clean…..which must be a first for a new loco for me!  Ran perfectly, without hesitation straight out of the box. In the comprehensive Owners Handbook they say there is no need for running in but I ran mine for 30 minutes each way on the rolling road.

On the layout, with DCC, she proved very sure footed and coping easily with some of my less than stellar track………which is more than could be said for Hornby's Prairie. Also, unlike the Prairie she never stalled.

She is,however, very highly geared. The default top speed must be astronomic. I set the the Cv 5, max speed voltage, at 90 which gives a scale 28mph with a Pannier and the top speed was 42mph.

After some adjustments the crawling speed is spectacular:



It takes over 30 minutes to cover 6' at Step 1…..talk about watching paint dry.

Its still not as smooth as I would like…..its quite jerky from 2 to 3 and 4 to 5. I suspect there is one of the more subtle Zimo Cv settings

Some users have not been as fortunate as I and have reported consistent stalling/catching. The problem seems to arise from the Motion bracket:

 


Its secured to the underside of the footplate by a narrow, small relatively shallow pin. If this gets dislodged the bracket gets mis-aligned and the loco jams. I discovered this the hard way by inadvertently coupling the Mogul to a rake of coaches that were already firmly moored to a Castle…..and then being impatient and applying too much wellie…..and the bracket popped. Fortunately I was able to press it back into position and all is well again……but its registered as a possible issue for the future 

The tender coupling is different:



No hooks or trailing wires. Contact is by way of a piece of PCB that slides and clicks into place in a recess under the loco's fall plate



The PCB contains 2 circuits  ….Tender pick ups to the decoder and wires from the decoder to hook up an optional larger speakers in the tender.

The coupling system works exactly as described…..very crisp and straightforward. The contrast with handling this loco+tender compared with a Bachmann Collett is marked. Slight note of caution…..one does wonder whether, over time, the PCB might become worn? I dont think I will be separating the pair too often.

Lot of nice detail on the tender. Dont believe I have seen a retaining board modelled before.



 
The coal load, which is unusually realistic is easily removeable:




I guess this is the last time you will see the loco looking like this:


There was a reason they were known as Mucky Moguls…….so a Shirt Button livery in 1948 will require a fair amount of weathering plus Crew, Fire Irons, Lamps and Coal…….and I must remember to change the buffer beam numbers!

I worry a little about the motion bracket and the longevity of the tender coupling other than that I am more than content. Bodes well for the Manor and I do hope Dapol will be encouraged to persevere with their Prairie.

Best wishes from Vancouver.

Edited…..Corrected Zimo decoder#

Nice review of a very good looking loco. Hope it continues to run nicely for you.
I look forward to seeing it again once you've added/weathered.

Chris 

  I knew your review would be good John and it is, including the useful historical information and the sheer numbers on shed nearby to Granby. I too, like the timber coal board keeping things in order on the tender and predict it will be modelled more often, as soon as modellers have that ‘’doh, why didn’t I think of that’’ moment and add them to their models.
 
I haven’t coupled the tender and loco yet, not having read the instructions (compulsory for all men, if in doubt, read the manual) and wonder how much this design limits the maximum load. I imagine the Manor will be similar, except perhaps for the motion bracket, which seems to cause issues for those ambitious enough to remove the body from chassis, as I understand the motion bracket retaining pin is fitted to the body. Interesting, but perhaps not so sensible!
 
Have fun with the weathering process. Do you keep a ready pot of ‘Granby Grime’ and the workbench and if so, what’s the reference number to look out for in the model shops?
 
I suppose the Manor will be here in the spring and as I’ve been writing this, Hattons have notified me that Heljan’s GWR railcars will be here before March and then if the Prairie also turns up, next year will be quite taxing on the brownie points for GWR modellers.
 
Best,
 
Bill

It does look to be an excellent, very well detailed model John.

What a brilliant way of fitting a decoder - I wonder if this is the shape of things to come or are we still going to have to fight the war of the worlds when it comes to finding a space to squeeze them into an all-too small boiler ?  I wonder if the system only works with a Next18 decoder - these seem to be Bachmann's decoder of choice at present ?

I too would worry slightly about that friction fit tender connection ………….  How much force was required to couple/uncouple the two ?  Whilst wear would probably be less of a worry - after all, how often would you actually want to separate the two ?  My concern would be more around the weight of the train relying on the friction ………..

As rolling roads have been a topic of my recent converstaions, you'll need a full compliment of rollers given that the tender wheels also have pickups …………….do you have enough ?

I suppose it's based on popularity but the GWR appears to be very well served by the manufacturers just now - unlike the poor LNER where, unless it's a big Gresley main liner, "you're on your own Matey" ………………
 
Like both Chris and Bill,  I too am looking forward to seeing it after you've worked your grubby kind of magic on her ………….  ;-)

Great review John,

regarding the DCC location and chip, where does that leave you regarding adding a Stay Alive? The Zimo M617 you've used is described by ZIMO as a "sub-miniature" decoder, mainly for N gauge and if I recall correctly has no pin connections for a Stay Alive. Relevant if you want sound in your Mogul and don't want any unexpected project resets from dirt on the track.

