A layout in progress, slow progress...

Apologies for the delay Peter

 â€“ glad you’re enjoying my ramblings, still getting over the shock that you could think that I, as a fully paid up Luddite, could have anything as advanced as CCTV! I simply use my standard procedure when there is a derailment on the lower levels… first, and most important, count slowly from 1 to 20 (50 in serious cases) and then attempt to sort out the problem. Usually that starts with moving all the stuff stored under the layout at the location of the derailment. Yes, for certain parts of the layout access is a bit tight, to say the least…. but with suitable contortions, and my relatively small hands and skinny arms, I can actually get at most parts when needed. I have referred before to the tracks at the entrance to the fiddle yard behind the turntable as being ‘difficult’ to get at… but not quite  impossible. At both ends of the layout I can get access to the low level tracks from behind the baseboards as the lower baseboards do not continue back to the loft ceiling. Must admit recently I’ve had a few fraught sessions when things have derailed in awkward places in the fiddle yard – probably time to fire up the trusty Dapol track cleaner to hoover up any debris (bodies) on the track, which could be causing it, and give the track a good clean. I’ve been looking for an angle to get a picture showing the three levels on the layout – this is the best I can manage.



The board above the tunnel mouths is about 0.5” above Woodside station, top level – (this board is covering the rising main line which exits from underneath Woodside), middle level (Hooton Station) – just below the track level of the left tunnel mouth and the fiddle yard level is visible on the right. The north end of the fiddle yard is easy to access… when my workbench is tidy. Rolling stock may help to get a feel for how much room there is/isn’t.

Yes, they are Eckon lights, gas light and electric yard lamps bought them back in 2010, and at that time they were fitted with standard 12V bulbs, possibly later versions would have leds which would need resistors. I’m not really qualified to answer definitively. I’ve used Eckon for the odd colour light signals on the layout, the early examples were 12v, later examples used leds. I do like the Eckon lights/signals, but for a while they were hard to find, and so I bought a couple of three aspect Train-Tech examples – for the remaining two tunnel mouths, where w-i-t semaphores would be difficult to fit, so I can then use the amber to indicate whether a train needs watching or can be left to stop automatically – as I mentioned last time. Just made up one couple of days ago… they are a bit fiddly, well a lot fiddly with my hands anyway, but managed it, sort of



…will look better with painting. I was going to use 2 aspect versions for Woodside’s temporary signals, but now I’m not sure – a thin pcb which has the leds fitted to it runs inside the post so that wires can be soldered to tags at the base – could prove difficult in some places…. because of clearance to tracks beneath. I did find Eckon products on the Online Models website, which appears to stock everything, the website is there, but the price list dates from 2017, it doesn’t look like they are trading. Other dealers do have some limited stocks of Eckon/Berko products, I’m not sure of the current status of Eckon/Berko, but I’m sure someone out there does.

Keith

  S’mae Dave

  Signals are never off topic! I did actually buy some of the Ratio disc signals, and yes, I do think it is just about on to mount the disc on the body, first drilling through a hole to take a track pin, or similar, and another small hole to take the operating wire under the baseboard. All sounds possible, but I’d need to be in the mood for such an exercise…. there again after my recent efforts with the Train-Tech signal I’m having some doubts if these fingers are up to it. I’ll leave the addition of a light to you, I’d be happy with just seeing the disc move. Look forward to seeing how you get on – no doubt long before I produce anything.

  Cofion

  Keith

S'mae Bill

Many thanks for that, no I hadn’t seen it before, I must confess that I rarely look at youtube, perhaps that may have to change – brought back so many memories. That shot looking out from the far platform – the bus parked the other side of the wall could well have had me and my mum on the top deck on our way to Loggerheads. I do have, in a box somewhere of course, a model of a Crosville double decker of the period which will eventually appear behind the wall on the layout.

Hopefully everybody can see that I have tried to get at least the right feel to my version of Woodside, apart from the actual station building, which I had to move to the side to allow for longer platforms, and the width of those platforms…… no chance of modelling that width either!

