Everything live even when using insulated joiners??

[user=1632]BCDR[/user] wrote:

Hi Kevin,

Firefox works fine with YMR.

Just a thought, do you have an insulator on both rails out of the frog? Only needs one on the frog rail. If you have another insulator at the other end of the rail and that rail does not have a dropper wire……..(we're all grasping at straws here sans wiring diagram/pictures).

These issues do not come up with Insulfrogs or dead frogs.

Nigel

That comment has confused me Nigel  :roll::roll:  There are 2 frog rails and surely, each one needs an IRJ ………….:hmm

Having re-read this thread, I think it's highly unlikely that we're going to be able to help much Kevin unless we can see what you've done.  From what you've said, it should work but obviously, if it doesn't, you've missed telling us something. :???::???:

Hi Nigel                  I think that I have put Firefox on my Laptop?? But, it is the next stage of the operation that I'm not sure about, that is the transfer from Google Chrome apps to Firefox, and I keep getting messages about "It? is not my default browser".Regarding the "Live Frogs" yes both the frog (Vee Shape) rails have IRJ's , But, I wasn't sure whether the "Close Proximity" of the Two Sets of points had any bearing on the possible short circuit or WHY. is causing the Loco to stall. And if an additional IRJ on the Stock Rail would solve the problem. I would prefer to use "Electrofrog Points now that I have converted them. all the best  Kevin

Hi Petermac                        When I mentioned an additional IRJ, it was for the "Stock Rail" that I meant with the close proximity of two sets of points. Because my Loco chuff's merrily away going at a very slow pace i.e. without stalling onto a straight length of track.Again today, I reversed the Positive and Negative wires, so I am Positive that the fault lies elsewhere??(Fingers Crossed). But I will keep plugging away until I get there?? or die trying. Maybe I need a short length of track between the Points??  all the best  Kevin

The points can join each other with no problems Kevin.  You need IRJ's on both frog rails on all points but each point must be electrically fed from the toe end (i.e. the end opposite the frog) - a "+" and a "-", one to each rail .

Do you have feeds to the toe end of the 2nd point ?  Because of the IRJ, the power won't connect from one point to the next via the frog rail.  The running rail should have an ordinary joiner so will pass current although it is always recommended to use a feed as well as the joiner.   Each point must be treated as a separate unit irrespective of where they are or how many there are "in the row".

Hi Kevin,

I can almost feel your frustration with your electrical problems, which is persisting even though we all want to help you get your trains running as they should.

I know that Sol, Peter and Nigel have asked for a track plan and I suspect the complexity of getting one posted using the pc may be another difficulty you could do without. However, how about taking a photo of your plank layout and posting that? It would be a start and if you have 'Paint' on your pc, which you almost certainly will, you can open the photo with the 'Paint' programme and easily annotate it to show your track feeds, bus cables, IRJs, polarity switches, etc and we'll then be able to see what needs doing to get you operating.

I see that Mike (16A) has already given instructions of how to find and open 'Paint' to make a drawing. I did all my track plans using 'Paint' and it's not that difficult. 

To open a photo in 'Paint' (which lets you resize it to 800 pixels wide for posting on here and also to make notes and draw on it), simply highlight the photo in your file folder by hovering your cursor over it , right clicking your mouse and select 'open with' and then chose 'Paint' from the drop down menu.

I hope this helps Kevin, as we all want to see you running as soon as possible.

Best wishes,

Bill :)

 

Hi Petermac  Yes most definitely, In fact it is the way that I have wired other points as well. The idea of an additional  IRJ, was me clutching at straws?        all the best   Kevin

Our posts crossed Kevin - you do not need an IRJ on the stock rail - unless it's part of a crossover formed by two facing points, in which case, it would meet a frog rail which does need the IRJ.

If it's just a normal point - i.e. just a turn off from the main, then you add an IRJ to each of the two frog rails and the two stock rails will have metal joiners.

As an aside, if you have a feed to the toe end of every point, then you can use IRJ's everywhere. ;-)  I know modellers who only use IRJ's because the slight rail gap they create gives that clickety-clack but, every single piece of track is fed from the power bus.

Having re-read your last reply, the problem has got to be either a short at the frog (in which case, it's a polarity problem in that you frog is being fed with the wrong polarity via your switch) or, the frog isn't being powered at all - no short, just no power.

Do you have a multi-meter ?  If so, can you check to see if there's power at the frog or is it dead ?