This was a fatal flaw in the Dapol Terrier design from my POV. The location of the NEXT 18 socket and lack of provision for adding a stay alive ruling out an appearance on W-H. 

A super review John, and smart pictures to go with it.  Interesting developments from Dapol in terms of decoder fitting.  I wonder if other manufacturers will follow suit?
It certainly looks a good model - even if the "wrong" colour green ( I can say that now I have learned about the "greens"!) and will add another eye-catching feature to the already eye-catching Granby.  I still haven't plucked up the courage to weather any of my working stock, but I will get to it!

Michael

[user=2170]Colin W[/user] wrote:

Great review John,

regarding the DCC location and chip, where does that leave you regarding adding a Stay Alive? The Zimo M617 you've used is described by ZIMO as a "sub-miniature" decoder, mainly for N gauge and if I recall correctly has no pin connections for a Stay Alive. Relevant if you want sound in your Mogul and don't want any unexpected project resets from dirt on the track.

This was a fatal flaw in the Dapol Terrier design from my POV. The location of the NEXT 18 socket and lack of provision for adding a stay alive ruling out an appearance on W-H. 

 

Not so bad Colin,
If the decoder is placed with the connections to the right, a row of six solder pads are seen on the left hand edge. The top four are FO's 1 thru 4 starting at the top. The bottom two are the ones for common positive (5) and ground (6).

[user=1120]peterm[/user] wrote:

[user=2170]Colin W[/user] wrote:

Great review John,

regarding the DCC location and chip, where does that leave you regarding adding a Stay Alive? The Zimo M617 you've used is described by ZIMO as a "sub-miniature" decoder, mainly for N gauge and if I recall correctly has no pin connections for a Stay Alive. Relevant if you want sound in your Mogul and don't want any unexpected project resets from dirt on the track.

Not so bad Colin,
If the decoder is placed with the connections to the right, a row of six solder pads are seen on the left hand edge. The top four are FO's 1 thru 4 starting at the top. The bottom two are the ones for common positive (5) and ground (6).

Agreed, there are pads to wire directly to the chip, I've done that on an MX622 successfully but here you need to address the issue of the socket being fixed inside the boiler and the extra wires will need to get past that obstacle to somewhere behind where the SA components can be positioned.

It was exactly this issue of the restricted location of the Dapol Terrier NEXT socket which ruled out wiring in a stay alive (or so I was advised by someone in the Trade)

[user=2170]Colin W[/user] wrote:

Great review John,

regarding the DCC location and chip, where does that leave you regarding adding a Stay Alive? The Zimo M617 you've used is described by ZIMO as a "sub-miniature" decoder, mainly for N gauge and if I recall correctly has no pin connections for a Stay Alive. Relevant if you want sound in your Mogul and don't want any unexpected project resets from dirt on the track.

This was a fatal flaw in the Dapol Terrier design from my POV. The location of the NEXT 18 socket and lack of provision for adding a stay alive ruling out an appearance on W-H. 

Thanks Colin…..glad you liked it.

The decoder I used on the Mogul is not a Zimo 617…..my error I am afraid …now corrected. It is a Zimo 618N18. You are correct this decoder, unlike the 6 pin/wire 617 does not support the installation of SAs unless "the model provides connections" which I dont believe the Mogul does.

The installation procedure is indeed innovative but its also inflexible. In this case I wasnt too concerned about the lack of SA. I dont do sound although I demand a high level of reliability for RR&Co…….generally I dont have a problems with 6 wheel pick ups on both loco and tender. That has certainly been the case with the Mogul (the sprung centre axle helps) I dont believe it has hesitated once…..super runner.

If I absolutely had to have SA I would hardwire a decoder (probably a 617) and put it and a SA in the tender.

Regarding the 617……I hadnt realised it was described as a "sub miniature" ……more like the mighty mouse. They are my decoder of choice…..as Peter says they do have SA capability …..I get John Gymer at Youchoos to solder the +ve and -ve SA wires for me and then I hardwire them into all manner of locos……I guess I have done well over a dozen this past year…..mostly small tanks but some tender locos and the large prairies

Sorry about the confusion with the decoder numbers

Best wishes

Thanks Chris glad you like it……..you may have to be patient with the weathering….the jobs keep piling up and there is a suggestion of festivities shortly (and no modelling!! :It's a no no)

Keep well


[user=1814]Longchap[/user] wrote:

I haven’t coupled the tender and loco yet, not having read the instructions (compulsory for all men, if in doubt, read the manual) and wonder how much this design limits the maximum load. I imagine the Manor will be similar, except perhaps for the motion bracket, which seems to cause issues for those ambitious enough to remove the body from chassis, as I understand the motion bracket retaining pin is fitted to the body. Interesting, but perhaps not so sensible!

Have fun with the weathering process. Do you keep a ready pot of ‘Granby Grime’ and the workbench and if so, what’s the reference number to look out for in the model shops?
 

 I suppose the Manor will be here in the spring and as I’ve been writing this, Hattons have notified me that Heljan’s GWR railcars will be here before March and then if the Prairie also turns up, next year will be quite taxing on the brownie points for GWR modellers.