Cofion

Keith

Thanks for all the info Keith - reassuring to know you are still an 18th Century person …………….. :thumbs

I'll try to keep my gradients as shallow as is practical but don't really want to have to carry out too many acrobatics retrieving derailments - I think my joints must need a different type of oil …………………… :roll: :roll:

I had a play with a 9v battery on my lights after reading your post.  A couple of them are indeed, a straight 12v because they worked on the 9v.  A couple of other, very tall, yard lamps which I think, had been soldered to the rails, didn't work so either they've blown or they do need something closer to track power.  I couldn't access underneath  that part of the layout so not sure what is under there until I pull out some storage drawers (which, sod's law, also support the layout !!)

Interesting comments too about your coloured light signals.  I've removed 4 or 5 Train Tech signals from the layout.  Not sure yet if I'll re-fit them after I've messed with the track or sell them on …………….  I'm also a Luddite in that I much prefer semaphores ………………….

This recent spell of seriously hot weather, resulting in the loft being somewhat warm, put a stop to any work on the railway…. so time to get on with some outside jobs… mutter, mutter….

Glad you think I’m as advanced as the 18^th Century Peter – sometimes I think I’d be more at home with a lump of rock and a stone chisel! There’s a bit of Luddite in most folk, some are just more successful at hiding it.

I reckon the knack with gradients is to try to get at least some of the climb under cover so that the overall gradient is reduced. Don't know about oil, my joints have progressed to the hammer and spanner stage. I would have thought those other lights would at least glow with a 9V battery so I’d be planning to fit new bulbs/leds. I’m only fitting colour light signals where semaphores would be difficult to access for fitting and/or adjusting. The plan is to eventually have Woodside Station with semaphores, operated by w-i-t to a bank of levers at the yet to be constructed signal box, but for now colour lights are relatively easy to fit, and at least they are signals… the layout has to have working signals.

On the supplier front, I noticed that Rails do have (in stock or to order) a good selection of the Eckon signal range, so I ordered some two aspect for Woodside Station and a three aspect for the first tunnel entrance on the main line – no problems with just wires to sort out under the baseboard, particularly at that tunnel mouth where space is limited. Although the three aspect was shown as order upon request, everything arrived within three days of ordering. The Train Tech examples I already have will find a use as spares and in other locations, eventually.

And now the good weather is at an end…. what a shame…..!!

Keith
 

Right, about time I produced a progress report – well more like a lack of progress report, mainly down to the dreaded malfunctioning mojo.  Also a lot of thinking about these colour light signals, but not much to show for it. I did finally get some paint on the Train-Tech signal, and with all the bits added it has improved the look of it, so I’m happy for now.



I’m sure there are lots of folk out there who have used these Train-Tech signals…. I had real problems extracting the loop handrail from the sprue. No matter which section of the sprue I cut first, I always ended up with the loop in two pieces.  After collecting five half loops, the location of the sixth remains a mystery, I resorted to glueing a couple for the signal. The instructions mention that they use ABS, which is ‘slightly more forgiving and less brittle than the polystyrene often used for plastic kits’, personally I wished they had stayed with the polystrene. OK, arthritis in the fingers doesn’t help, but I’ve not had this problem before.

The thinking has been centred on the switching for this signal and a similar one on the up line at the entrance to the tunnel leading to the loops under Woodside. I have got a couple of three position levers from Eckon which was my first choice – but when it came to finding somewhere suitable to put them on my switch-laden vertical control panels problems started to appear. They would extend well beyond anything else, and so would be prime candidates for being ‘disturbed’ in the chaos of an operating session, and the wires would be visible on the front of the panel. I’m not bothered about the tangled mass of wires behind the panel, but wires showing on the front of the panel – not good. In the end, well for now, I’ve decided to use a SPDT c/o switch for the red/green, together with a simple SPST switch for the amber. The two switches will fit quite neatly on the existing panel, and hopefully with a bit of practice you won’t see any tell-tale delay as the signal changes…. perhaps with quite a lot of practice. So now it is just a matter of swapping the Dapol semaphore for the three aspect – which will certainly not improve the look of the layout, but will add to the operation of it. The Dapol signal will just transfer across to the up line to replace the two aspect colour light signal, which will then, eventually, reappear on Woodside station. Musical signals if you like. So that is the decision after all that deliberating, now it is just a case of getting on with it.

