Petermac's Railway

[user=6]Petermac[/user] wrote:

Many thanks indeed John - I habn't thought of looking on RmWeb and his thread on here didn't go into such detail.

I'll certainly see if there is a similar product available here - like you, importation from UK is somewhat of a minefield here since Brexit.  The "everyday" wood dye here is from the Liberon range but I have no idea if they are water or spirit based.

Again, many thanks for digging this up for me and, to all those I suggested Allan used fireclay and not plasticard for his stonework - my apologies, I stand well and truly corrected !

I think we're both mixing Allan up with someone else Peter. I definitely remember someone using fireclay and there was even someone using 'GunGum' which used to be used to patch up leaky exhausts. So you're not alone; we'll both go and stand in the dunces corner.  :)

For Fire cement & coloured https://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=10893&forum_id=21&highlight=fireclay#p193890

and
https://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=14006&forum_id=14&highlight=fireclay#p253684

Thanks for those Sol - I'm going to try to follow Allan Downes method - let's see if I can surpass his amateur efforts ………………………..

Having read John's post from RMWeb, I just had to see if I could find a substitute for Colron wood dye which is not only unavailable here, being a "noxious substance", I suspect importing it from UK would not be an option.

We have a large DIY chain called Tridome here and I found this:



 As cleaning is by "alcohol brulee" (the French version of methylated spirits), I'm assuming it's spirit based so I'll see what happens.

It's also avbailable in most, if not all the French DIY stores - Mr Bricolage, Bricomarché Castorama etc. etc.
 
I'm trying to replicate retaining walls built with York stone which, in its fresh, clean state is a sort of ginger khaki colour so went with "medium oak" rather than Allan's "light oak".

Watch this space ………………………. :hmm

I am very interested to see how this works for you. I am struggling here.You can get Liberon Water based Dye but no spirit based dyes……..its beginning to look as though Canada thinks its a "noxious substance" that we cant be trusted to handle!

For Allan's technique to work I am sure it has to be spirit based

There may be some confusion over here between "dyes" and "stains" but again I am sure it has to be a dye (minute pigments)

I will keep trying    Apologies for cluttering your thread

Best wishes

Interesting comments regarding the difference between stain and dye John.

You are right in that it has to be spirit based - apparently water based stuff just runs off the plastic whereas the spirit based product will slightly "etch" itself into the surface.

I think the French word "teinte" could be either stain or dye.  Time will tell which I've bought……..   

Wood stain is "teinte du bois" and wood dye is "teinture du bois"  - how are we mere English speakers supposed to cope ?

Amazon.fr do list Colron wood dye on their site but it's "currently unavailable" - I'd gusss it's probably shipped direct from UK so maybe no longer viable for them, or even permitted.

Hi Peter,

Interesting that the website doesn't mention flammable risk which would be the norm for any solvent based product, even alcohol. Aren't there any clues on the side or back panels?

Easiest test is to shake up the tin and put a tiny drop in some clean water. Very few useful solvents are water miscible so if it floats its a Duck immiscible non-aqueous based product. If it disperses fully then it's a water or water/ alcohol dispersion or solution, this might leave the dye /pigment on the surface (or bottom) or a cloudy mixture.

Concerns over VOC emissions and hazards has seen some very clever formulation chemistry applied to wood-stains and dyes over the last 20 or so years. Very few Solvent based products remain these days but unfortunately they are probably what's needed to get pigment to adhere to polystyrene. Wood is much easier to treat because the carrier liquid can penetrate the colour into the pores.





 

A good point Colin and I'll try the ducking stool test.  ;-)

As you say, wood is much easier to dye/stain than plastic but the wood dye definitely has to be spirit based to etch itself into the plastic.

I'd just assumed it was spirit based because cleaning is by meths rather than water.  If it's the wrong stuff, that's over €16 down the proverbial unless anyone wants to stain some platform benches medium oak …………. :roll:

Hi Peter,

If it doesn't work as purchased, no need to give up without a try. If the product is alcohol based you can try blending in a very small amount of limonene to a sample, perhaps first dissolving some in meths then adding the mixture to better regulate the amount added.