Best,

Bill

Its certainly a different way of securing the motion bracket :roll: Problems of mis alighnment and subsequent catching are not dependent on removing the body…..I know thats what happened with Checkrail but there have been a  number of other comments……..I am keeping a very careful eye on mine. Its bizarre in a way….the loco is running perfectly….an absolute delight…..and I sit worrying, waiting for something to go wrong!

GWR models seem to come like London Buses…..feast or famine. Its been quite an expensive years so far and there is more to come. There is a persistent rumour about another significant announcement yet to be made

Keeps life interesting!

Keep well
.

[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:

It does look to be an excellent, very well detailed model John.

What a brilliant way of fitting a decoder - I wonder if this is the shape of things to come or are we still going to have to fight the war of the worlds when it comes to finding a space to squeeze them into an all-too small boiler ?  I wonder if the system only works with a Next18 decoder - these seem to be Bachmann's decoder of choice at present ?

I too would worry slightly about that friction fit tender connection ………….  How much force was required to couple/uncouple the two ?  Whilst wear would probably be less of a worry - after all, how often would you actually want to separate the two ?  My concern would be more around the weight of the train relying on the friction ………..

As rolling roads have been a topic of my recent converstaions, you'll need a full compliment of rollers given that the tender wheels also have pickups …………….do you have enough ?

I suppose it's based on popularity but the GWR appears to be very well served by the manufacturers just now - unlike the poor LNER where, unless it's a big Gresley main liner, "you're on your own Matey" ………………

Like both Chris and Bill,  I too am looking forward to seeing it after you've worked your grubby kind of magic on her ………….  ;-)

Hi Peter

Glad like the Mogul……its certainly growing on me!

As you can see from my conversation with Colin there are pros and cons about the decoder fitting…..yes it was incredibly quick and easy but it is restrictive. As it happens This loco looks as though its a great runner and doesnt need stay alive but if I fitted sound (:shock:) what happens on the turntable for instance? Its becoming apparent that Dapol are actively discouraging modellers from removing the body…..breach of warranty…..not too impressed with that.

I have a very basic set of 4 rollers that I got through Pete (Wogga) …….I just ran the loco before I coupled the tender.

The tender coupling is very efficinet…..the pcb slides easily into the slot in the loco…..you push the tender firmly and there is a nice click and all is secure. I havent done a lot of haulage tests but so far there is no evidence of involuntary uncoupling……but like you I worry a little…..6 carriages on a curve and a gradient??? Not sure!

As I said to Bill…..GWR releases are a bit like London Buses……for a while there seemed to be nothing but LNER and Southern locos …..now the pendulum has swung back and the releases are coming thick and fast………..the Mogul and Manor were an open goal ….I guess Bachmann UK had too many issues with the parent company and promised upgrades got pushed back

Keep well

John

[user=1512] Headmaster[/user] wrote:

A super review John, and smart pictures to go with it.  Interesting developments from Dapol in terms of decoder fitting.  I wonder if other manufacturers will follow suit?
It certainly looks a good model - even if the "wrong" colour green ( I can say that now I have learned about the "greens"!) and will add another eye-catching feature to the already eye-catching Granby.  I still haven't plucked up the courage to weather any of my working stock, but I will get to it!

Michael

……… Wrong colour……what can you mean? I get enough flack from Peter and his liking for Apple Green without being ambushed by the Malachite brigade :lol:

It took me 5 or 6 years before I started weathering myon loco snd even then it was with a great deal of trepidation. Its not to everybody's taste and doesnt do anything positive for there re-sale value. However having taken the plunge is does look right for Granby……dont think its quite so important for your bucolic setting!

Best wishes

John

And there's me thinking it should be blue  

[user=2170]Colin W[/user] wrote:

[user=1120]peterm[/user] wrote:

[user=2170]Colin W[/user] wrote:

Great review John,

regarding the DCC location and chip, where does that leave you regarding adding a Stay Alive? The Zimo M617 you've used is described by ZIMO as a "sub-miniature" decoder, mainly for N gauge and if I recall correctly has no pin connections for a Stay Alive. Relevant if you want sound in your Mogul and don't want any unexpected project resets from dirt on the track.

Not so bad Colin,
If the decoder is placed with the connections to the right, a row of six solder pads are seen on the left hand edge. The top four are FO's 1 thru 4 starting at the top. The bottom two are the ones for common positive (5) and ground (6).

Agreed, there are pads to wire directly to the chip, I've done that on an MX622 successfully but here you need to address the issue of the socket being fixed inside the boiler and the extra wires will need to get past that obstacle to somewhere behind where the SA components can be positioned.

It was exactly this issue of the restricted location of the Dapol Terrier NEXT socket which ruled out wiring in a stay alive (or so I was advised by someone in the Trade)

 

Hi Colin,

I did wonder about the space issue for wiring but as much as it's a nice looking mogul, I wonder why they've made it so innovative that people blanch at taking the body off if they want to fit a stay alive to ensure no hiccups with sound.

I think a way to do it would be found, but at the expense of the warranty.