Post any questions arising from "First Steps with RR&Co"

Look forward to the updates Dave perhaps start a new thread? I must admit i can't see the decoder details on Concepts website all i can see is "coming soon "

Pete, see if you can read this about DCC concept decoders
DCC Concepts decoders. | Model Railway Forum

Thanks Ron………..thats a very helpful thread…….. excellent review as well

I found Richard extremely helpful…………5 are on their way accross the Pacific……when they arrive I will let you know how I get on

Cheers Ron for the link, i might give one a go in a tempremental Class 105 DMU i have got, its a loksound at the moment and stutters terriably. I may use the DCC COncepts w/ stay alive to power the motor and use the Loksound purely as a sound decoder.

Hi Guys,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on the DCC Concepts decoder.  I have had other commitments so today has been the first opportunity to sit and see how the new decoder handled "speed profiling"
I should add that I had profiled the decoder the other night but was not happy with the results at all with large spikes occurring in both directions at a scale speed of above 60kph
I put this down to the fact that I had just plugged in the decoder - normally I remove the capacitors first.  So  today I removed the capacitors and hard wired the decoder.
The results are a lot better although the forward profile looks a lot different from the backwards one - this may be due to the loco which is the new GWR Pannier I mentioned in an earlier post.

The Stay alive works well - the only problem is that I only really need it in my smaller locos and its another thing to find space for -

Here's a Losound profile for you to compare, Dave:-

The DDC decoder doesn't compare to your Loksound or even to my TCS and NCE profiles.
Tomorrow I will try another one by replacing and existing decoder in a loco that already has a profile - that way i can eliminate the loco as the reason for the profile.
The other reason may be that I'm doing the speed profiling with the "stay alive" connected although I would have thought that would have impacted both directions.

Looks like it may be the decoder - found this on another forum from a RR&Co user
 
http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17752&pid=194174&st=30&#entry194174

Hi Dave

There is a thread on RMWeb as well…….I think the mid point CV may need tweaking……are instructions available now?

Incidentally you havent entered contact distances which will impact on the profile:stopping 

Hi John,

As you my have seen there is still nothing on the DCC Concepts site and there have been no postings on the other forums - so its all gone very quiet. I have tried a few changes to CV but still not getting a smooth curve.

Have your decoders arrived yet  quest:- it will be interesting to see if you have the same experience.

In the meantime I have been working on my schedules and experimenting with virtual contacts as I try everything to make the stopping point more consistent:???:

As I slowly build up my schedules and work on setting up all the blocks correctly I have begun to realise the size of the task ahead of me …. including setting up timetables   …. its a job for life !!!  
 It almost to the point where  after dealing with RR&Co  for a few hours I find ballasting  relaxing and less frustrating :Red Card

Cheers

[user=540]gdaysydney[/user] wrote:

Hi John,

As you my have seen there is still nothing on the DCC Concepts site and there have been no postings on the other forums - so its all gone very quiet. I have tried a few changes to CV but still not getting a smooth curve.

Have your decoders arrived yet  quest:- it will be interesting to see if you have the same experience.

They arrived Monday…….right now they are still in the bubble pack as I finish detailing the loco spur module……I cant make up my mind whether to start fitting chips….(.I have at least 12 locos to chip or debug or reprofile:twisted:.)…………or do the station board next and complete the loop.

I have decided to buld a separate profiling track rather than use my storage sidings which are rather inaccessible and that will take more time and re arrangement………..Decisions Decisions!

As I slowly build up my schedules and work on setting up all the blocks correctly I have begun to realise the size of the task ahead of me …. including setting up timetables   …. its a job for life !!!

I am really bad at this…..I have a few core routines but I dont run them enough as I press on with trying to finish the main line

Kind Regards

In the last two or three days I have started to play around with speed profiling. I'm having problems getting to grips with runout distances.

Yesterday I got a pair of graphs looking a bit like Dave's in post 1125, showing the speed tailing off at the high end.  I put this down to a run-in that was too short, so that at high speed steps the engine was still accelerating as it entered the central section and at the highest step the average speed through the trap was way below the top speed I measured in a single run.

I did it again with a longer run-in and got a smooth graph finishing at the measured top speed.  So far so good, but then I see that Dave used a run-in of only 30cm. and that Max got a smooth straight graph with a run-in of only 2cm. and a redline speed of about 80 kph.  Other postings suggest that lots of people are using short run-ins and getting satisfactory profiles. My unsuccessful attempt used a run-in of 30 ins. and I increased it to 150 ins. - no point in pussyfooting with intermediate settings - and it made a significant difference to the graphs. What I cannot understand is why I need such long distances when others don't.  The answer may be in acceleration rates:  What is a ball park figure for CV 3? I'm using around 20 in most engines, with CV 4 at 0 or 1.

Regards,

 Brian R

Hi Brian

Perhaps if I detail my settings it will help a bit . . .

On the Lokprogrammer the loco has 6.952 seconds of Acceleration time > CV 3 = 8 and zero deceleration time.

It has a linear speed table with the maximum set at 80% therefore there is no setting for CVs 2 6 and 5


In TC the loco is set at 10% Acceleration and 10% Deceleration.

The profiling settings are     Length = 160 cm

                                        Run out = 20 cm

                                        Pause 5 seconds

The Brake Compensation is set on zero.

