Do I need a switch every time?

Hi Guys.  There's been a bit of a haitus at Ottersford but I will be updating that thread soon.  Baseboard building is all but finished, & tracklaying about to commence.  I'm using DCC control with Code 75 streamline & electrofog points.  Now reading the instructions, it says for DCC operation that the "wiring should be modified …… using Accessory Switch PL-13 or PL-15."  These switches are about £6 each, & as I have over 30 points this is going to be an expensive modification!  I went the electrofrog route as my understanding was that for DCC this was the best option, as isolated sections & dead sidings were not necessary. So my question to anybody else using a similar combination is - is this mod. necessary in every case?  Would the use of insulated fishplates, with dropper feeds to the point, negate the need for the switch? Or have I got loads of switches & fiddly wiring to look forward to?  So much for " just two wires for the whole layout"!

I think you will have to bite the bullet. and switch polarity……….there maybe a school of thought that suggest you can get away with it but I think the risk of shorting would be too great

There are some pluses….by switching the polarity you are not relying on the switch blade to provide power through contact…..better connectivity and better running:lol:

I assume you already have the peco point motors?

I went down the same route when I converted to DCC for Granby III………..initially I used the Peco switches but found them to be either unreliable (PL 13) or fiddly (PL 15)…….. I then bought micro switches (I think Sol has a picture) which were about the same price as PL15. When I added the combined price of a motor and switch I realised the combined cost was about the price of a Tortoise………….now whenever I install new points I put in a Tortoise and I keep my redundant peco motors for the odd insul frog point.

There are some excellent threads here and on RMWeb which influenced me in coming to this decision

Hope this helps

Kind Regards  


Edited to add: As I have said before Two Wires for DCC is an urban myth although you do eliminate all the fiddly wiring back to the control panel for section switches. For 30 points you should probably think about a separate bus to power the motors…….I do and it makes wiring simpler

Having said all that you will find DCC is a revelation……dont know how I managed before

 

I agree with John, his advice is well worth considering. Having said that, I did operate my DCC layout for some time with the whole fiddle area using non-modified points and ordinary metal joiners which then automatically gave me isolated sidings whenever the point was set away from said siding. As John says, the down side is two fold. Firstly you are relying on the contact between the stock rail and switch blade for electrical continuity to the switch blade and frog. Secondly there is supposedly a risk of a short occuring between the opposite stock rail and the switch blade when a wheel passes through the gap. The reason this can occur is that with an electrofrog point, both switch blades and the frog area are all connected together. I said "supposedly" because I never suffered from this problem.

Trouble is that if you start off this way in some areas it is usually impossible to change over to frog switching without lifting the points concerned. This is because the switchblades need to be isolated from the frog by breaking links under the rails. However, I have considered how one could "prepare" for this. If you wanted to start without switches, but be able to change your mind later, you could break these links first of all, and then fit droppers to each switch blade (Peco provide a space in the sleepers, under the switch blades to enable you to do this) and also drop the supplied frog connection wire through the baseboard.

Then connect these three wires (one for each switch blade and one for the frog) back together again under the baseboard. The point will now be electrically just as it was in the box. If at a later stage you decide you do want the switches added, then whether you fit a switch over the point motor, or add microswitches as suggested by John, you only have to disconnect the three wires from each other and connect them instead to the switch. (Frog to common, and each switch blade to each side of a changeover switch which is also connected to the adjacent stock rails.)

Thanks for this input - I suppose I knew the answer was going to be 'yes'! John - you are right, I have already bought the Peco motors.  As I buy most of my stuff from the UK (even with carriage charges it's cheaper than from the model shop here) I'd bought all points, motors, mounting plates etc. in one big hit.  You say you've used both PL-13 & PL-15 & been happy with neither - as it looks as if I'm committed (or should be!) to one or t'other, which would you go for?

Thanks for your very informative post Geoff but I think as I have yet to install a single point I need to, as John says, 'bite the bullet' now rather than have to possibly re-do things later.  The whole project is taking so long to get going I don't even want to think about having to do anything twice!

Mal

While Tortoise/Cobalt are the best of the lot, I find that the PL13 on my Peco solenoids are OK. I had one come adrift on me but carefully got it back together working.
The modification to points is perfect for both DC  & DCC.
http://www.mrol.com.au/Articles/Electrical/LiveFrogWiring.aspx

[user=380]Kaiser[/user] wrote:

 You say you've used both PL-13 & PL-15 & been happy with neither - as it looks as if I'm committed (or should be!) to one or t'other, which would you go for?

Mal

You can still buy microswitches from an electronic shop…….they have a roller lever and you mount them next to the peco motor so that the bottom of the pin, that actuates the point, rests against the lever….throw the point and the lever is released throwing the switch………I am sure I have seen a photo hereabouts…………..if you are at all interested I will take a photo for you…….they cost the same (in Canada) as a PL15 and you dont have to assemble them and they are far more robust

If you have to choose between the PL 13 and 15 I would definitely go for the 15…….they are more expensive and a pain to assemble but you have the benefit of a second switch (signals/LED on switchboard etc) and provided you have assembled them carefully they are far more reliable than the PL 13

There are a number of people (Sol is obviously one) who are quite comfortable with PL 13s……… others are not……try searching on RMWeb. I find the contacts are fragile and easily fracture and worse still the copper conducting plate oxidises and or warps out of true……………….I am not normally as prejudiced as this about a product and in fairness I do have a few that appear to be operating ok but I have had enough breakdown (always in a crucial inaccessible corner :twisted:) to say never again!  

I tried PL13s on the first couple and didn't like them at all. All of mine now have the PL15s fitted. Yes a bit of a pain to assemble, but you get used to it. I use the second contact for many different things. On crossovers where two points always operate together, I use just one switch on one of the motors using both its contacts to power the two frogs involved.

Now that's a good idea, thanks Geoff :doublethumb

Goodluck with the points Mal and all the wireing, I am at the same stage, moding peco electro points,except I opted for the Seeps with a built in switch, The ordinary turnouts left and right are straight forward enough, At the moment I am looking at the peco code 75 3-way and trying to work out where to solder the cross jumpers so The point does not rely on just the blade contact for power,and which of the original connection wires to break?
You are right the job seems to take a lot of time, maybe later this year I could have something running.

regards,
Derek

[user=477]shunter1[/user] wrote:

 At the moment I am looking at the peco code 75 3-way and trying to work out where to solder the cross jumpers so The point does not rely on just the blade contact for power,and which of the original connection wires to break?

I made this diagram up several years ago, Derek. But it might still assist:-


The code 75 3-way points are already wired "DCC friendly". There is nothing that needs breaking from the original point. All that matters is to correctly connect the three frog wires provided. There is more than one way to do it, but the above works well.

 

Hi Derek - nearly 12 months to finish baseboards (the easy part!).  Don't know where the time goes!  Least you live in a nice part of the world.  We nearly moved to Ireland (love the lifestyle & the people) but the weather was too 'soft' for us!

I've just looked & PL-13s are £2.50 each, against £6 for the PL-15s.  So £75 against £180! It seems I've got to have them & the general consensus appears to be that the extra £105 is worth it.  Hey ho.  Who thought that playing trains could be so expensive!

Many thanks Geoff you have come to my rescue once more!
Glad I don't have to break anything.

Hi Mal, Good to hear from you. Just as well you did'nt come to Ireland the economy has gone soft as well!
Its still a lovely country. Just times have got hard.

You are right the hobby is pricey, Biggest expense I think is the start up. Track/points- point motors, controllers, baseboards, wiring ect and of course a chipped loco to run on it. Still it keeps us out of trouble hehe.

regards,
Derek