One final thought.  I once had a similar, extremely frustrating problem where I'd checked and double checked my wiring and still didn't get anything.  I lifted the point to fiddle with it "on the level" rather than breaking my neck under the baseboards.  I discovered that half the linking wires on the point were missing - a fault in manufacture !!!  I'll see if I can dig up a photo of the offending point - it might just be worth checking that it's not a manufacturing fault although mine was the only one I'd ever come across.

I've copied this photo from elsewhere so doubt it will work until I upload it but here goes.

The missing links on my faulty Peco point.  You can just make out that the thin frog wire goes to the frog but the grooves which should carry the wires out to the rails are empty !!  As an after-comment, I think this is an insulfrog point so may not be significant :

Not an Insulfrog Peter, just an Electro that has been mutilated !

:thumbs:thumbs

Hi Kevin,

Both rails coming out of the frog - the frog and stock rail. It's not clear to me where the dead section is. I believe you have a 2 turnout inglenook. So:

1. Left to right or right to left?
2. Dead section is between first and second turnout, or is on the first siding, the second siding or the third siding?
3 Do all turnout toes have feeder wires?
4. Do all rails after the turnout have feeder wires.

Nigel

Hi Nigel                 Sorry:oops: about any confusion?? it is a "Simple Three Siding Inglenook" sitting on a 4 foot by 1 foot baseboard.At the front is a length of track, roughly in the middle of which is a "Right Hand Point" (the loco L 94 has no trouble passing through this set of points on the straight, at the time of writing) the Bus feeds both ends and the point, the Live Frog is fitted with I R J's.The point(Turnout) leading off to the right is a Y point, this too is fitted with I R J's and fed from the Bus along with the ends of the sidings.As soon as the Loco arrives on the Y point, it stalls.  The points and polarity are controlled by Wire in the Tube Slide Switches, as per information, c/o Gary                       all the best  Kevin

Hi Ron             On my layout? that is "Very skilfully mutilated", electrofrog, following Peco's instructions.                all the best  Kevin

[user=1801]Passed Driver[/user] wrote:

Hi Ron             On my layout? that is "Very skilfully mutilated", electrofrog, following Peco's instructions.                all the best  Kevin

Hopefully not Kevin ……………..:roll::roll::roll:

There should be small wires stiing inside those grooves ……..as here.  This one has not yet had the tiny bridging links removed.  Compare this shot with the earlier one to see what's missing :

Sounds like the feed to the Y point is faulty Kevin.

Where exactly have you soldered the droppers on the Y point.

It could just be a bad joint.


Ed

Okay Kevin… let's try and sort it…..

From your description above, this is something like what you have - 3 sidings; point A is right handed; point B is a 'Y'



Your locos stall at position 'X' which coincides with the rail joint between points A & B. Suspicions raised are a) something wrongly wired somewhere or b) point 'B' is faulty.

To confirm:- Use a circuit tester and, with everything on the layout turned OFF and point A set to sidings, put a probe either side of the gap on either of the two rails across this connection, it should complete the circuit. Now try the other one; again it should complete the circuit.

If it doesn't;- put one probe on one rail on point A side of the gap and one probe on the other rail on side B of the gap. If this completes the circuit, it suggests your wiring is wrong somewhere.



As Ed suggests, my suspicions would direct me to the wiring of point B (the Y).

Try putting the loco in one of the sidings and send it back the other way; if the wiring is wrong it should also stall when it gets to position X.

Using Petermac's image (thanks P) I have shown how the electrofrog should be wired.



We'll get there soon… somehow… between us…..

Good one Mike. :thumbs:thumbs

Well done chaps and excellently clear drawings Mike. Every picture tells a story, but in much fewer words.

You're in a good spot now Kevin to get L94 shunting and your post No 32 painted the right picture :thumbs

Onwards,

Bill :) 

Hi Petermac                          Now you have got me going?? When I converted the points as per Peco's leaflet.I cut out the fine wires, and chopped off the loose ends, and then soldered a piece of wire between the stock rail and the blade. And the first set of point work fine, so the second one should be okay too.            all the best  Kevin

Hi Ed         That is where I cheated:oops: the droppers on all the converted points, and the wire connecting the "Stock Rail with the Point Blade"are "One in the Same", so that means less soldering. And of course if the "Stock Rail" is live? then the point(Switch) blade is live.             And again it worked on the first point , towards the "Straight /Third Siding, so why not when the point is "Reversed"??                               all the best  Kevin