Meanwhile with the hot weather just a distant memory, the trains have been running again, recommended therapy for that malfunctioning mojo.  An unusual sight at the still very congested Woodside Station I was banging on about at the end of April, a perfect illustration of just how slow things have been progressing in the loft, as a Standard 4 arrives in platform 1, normally the home of the Helsby/Hooton services, with the 14.37 semi-fast from Chester.



Platform 1 is the only platform available, having been vacated by the 14.15 to Helsby which had the two extra coaches for the Hooton – Rock Ferry peak time additional service.  In Platform 3 the Station Pilot has detached the parcels van from the 14.05 arrival TC from Barmouth, and will transfer it to platform 5 for unloading as soon as the English Electric type 1 leaves with the 14.38 parcels to Crewe, closely followed by the Fairburn in platform 4 with the 14.40 to Paddington.

There is a definite surplus of rolling stock at Woodside just now, and a fiddle yard with an abundance of space – it may well be that an empty stock working to Chester may be needed to sort things out, if things don’t improve pdq – that said the reverse was true not that long ago

Keith

Super post Keith. I love reading about all the stock movements and departures to the same places I use on Granby.The difference being you are using a real timetable and mine is very fictional. I often wish I had selected a real location.
I sympathise with your signal problem. Mature layouts like ours that have evolved over time inevitably have wiring that would horrify a purist. My late brother in law was an electrician……I will never forget the look on his face when he saw Granby II s switchboard.

Glad the mojo is returning

Best wishes

John

Keith, John.

I think we can all sympathise regarding the horrendous examples of wiring "behind the scenes" - and my layout is certainly no exception. And I used to be in electronics pre-retirement! So I've got no excuse for my miles of spaghetti straggled about the place. I think the secret is to keep meticulous notes as to the colour of each wire and where it comes from, where it goes to and what it's purpose is. Even then, in my book at least, it's not foolproof. After a couple of modifications to said wiring and more notes made it can be difficult to say which set of notes is current. But, so long as it all works, we'll worry about it when it stops working.

Nice paint job on the colour signal by the way Keith. Not used Train-Tech myself but certainly looks the part. Interesting method of operating it though.  Mine is only a small layout and these trains need a close eye kept on them - they do have a tendency to have a mind of their own at times. My preference as far as signals are concerned, as possibly mentioned before, is for me to concentrate on driving the trains without the need to worry about the hassle of operating the signals as well. Each to our own: you enjoy running to a timetable - I just run trains (maybe a timetable will follow in due course - but that's #78 on the to do list) and enjoy watching the trains roll round and the lights changing aspects appropriately.

I can sympathise with regard to the hot weather and your loft - it's bad enough in my spare room - can't reach the window to open it for fresh air - so I just give it all a break for a few hours till times cool down. And like you, my mojo went on holiday about the same time as lockdown kicked in. It's only just started to think about returning. One day, one day.

Thanks John, I’m always looking at Granby and thinking to myself… will I ever get my layout looking even vaguely like that? ….. same answer every time, something about a million years!

 A while back you featured a milk train from Granby, bound for Birkenhead, at the time I thought I could have that arriving here…. only a matter of 15ish years between the layouts, no reason why it wouldn’t continue running after Nationalisation.  I did buy a couple of boxes of milk wagons way back, a special offer at Hattons – can’t resist a special offer, just so long as there’s a possibility, however small, of it having appeared in the real Birkenhead area. They are in a box somewhere, just a matter of finding them. What freight there is on the layout is all a product of my imagination, and just the tiniest fraction of the original, so why not? I noted down the timings on a piece of paper, and put it in a safe place…. fatal mistake – the loft is full of safe places, just can’t remember where any of them are. So, when you have a spare minute could you please let me have the timings? I can’t model the arrival site now, but I thought after arriving with full wagons, at a processing plant south of Rock Ferry, the engine picks up yesterday’s flushed out (or whatever they do) empties, and continues on to Woodside marshalling yard to leave the stock, yard pilots to put the guards van at the right end, while the engine goes up to 6C to be turned, fed and watered ready for the return trip to Granby. That sounds plausible?

