Simple pimple..........

[Shown for SEEP motors]


The thing to remember is that the point motor switches at one end of the slip control the polarity of the frog at the other end……………once you get your head around that, it all makes more sense.  Positive and negative feed are also applied at 'A' and 'B'.

Doug

Hello.

Could a member or members help please?

All my 00 gauge points are code 100 live frog: except that is my double slip which has insulated frogs.

It has no point motors only my index finger;-).

Please could someone put a simple diagram of where the feeds and any insulated rail joiners will go.

It is connected directly to a live frog point.

Thanks in anticipation,

Jeff Rippon

Not sure I'm up to this, I'd have to haver the bits in front of me to play with….any one else?


Doug

Just clear up a point, Jeff.  Are you asking about how to install motors, or do you just want to hook the double slip up to your track feed?

Here's how to hook up the rails.

If it is an insulfrog turnout, put insulated joiners on every (8) track join.  Then put dropper wires on each of the rails at each end of the turnout.  Start with the rail furthest from the edge of the layout, then go red, black, red, black towards the nearest.  When you do the other end of the turnout, you can dispense with the two outside rail droppers if you like, because they would have been connected at the other end.

Is that helpful?

Jeff, assuming you are using DCC, on the double slip, put insulated joiners on all 8 rails & provide DCC droppers as per A & B as per Dougs first post.
If it is DC, you can trat it as another section/controller selection switch.
If in doubt, have a good read of this http://brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.htm#Points

The Devil is in the detail.  I spent ages trying to successfully wire a double slip.  With live (or electro-) frog points you would need to insulate all the rail ends as your other points do not self-isolate the track sections.  This means that you can have currents going in several directions and causing unwanted movements or shorts unless there is some other form of insulation and switching.

Using insulfrog points makes wiring simpler as the points can be used to isolate track sections but you then have the inherent drawbacks of those points in terms of train performance and track appearance.  You can still get a short if you forget to set the points against the crossing route but good signalling and regulation will ensure this doesn't happpen!

Hi.

Sorry but I'm still having trouble understanding your instructions.

Firstly I am using DC not DCC.

As already stated my points are live frog, only the double slip has insulated frogs.

Aren't the plastic frogs of the double slip in lieu of putting in insulated rail joiners?

If I add insulated rail joiners to the frogs presumably that will give me belt and braces?

I then solder wires to each of the outside curved rails and these can be connected with nickel silver rail joiners to the other track?

Does that sound correct please?

Regards,

Jeff

  

Jeff - your "insulfrog" slip is just that - it's an insulated frog - a small break in the frog rails.  That avoids the loco wheels shorting out at the frog because you could meet both a + and a - exactly on the frog.  It has nothing to do with insulating the point/crossing/slip.

Putting insulated rail joiners on all the ends of the tracks on the slip, is different.  That insulates the whole of the slip from the rest of the layout.  Then you have to connect the power using  Max's explaination to each bit of rail using droppers. The frogs (being already insulated) will take care of themsleves.

As far as I know,  they (Peco) only make insulfrog double slips.  I suspect the wiring for electrofrog ones would be a nightmare for amateurs.

They're not too bad, Peter.  I have two double slip electrofrog turnouts on my RR&Co layout and with the Tortoise motors, it was simple to switch the frog polarity.

Jeff is DC, so in the interest of simplicity, I suggested isolating the turnout from the rest of the trackage.  Then you can connect the turnout sub-bus to which ever block suits your operating needs.

An insulfrog point will isolate current to the track it is set against because it breaks the circuit on one side though there is still the other continuous rail.  If you have another point (for example at the far end of a loop) set such that it feeds current into the loop then you negate the effect of the plastic frog; power will still be available to trains which will move under DC control.

In the case of a double slip there are more rails and more continuous routes for power to feed through.  That was one aspect which caused me some problems wiring mine.  The plastic frogs fulfil the same function as they do anywhere else but instead of three track ends you have four and instead of two routes for trains to take you have four again.  Therefore it is good advice to completely isolate the unit and switch the current as you require.

My track plan means I don''t need to do that much as I can isolate routes by setting other points against them but that will not be true for all layouts.  I only have one pair of rails insulated which is where the cross-track goes from down to up and that is only to prevent shorts.  Trains can be driven across the gap without stopping by using the controllers for both circuits.

[user=269]MaxSouthOz[/user] wrote:

They're not too bad, Peter.  I have two double slip electrofrog turnouts on my RR&Co layout and with the Tortoise motors, it was simple to switch the frog polarity.

 

Are they handbuilt Max?

 

Thank you for the compliment, John.  No they are Peco.  The whole layout is Code 75 which means only electrofrog turnouts are available.  That in turn meant I had to learn how to wire the frogs.  Geoff R and Sol showed me how.

I didn't realise Peco made electrofrog slips in Code 75 - I presume they are Peco.

Just shows - keep your mouth shut Petermac unless you're sure of your facts !!!!!  :oops::oops::oops:

I haven't contributed to this thread as yet because I am not a user of insulfrog points - I only use code 75 electrofrog - but I do have many double and single slips which are all electrofrog and running with DCC.

However, I do understand what is required for DC and wondered if a simple diagram might help Jeff here. I think that an insulated double slip connected to an electrofrog point would look like this:-




If I am correct, then all of the red rails on the slip are joined together by Peco, as are all the green. (Incidentally this is very similar to the electrofrog code 75 version except in the area of the frogs.) If I am wrong about the internal connections, I apologise now and will change the picture as soon as someone tells me different!

Continuing to assume that I am correct, this means that very little needs to be done to wire up the slip, and I think that is the aim with insulfrog. Not sure where you have your electrofrog point connected, Jeff, but where I have shown it would only mean using two insulated joiners at its frog as usual.

You say you are not using motors, just fingers, so I think nothing else is needed. The blue rails on the electrofrog are all joined together and change polarity according to which switch blade is against its stock rail. As shown, the blue rails would be powered by the green stock rail.

Hope this helps.

Hello Geoff.

Thanks for your post. Certainly you have shown the arrangement of double slip and point that I have.

However, looking at the coloured rails I can't understand how the routeings have been set.

If coming into the d/s from the lower left hand track I have 2 routes to go; either ahead across the crossing or towards the horizontal right hand track. It just seems the switch rails shown doesn't show this but perhaps that is draughtsmans licence?

If just adding 2 insulated rail joiners where shown is right, and I don't mean to doubt you, this arrangement is far simpler than I had assumed.

Could you just check your arrangement please before I fit new rail joiners.

Thanks,

Jeff

 

 

Jeff, the switch rails are set in this diagram for the route from the upper left track to the lower right track - i.e. straight across. If the left hand blades were pushed downwards as you look at the diagram, the route would be from the upper left track to the upper right track heading for the other point.

If the right hand blades were pushed upwards, then in the first case above the route would be from the lower left track to the lower right track, and in the second case from the lower left track to the upper right track, i.e. the other point.

I believe that the key aspect of the insulfrog slip is that the rails are always powered as I have shown them. Now switching occurs when the blades are moved. This is EXACTLY the same with the electrofrog code 75, except that the frogs have to be switched due to the two rails that make them up being electrically connected to each other.

Are you not able to connect it up as shown and attach power to check that it works before making anything permanent? You could use a 9v battery as a quick test.

Hi Geoff.

Thanks for your posting.

With a bit of fiddling and some additional switching the double slip now seems to work on all routes.

I also apologise for doubting your drawing. I had not figured out it is possible to set a route other than the correct ones.

To all those who also posted replies - many thanks.

Regards,

Jeff

This was the most useful and comprehensive advice on this subject I have seen.many thanks