Cut and Shut?

Hi All.   Seriously I would like to have the confidence to buy an etch built kit ( LSWR Coach) let alone Painting and Lining the finished article .
But in the meantime, I have  been thinking about "Cut and Shut" and I don't even know where to begin . The problem being that pre grouping  railway carriages are not taken seriously by most modellers, So the manufacturers don't bother, but take Hornby for instance, please, I wrote to them regarding my LSWR. M7 asking about carriages to run with it, and I was given the "No demand" answer. Are there a suitable carriages that I should be on the look out for to convert say "two into one" or whatever it takes to represent a carriage of the correct period?? And could I find them at swap meets?? I know this is a big ask.  all the best. Kevin

There is an ex LSWR coach by Hornby that was mentioned in one of your threads.  Jeff said that BR significantly altered them not least by putting a more modern underframe underneath and lengthening them by 10ft.  With the necessary research you could determine what these looked like in LSWR days and modify/buy in to create an authentic coach.  A note to Roxey might get you just the bogies and underframe - a far more reasonable task than a whole coach.
You will still be faced with the daunting task of painting and decorating.
This is a book you might look out for:
 LSWR Carriages Volume One  careful, it covers coaches up to 1900.

John

Hi John.  Thank you, on Saturday 24 September there is a railway show
which I hope to attend. Traders at that show include " Roxey Mouldings"
and "Replica". But of course the crowds might be overwhelming and I may find it impossible to glean any information . Apart from that I have bit the proverbial bullet and purchased an " RThompson" etched brass and white metal kit of a " Hurst Nelson" Brakevan" as used by London Transport. This will act as a guide to determine my skill or not, depending on whether it gets made and providing that is okay?:oops: well anyway I will let you and the forum know how I get on( Dustbin or Track) all the best. Kevin

Good luck at the show.  I wish I could do that.  Shows over here are few and far between and, of course, we don't see famous name traders.

I'm happy to hear that you're going to tackle a simpler project to start with.:doublethumb I'll be interested to follow the build.

I still think you're mad to try to model pre-grouping given the sparcity of RTR but go for it.:chicken

John

Just got an email from Rails: 
https://railsofsheffield.com/oxford-rail-or76ar003-adams-radial-4-4-2t-488-in-lswr-or76ar003-oxford-rail-JJJA27454.aspx?utm_source=Mailing+List&utm_campaign=b808c7676d-Adams_Radial_Bargains9_23_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_74d01bc2ed-b808c7676d-5319089
Wicked of me I know.

Hi John.     Thank you for your reply. It seems like a good price from Oxford Rail, Now if they were to come up with some LSWR coaches that would be good. The simpler project? are you referring to the Hurst Nelson brake van? and do you perhaps know anyone who has built one?
 all the best. Kevin








Train Sets and Rolling Stock | Hornby UK

Just being evil and putting temptation in your way.

Yes, I meant the brake van as a simpler project.  I don't know what these look like but I did this D&S kit of a L&Y brake.



There's a discussion in my workbench thread.  It takes some skill I guess.

Here's a Chivers brass kit:



Lots of examples of my plastic/brass kit building and RTR mods in the workbench thread.

John

Your stock building is almost as good as your computer skills John !

Just joking of course, great workmanship.

Allan.

You're a wicked man Allan.  Now I think you should have a cup of tea and some biccies and stop agonizing about memory sticks.

John

If you've ever tried coming to just reasonable terms with a SanDisk John you'll need something a lot stronger than just tea and biscuits !

Allan.

Snickers?

Probaly just fine for prizing it out of the plastic bubble John !

[user=1801]Passed Driver[/user] wrote:

Hi All.   Seriously I would like to have the confidence to buy an etch built kit ( LSWR Coach) let alone Painting and Lining the finished article .
But in the meantime, I have  been thinking about "Cut and Shut" and I don't even know where to begin . The problem being that pre grouping  railway carriages are not taken seriously by most modellers, So the manufacturers don't bother, but take Hornby for instance, please, I wrote to them regarding my LSWR. M7 asking about carriages to run with it, and I was given the "No demand" answer. Are there a suitable carriages that I should be on the look out for to convert say "two into one" or whatever it takes to represent a carriage of the correct period?? And could I find them at swap meets?? I know this is a big ask.  all the best. Kevin

Hi Kevin,

I included the quote as this is not a jam sandwich post.

Kernow Model Centre are doing a 1914 set of LSWR pull-push gated stock in SR lined livery or BR blood and custard. These are RTR. Reservations being taken. £99 for a 2 coach set. Tooling stage at the moment.

Worsley Works do etches for 10 LSWR models (as well as many SECR and LBSCR models), not so much kits as building aids. Use a body, chassis and bogies from a RTR model to speed things along. Allen Douherty will probably supply just the sides if it's on one etch. Ask him. If you see anything tasty in another scale he'll do it in 4mm.

Some of the real auction sites such as Vectis often have coach lots. A lot comprising coaches/vans, 6 in total, recently came up on Barnebys. 

PC models did a couple of LSWR coach kits in SR green with printed sides (acetal). Looked OK from 6 feet.

For a complete list of what kits/parts are available for passenger stock see the Southern E Group - Southern Railway E-mail Group Web Site


So, in answer to your question on "Doing a cut and shut - where do you begin?". I've done a few in the past (some good, some bad, and some, well, the least said the better) as well as using brass etched and plastic sides, so read on.