Raise the amount of limonene added until it gently etches the plastic surface. Easily tested on some plain white PS sheet, add then wipe away after a brief period.

My guess is that a straight ethanol based dye/ pigmented product will barely touch the surface of PS sheet.

If you don't have limonene then you could use acetone or ethyl acetate based nail varnish or butanone as the additive. Any of these will mix with alcohol but will be more aggressive in their effect on PS. Hard to predict how much will be needed, case of trial and trial again.
 
(why do I think this might work? I made up a limonene / Ethanol mix 1:100 as a spray-on surface deodouriser and it starting dissolving the glue holding the item together - I've since gone back to using straight meths which doesn't!) 

If not alcohol based, the product advice suggests your 500ml should permit you to stain that battered old Armoire in your shed, every self respecting french property has one I'm told!

[user=2170]Colin W[/user] wrote:

Hi Peter,

If not alcohol based, the product advice suggests your 500ml should permit you to stain that battered old Armoire in your shed, every self respecting french property has one I'm told!

You are absoloutely right Colin, we all have one and here's ours at the back of the garage and there's a matching sideboard in an outbuilding with the wine press!



Bill
:cheers

I carried out a complicated scientific operation today in that I tried Colin's method of testing if my Liberon wood stain is water or spirit based.

I dribbled some stain into a bowl of clean tap water ……………………. ;-)
 
From the results, I'd guess it's spirit based - fortunately !!

Here's a link to the award winning documentary I made of the experiment :

https://youtu.be/NK9p1hMUcb8

A quick look on google at the msds confirmed its spirit based.

Hmm - thanks Ian - I didn't need to waste all that water afterall …………………. :hmm :cheers

Hi Peter,


Blame lax French attitudes :twisted: because first thing I did was look for the Safety Data info on the French Product website before penning my reply but could find virtually nothing about it there. Obviously the UK is much better organised in presenting those safety aspects.

The MSDS gives a lot of useful info.about the formulation - up to 75% of a mixture of water miscible alcohols -  ethyl and iso propyl alcohols (or Meths and IPA in english).

The rest are standard lower toxicity organic solvents with some water miscibility on their own but mixed with the alcohols they should disperse as seen from the video.

the residual on the surface of the water test will be the orange solvent dye. from the formulation its hard to judge if the solvent mixture designed for wood will be aggressive enough to dye a totally non-wettable (hydrophobic) surface, only trying it will answer that.

If it isn't then simply adding some acetone or ethyl acetate nail varnish remover should upgrade the solvent effect of the formulation on a PS surface to get the level of dye penetration you desire. It should be possible to calibrate this with some experimentation now you've earned your honorary white lab coat.

Will we have to address him as Dr Petermac?

Hi Dr Peter. Would you be interested in writing a paper on the subject?

[user=1120]peterm[/user] wrote:

Hi Dr Peter. Would you be interested in writing a paper on the subject?

Writing a paper ?  Good Heavens, paper's a bit old fashioned isn't it ?  I've moved on since those days and made a whole digital film demonstrating the theory ……………….  I'm planning to submit it towards my PhD  :cheers

[user=606]Sol[/user] wrote:

Will we have to address him as Dr Petermac

No need for that Sol - "Sir" will be quite adequate thank you ………… :cheers

Last night, I sloshed some of the wood stain on a couple of bits of spare Slaters 7mm scale stone walling to see if it would stick.

I'm very pleased with the results.  This is what it looks like this morning.  Raw, out of the packet sample on the left and on the right, 2 bits with a single coat of stain.  It's already heading in the right direction.  Next, a quick, oblique  aerosol spray of matt black acrylic before the talc …………….  Watch this space  ;-)

Very good  :doublethumb

Yup, looking dark and satanic from here  :thumbs

 Bill