Incidentally I dread to think what your late brother in law would say if he saw what goes on behind any of my control panels….

Keith

  Yes Dave, remembering what my wiring looked like on my last layout way back in the 60s I decided to really make an effort this time and colour code everything, so it would be easy to trace wires through the jungle behind the panels. I even started labelling groups of wires – for me, very organised. It was only much later when I started to get the odd ‘problem’ that I found that I hadn’t kept to quite the same colour scheme on each level…. The fiddle yard wasn’t quite the same as Woodside station, but at least the labelling helped. I’m afraid making notes wouldn’t work for me – I’d never remember where I put them.

  Yes, we are all different, which is how it should be. I’ve already had an idea about fitting the Eckon levers so that only the upper part of the lever is visible, but it will mean some major changes to the adjacent panels, one for the pending tray. The two switch solution will have to do for now. Woodside really needs a couple of competent operators ( I don’t come even close to competent) because it is all short runs between the levels and shunting in the various yards/sheds, but there is something going on at all times..… at least there should be. One day I’ll get the hang of it.

  I think you are right about the lockdown effect – took the system a long time to get used to effectively being housebound, but recently it has started to feel  more like the ‘norm’… so possibly things are now returning to the new normal.

  Keith

All this talk of tidy wiring makes me shudder when I think about some areas below my boards.  

I too have similar  nightmares about my teenage attempts at wiring and vowed to make notes and have proper routing for the various cable types this time around  - then I started building a layout !!

I'm quite proud of little bits  of it - so much so that I've even allowed it to be shown on here.  The rest is an extension of my liking of jigsaw puzzles …..    Much of it is colour coded.  Unfortunately, I haven't managed to crack the code yet …….

[user=1798]Woodside[/user] wrote:

Thanks John, I’m always looking at Granby and thinking to myself… will I ever get my layout looking even vaguely like that? ….. same answer every time, something about a million years!

 A while back you featured a milk train from Granby, bound for Birkenhead, at the time I thought I could have that arriving here…. only a matter of 15ish years between the layouts, no reason why it wouldn’t continue running after Nationalisation.  I did buy a couple of boxes of milk wagons way back, a special offer at Hattons – can’t resist a special offer, just so long as there’s a possibility, however small, of it having appeared in the real Birkenhead area. They are in a box somewhere, just a matter of finding them. What freight there is on the layout is all a product of my imagination, and just the tiniest fraction of the original, so why not? I noted down the timings on a piece of paper, and put it in a safe place…. fatal mistake – the loft is full of safe places, just can’t remember where any of them are. So, when you have a spare minute could you please let me have the timings? I can’t model the arrival site now, but I thought after arriving with full wagons, at a processing plant south of Rock Ferry, the engine picks up yesterday’s flushed out (or whatever they do) empties, and continues on to Woodside marshalling yard to leave the stock, yard pilots to put the guards van at the right end, while the engine goes up to 6C to be turned, fed and watered ready for the return trip to Granby. That sounds plausible?

Incidentally I dread to think what your late brother in law would say if he saw what goes on behind any of my control panels….

Keith

Hi Keith

I still havent set up a proper Timetable but I had visualised the Milk Train arriving at Granby from Shrewsbury between 2 and 2.30 Pm where it picked up two more tankers which had been worked up from the branch. The branch timing involved collecting and processing milk from churns picked up by a siphon attached to the branch autotrain.

Petermac who has knowledge of these things confirmed that the timings were not unrealistic.

I had the Milk train arriving at Hooton (Rock Ferry is probably better) about 45 minutes after leaving Granby…….after allowing time for unloading and re marshalling I had it leaving Hooton with the empties at 6 pm (avoiding rush hour). Arriving at Granby at 6.45 where it dropped off two empties to be worked down to the branch dairy. The dairy has a steam wash plant so in my scenario the tankers are washed there.