1. Look at what you want and what RTR models will be required. Some things to consider once you decide you can actually do what you want (or come close to it):

2. Making sure the join in the body is not visible usually requires precise 90° cuts, joining together with adhesive, and reinforcing the inside. It's easier to cut long, and file/sand back to the required length.

3. Filling, sanding, priming, filing, sanding, priming of the joint is normally required. The only time you can minimize this is if the join is on a door frame or panel side. The repetition is not a slip of the fingers, you do need to sand, prime, and fill in any imperfections, and then sand and prime again.

4. Any lettering/lining on the originals needs to be removed, and the remainder of the original bodies fully prepped (sanding, priming).

5. Any detailing (door handles or rail gutters for example) needs to be added.

6. The completed body is then primed and painted, lined, painted, sealed.

7. Modification of the chassis will be required if the final cut and shut is shorter or longer than the original donors.

LSWR stock running as SR just requires the one color and lining for the sides, so a lot easier than for example a paneled and triple-lined choco-cream GWR.

Sticking a brass etched side onto a stripped-down body is actually a lot easier and faster - no joins. And often a lot cheaper than buying 2 donor bodies when you only need one. You can use 2 part epoxy, which gives a few minutes adjustment, or slow-setting CA, which gives a few seconds adjustment, when attaching the side to the body. I prefer epoxy. Steps 2-4 are not required. You might have to do some adjustment to the length of the etch if it's too long, and to the chassis if that's too long, and replace the bogies. The final body is slightly wider than the original donor (the thickness of the brass).

Great opportunity to get some soldering skills and build a body, even if you just put it on a RTR chassis and bogies. If you want something close to what you want it's probably going to be a kit or brass etch sides. Easier than cutting and shutting.

Nigel

Hi Nigel.  Thank you. Only the week before last week I became a member of
Southern Railways Group, and I attended their AGM. Where I purchased a pair of bogies for my Ratio kit Bogie B Passenger Van, whilst there I gleaned some info on how pre grouping liveries lasted well beyond 1923
and if one were to run a model railway following some of the photographic evidence? Certain modellers would think " that one has cracked"
On Saturday I attended the Scale Forum event at Aylesbury, it wasn't a very busy event and everyone was willing and helpful, I spoke with Dave from Roxey Mouldings about his etched LSWR Coach Kits, and I purchased some 145 solder and flux from him, to hopefully build a model of a Hurst Nelson brake van, I will really have to psych myself up:oops:
Before I attempt that:???: If that goes well? I will give the"bigger kits" a go
but the Paintwork and Colour Scheme of the LSWR coaches does seem a bit of a challenge in itself. I was considering buying a LSWR set from Kernow, but. I'm not sure if my Hornby M7(painted in the National Railway Museum livery) would be or even look out of place. There has been a certain amount of critism on the livery from "Rivet Counters". Personally it looks good( even handsome ) to me! As far as "Cut and Shut" is concerned, There are a lot of very good modellers out there, some of whom display their  skills online ( maybe even on YouTube ?) Speaking of blood and custard? it was only on Saturday that I heard about the
"bloodandcustard.com" website , which having seen it, I thoroughly recommend it.   all the best. Kevin

Pre grouping stock tended to be ornate with lots of lining.  I did my LSWR coach lining with my own transfers, which worked as well as can be expected.  Some of the panels are REALLY small and it's beyond me how anyone could get a lining pen in there.

If your M7 is in NRM livery does that mean it's fictitious?  I think I said earlier that one pretext you could use is to say the loco is preserved and run it with SR or even BR liveried coaches.

John

Hi John. Thank you for your reply. In answer to your M7 livery question?
I think the rivet counters would say yes, I'm no expert my any stretch of the imagination, but I heard it said that the NRM Collection had the later livery. And therefore M7 is incorrect . As far as the LSWR salmon pink livery is concerned,  I agree that would be tiresome to replicate if not impossible? Sometimes I think that it would have been better for me to keep buying RTR, but that's life.   all the best. Kevin

I have no idea what the livery should look like either.  Looks good though.  You really need to be dedicated to do pre grouping.  Phoenix precision carry the LSWR colours, at least you have a chance to get them.  As I said, it's the coach lining that is THE challenge.

John

Hi John. Phoenix were at the scale forum show on Saturday , but I thought that it would wait until Ihad a coach to paint. Obviously you are quite correct about being dedicated, and that is why RTR coaches aren't available. I have so many model ideas my head is like Clapham Junction in the rush hour. And I also have an allotment to get ready for winter, then I will have some more time for models.  all the best. Kevin

My brain is that way too.  I have a load of things on my to do list - locos, track planning and turnout building.  To top it all off I've also branched into O gauge. :roll:

John

Hi John.   I did think about a very uncharacteristic O gauge layout one time, I wrote to the O Gauge Society, but I got "Short Shrift" they must have thought that I was mad? when I said that I wanted to build a small terminus on a shelf.  all the best. Kevin

That doesn't seem at all uncharacteristic Kevin.  Most O gauge layouts I've seen, and what's in my head, are small terminus.  That said, I reckon I'll need all of the 16ft I have left in my basement - hardly a shelf.  I was reading an article in an old MRJ the other day about someone building an O gauge layout in a grandfather clock - now that's uncharacteristic.

John