Is any of that any use?

Cheers

Thanks Max,

Yes, that's helpful, you are using more runout than I thought and your decoder's acceleration is quicker than mine.
I'm using around 20 in CV3 because I worked out that it gives 0-60mph in about 10 or 12 sec.  Faster  than that would need Formula 1 drivers, but it does look slow - scaling down does strange things.  Even with 8 in CV3 I think I would need more runout than 20cm. so there must be other factors involved.

Regards,

Brian

Hi Brian,

Whilst I have a run in and run out of 30cm the actual lengths of my blocks at each end are far longer.
I'm still in the learning stages as well and have spent many evenings watching loco's up up and down my speed profiling siding trying to get the speed profiling as best as possible so that the loco will have consistent stopping on the layout when running schedules.
I initially found that when I didn't cap the top speed of the loco it would run well out of the run out  as it got nearer to the top speeds.  Even now I find that locos will run past the 30cm mark although nowhere near to the same extent.

The good news is that for general stopping it doesn't matter too much whether the loco is stopping accurately as long as it stops with say an inch either side of the desired spot - but for shunting sequences - where I have "jumped in at the deep end"  ( under the guidance of John and Max ) it does create frustration.  I beginning to  suspect that there are too many variables and some that are difficult to control - such as the temperature!!  I have noticed that locos normally stop pretty close to where I want it on the first run but then start to vary thereafter - I am going to try speed profiling after a loco has "warmed up" to see if that will make a material difference.

Hi Dave

I agree with all of that.  One thing to remember is that stop markers are not actual physical markers, but are the points where the timer stops the loco.  The amount of time the loco runs is very accurate, but I don't believe that the loco's performance is usually consistent enough to end up at the same spot on the track every time.

Variables in the drive train for example, can have an effect.  Then there is the decoder.  Not so much trouble with good quality motion decoders - although they have internal timers as well, and can vary a bit.

The real challenge comes with sound decoders.  For example, Loksound decoders have a built in delay in addition to the Speed Table.  This is to ensure that, particularly with diesels, the engine revs sound has time to build up before the loco moves off.

It is particularly noticable if the loco has a long run into the Block before it reaches the Stop Marker.  That reinforces my belief that it's a timer issue.  Where you've got a timer driving a timer it probably has the effect of multiplying any errors. 

Railroad & Co tragics are dealing with this phenomenon in various ways, viz., infra red detectors and long uncoupling magnets just to name two.  I've chosen to use cars with internal uncoupling devices  controlled by decoders.  That way it won't matter where the car stops exactly.  That's the theory, any way.  :oops:

All I have to do now is learn how to make Train Sets and how to operate two different decoders in the same Schedule.   :chicken

I'm trying the extended magnet approach as per Perry's and Sol's posts - although I'm not sure how that will go for John's shuffle which I am utilising on my layout. 

I'm having the same problems. I'm using tension locks with ramps about as long as a Kadee magnet.  A further problem is if you're trying to couple to the back of a train as in a run around.

If I don't know where the front is to within 3cm, and the engine at the back may stop up to 3cm away from target it means that the brake marker has to be 12cm away from the stop marker to avoid ever hitting the train faster than threshold, and in the worst case the train could be pushed forward by 12cm. - and that's with just one engine and one train. Matching stop points among several engines is another challenge altogether.

I could try longer ramps, but I think it will be better to put extra detectors in to act as stop markers, with short shifted distances.

I now accept that there are so many variables at play that some difference in stopping distances are inevitable. I try and cope with various work arounds.

Smooth running is critical….. any stuttering or helping hand from the sky screws up TCs Time and Distance calculations. I am fairly ruthless with erratic performance from a specific loco (remove from schedule or reprofile)

I am fairly convinced the loco needs to be warmed up…….by the time a schedule involving uncoupling has been checked out and perfected it will typically have been run half a dozen times. Next day you come down and run the schedule from cold and it is often far from perfect:twisted: I am thinking of trying to set up some sort of warm up run first although I am not sure how I do that within a timetable:roll: 

I agree with you about block distance Brian…..most of my shunting blocks are fairly short and the stop marker I have the most problems with is at the end of a 7' block  (there are other factors as well)

Generally with an ok loco I find the length of the Kaydee magnet gives sufficient tolerance  for uncoupling…….I suspect when I start using a greater variety of locos I may have to introduce more markers with train conditions although I can run 3 prairies and a 57xx on a loco exchange without problems

For coupling I tend to have the loco run on a couple of inches

 

 

 

stanthink you have am beginning to accept

[user=434]John Dew[/user] wrote:

Generally with an ok loco I find the length of the Kaydee magnet gives sufficient tolerance  for uncoupling…….I suspect when I start using a greater variety of locos I may have to introduce more markers with train conditions although I can run 3 prairies and a 57xx on a loco exchange without problems

For coupling I tend to have the loco run on a couple of inches

Totally agree, there are so many variables there may be a need for compromise. I think i am fortunate that the engines i will run are tanks of around the same length which does simplify matters, i am also fortunate that the Bachmann Fairburns are superb smooth and slow runners and actually match the prototype for my layout (take me out and shoot me i am learning about prototypes next stop rivet counting)