The only other difference is that instead of a Toad I have a Passenger Brake Van. I believe this was the general practice in my period. PBVs did not have to be at end of the train….there was a stipulated number of tankers that could be behind it. This makes picking up and dropping off operation much easier.

Hope this helps……do let me know the timings and locos etc that you decide on….I will definitely settle for whatever destination you choose…..I have always enjoyed having trains virtually travelling between layouts!

Best wishes

John

 All sounds very familiar Peter, if anyone ever comments on my wiring I always use the excuse ‘well at least I know what is going on’ – I don’t, but I can sound quite convincing. As far as colour coding I did start with good intentions, just forgot to make a note of the code. Here is a typical example


 
… this is what lurks beneath the south end Hooton Station, one of the tidier areas!! Can’t see anyone having anything as bad as this.

At least I know what’s going on…… some of the time.

Keith

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S’mae John

Those timings would fit quite well – just coming up to 3pm on the layout now… so could have the milk train passing through Hooton around 3.15 to 3.30, arriving at the processing plant near Rock Ferry some 15 minutes later. I have no idea how things worked, but given I don’t have the space in the loops under Woodside to hold the wagons for a realistic time, particularly with the rush hour starting around 4.45, I will have to use the leave full, take away empties procedure, with the engine and ‘empties’ (which will bear a striking resemblance to the full wagons) arriving in the marshalling yard around 4.00 to 4.15. That would give the engine plenty of time to visit 6C, while the rush hour takes over everything on the layout for around 90 minutes. The empties then return to Granby/Shrewsbury sometime around 7.00pm, arriving Granby around 8.00pm. That sounds reasonable to me… reasonable in this context means the best I can manage! As to motive power, given it has to be available here, probably a Shrewsbury Stanier 5 or 8F, Standard 5, or a Croes Newydd 2800.

I have actually remembered where I put the milk wagons,  that is a first, so I’ll give it a trial run, see how it goes, given it is 1961 I’ll just use a standard guards van. At my current rate of progress that will probably be in a month or two, but hopefully at least before Christmas we’ll have pictures of a rather long distance milk train at the Birkenhead end of the journey.

Keith

Keith, if you converted to DCC, it should only be two wires,  wouldn't it ?  

Yeah my DCC layout's only two wires, but I guess I'll have to go back to school and learn to count again because mine looks just like that.

The two yellow ones in the middle look right to me :)

[user=1798]Woodside[/user] wrote:

S’mae John

Those timings would fit quite well – just coming up to 3pm on the layout now… so could have the milk train passing through Hooton around 3.15 to 3.30, arriving at the processing plant near Rock Ferry some 15 minutes later. I have no idea how things worked, but given I don’t have the space in the loops under Woodside to hold the wagons for a realistic time, particularly with the rush hour starting around 4.45, I will have to use the leave full, take away empties procedure, with the engine and ‘empties’ (which will bear a striking resemblance to the full wagons) arriving in the marshalling yard around 4.00 to 4.15. That would give the engine plenty of time to visit 6C, while the rush hour takes over everything on the layout for around 90 minutes. The empties then return to Granby/Shrewsbury sometime around 7.00pm, arriving Granby around 8.00pm. That sounds reasonable to me… reasonable in this context means the best I can manage! As to motive power, given it has to be available here, probably a Shrewsbury Stanier 5 or 8F, Standard 5, or a Croes Newydd 2800.

I have actually remembered where I put the milk wagons,  that is a first, so I’ll give it a trial run, see how it goes, given it is 1961 I’ll just use a standard guards van. At my current rate of progress that will probably be in a month or two, but hopefully at least before Christmas we’ll have pictures of a rather long distance milk train at the Birkenhead end of the journey.

Keith

Hi Keith

Late autumn sounds perfect for me…..I have far too many unfinished projects right now!:oops:

Matching Locos may be a problem…..there may have to be an off scene change :roll: ………I have a Black 5, such a handsome loco, but sadly it isnt a very reliable runner.  I normally use Halls and Granges but if push comes to shove I guess I could reschedule my 28xx.

Hope you find your tankers soon…..they are kind of important:lol:

Best wishes


John

Don’t be silly Ron, me convert to DCC??!!  We gave up our computing careers back in ’85 when we headed off to Mull and life no. 2 – and now in Wales when I returned to this wonderful hobby of ours, I decided that DCC, the additional costs and the thought of programming things was most definitely not for me. Even if I had ignored all that, and gone for DCC, rest assured I’d still have managed to produce knitting quite similar to that in the picture.

=======

Pete, music to my ears! Why use just two wires when you can use… lots.

=======

You’ve got me at it now Phil, couldn’t remember what the yellow wires were used for, so I traced them back to … returns from point motors at Hooton Station. However closer inspection of Woodside Station revealed that on that board the three point motor returns (most points here are/will be w-i-t) are pink. So much for colour coding, really should have written down something ….

=========

John, don’t know about unfinished projects, I’ve got plenty of ‘not yet started’ ones too!

Just now I do have a Hall in the fiddle yard ‘shed’ – worked the 7.30am Wrexham to Woodside, and returned with the 10.25 s/f to Chester. Just about time for it to get back to Shrewsbury to work the milk train to Rock Ferry – pushing it a bit, but it’ll do – and it gives the Hall another run. So the milk train can set off behind a Hall, no problem. At this end it will be 4962 Ragley Hall, currently a Reading engine, fine for freights from the London area to Birkenhead, which from time to time produced a Hall on 6C, but from Shrewsbury it really should be an 84G engine, but we’ll gloss over that for now. Much to my amazement the milk wagons were precisely where I thought, that very rarely happens in the loft, so the milk train will make an appearance …. in the not too distant future, just to make sure it fits into the timetable – which is spookily at just about the right time for the milk train to appear at Hooton. I’ll be able to check that it doesn’t cause any scheduling problems – if it does we may have to adjust the time difference between Vancouver and the UK - or just settle for pictures at each location.

Much rather be sorting out this than getting on with the jobs I should be doing!

===========

 
Keith
 

Hi Keith,
I can sympathize with anybody who has made a significant investment in DC (size of layout and number of locomotives) and where there is a significant investment in block control. DCC wiring is still basically the same as DC wiring, especially if power districts (the equivalent of blocks) are thrown into the mix. That said, a cheap decoder will outperform an expensive PWM DC controller.

DCC is not about wiring simplicity (I don't know where that came from, it's as bad as DC) or programming ability, or even sound  (which can be done in DC anyway if you really want it), it's about  operational efficiency. And you have identified one of the drawbacks of  DC when it comes to double heading or banking and trying to match motor  efficiencies and output. DCC gets around that by tweaking the decoder  motor control, not the motor. The easiest  way to double head DC is for  one locomotive be motorless.

Nigel

S’mae Nigel

Yes, the cost was an important factor when I restarted. At the time I couldn’t see any real advantage in DCC for what I wanted to do in terms of operating the layout – I’d managed with lots of switches back in the 60s, so I’d manage again. Also the idea was to have enough engines to run the timetable properly, and at 2008 prices it roughly worked out for every five DCC locos I could buy six DC – so DC it was, I can live without the ‘extras’ which DCC provides. Must admit that I’ve yet to hear a loco with ‘sound’ that sounds anything like the real thing, to me they all sound just a bit ‘tinny’, probably down to the size of the speaker, particularly the bass speaker – if they have such a thing, and simply not worth the trouble. It would be better if DCC could link the loco to a proper sound system playing recordings of the original through some decent speakers. As ever, at the end of the day, each to his/her own.

Thanks for clearing up the wiring question – given what you say had I gone for DCC my wiring would almost certainly look like it does now. The question of double heading doesn’t really apply on Woodside, all freights are restricted to around 11 wagons (can’t replicate anything like the actual freight traffic on the line) and the longest passenger service, the London sleeper, is only six coaches (Woodside platforms 3 & 4 can comfortably manage six coaches). I tend to trim one coach from the original for most services, and more on the peak time Helsby services.  I’ve mentioned before some of the earlier Bachmann models I have are not the best performers on a gradient, so they tend to work heavy trains heading south and light trains bound for Birkenhead.

Keith