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Scalescenes Large Overall Roof......for Granby - Scalescenes Building Kits. - More Practical Help - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Sun Jan 15th, 2012 06:48 am
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gdaysydney
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Looking good John :thumbs



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 Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2012 04:31 am
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John Dew
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Thanks Dave

So today I did some glazing

The glazing sheets are printed out on transparencies



Then they have to be cut out.....Second time round I left a larger margin to allow for alignment problems....the overlap is covered by the lower level roof top layers


They have to be folded along the ridge line.....to help I very very lightly scored first

Once that is done there are various paper cover strips (on the right above) which have to be glued on 




So the first two panels are on. The wavy ridge line sadly shows all my mis cuts on the arches! Initially there was some consternation when the centre mark on each panel would not line up with an arch. After briefly considering cutting the panels to fit I realised that the designer never intended this to happen.....it would have helped to mention this in the instructions though.

Despite all the hassle I am reasonably happy so far. Once the final lower roof panels are in place I think these two modules will look ok.




However there are 3 major issues I have to resolve. I will detail the first two when the roof is finally tested in position but right now I have to address the issue of visibilty that Pete (Wogga) raiseed

The glazing is actually quite opaque so very little can be seen of the platform detail. Furthermore I am sufficiently realistic to know the roof will have to be lifted clear from time to time. Fully glazed there are no handholds and I have already discussed the flimsiness of the end gable. 

I am going to leave the third and fourth module unglazed......the tops of the arches can be covered with the girder cover strips for the underside of the arches




To keep the unglazed arches stable I will still need to glue in a lower roof.......the question is whether I can reduce the front section by say 50%......the shot above shows no front lower roof at all.

So tomorrow the plan is to finish the roofing on the three rear modules and two of the front modules......then I can put it on the platforms and make a few decisions!





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 Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2012 06:15 am
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If I may be so bold, John.  I had a similar problem of lifting off my roundhouse for maintenance.  I kept the whole structure as one and fastened it from below with screws into to the wall columns.  I marked the bases of the columns on the base board and the drilled holes from above.

Once it was complete, I put it in place and screwed it from below with a drill driver.  I had to get Wendy to hold it in place so I could get enough resistance to press against - but they love to help, don't they?  ;-)



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 Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2012 08:25 am
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Petermac
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It's looking very good John and I know what you mean about things not lining up.  There are times when you don't quite understand what was designed into the building and what to us, may seem obvious, isn't necessarily the case.  I too have had a couple of similar problems trying to work out where things should go.

Regarding the strengthening of the main roof arches - are there no "tie beam" girders between the arches ?  I'd have thought there would at least be a ridge beam and one sitting on the wall pillars, another where the mid line is on the glazing, yet another where the glazed sheets join the solid planked panels and a final one mid way down that panel.  There might also have been a diagonal tie "rod" somewhere in the two end bays to "triangulate" the structure.

As you've currently shown it, engineering wise, the roof cladding is the only structure that holds it all square and together.  I'm almost sure that can't be the case. :roll:



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 Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2012 12:19 pm
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Hi John,

I don,t know if these photo,s will help. York station roof  in 1987.

Goodluck with the build.

Derek.






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 Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2012 12:30 pm
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shunter1
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Another one of Wavely roof, Different style, Again photo taken in 1987.

Derek.



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 Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2012 01:15 pm
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Petermac
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Those shots of York prove me wrong regarding the tie beams Derek (:oops:) although I do notice there is one just above the wall supporting pillars and it seems a tie rod along the glazed area.

I wonder - if you study the shots carefully, there may be a second arch above the internal planked cladding which may have some kind of longitudinal strengthening. :roll::roll:

I'll be there myself at the end of February if you can wait John ......................:lol::lol::lol:



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 Posted: Tue Jan 17th, 2012 04:22 pm
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John Dew
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Thanks for posting those shots Derek they were very helpful.......and the kit does basically follow the principles at York except the Arch columns are not freestanding.

You are correct Peter other than glueing the columns to the support walls there is nothing to prevent fore and aft movement until the roof panels are glued in. Once that is done even with just the thin card bottom panel they are surprisingly rigid......once the medium card laminate is glued on they will be very stable. I am pretty confident that omitting a couple of glazing panels will not affect this..........I will find out later today :shock:



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 Posted: Thu Jan 19th, 2012 06:10 am
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John Dew
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I wanted to delay making a final decision on visibilty until the roof was in situ. First I had to complete the lower roof

This consists of a three layer laminate.......the first layer of thin card which provides the ceiling you have already seen. The next two layers are made up of a sheet of Medium Card (1mm) to which is glued a printed tile sheet 



You can see the tile sheet has a border on three sides to be glued and wrapped round the medium card base (on the left with the dotted score lines).

This is fine if the roof consists of only one module.......which is actually pretty unlikely......otherwise you have to trim off one or both side borders. The base sheets, with borders, exactly fit the arch spacing so you are left with a very narrow strip of base uncovered.

I resolved this after some gnashing of teeth by cutting not only the border but a couple of strips of tile off as well




Then I laid off the next sheet by one tile strip so I could later cover the gap with a 3 tile strip.

A picture is worth a thousand words: 

 



Not being very practical.... putting the first board on (fortunately on the non viewing side) was a horror story.....PVA.......Super Glue.....Blue Tac (or the Canadian Equivalent) .........that was when I lost the lights

Then the penny dropped......using the score lines...... pre bend the panels before gluing. If you slightly over bend fitting is then a breeze

Fitting the cover strips was much easier than I had expected and the joins are barely visible......I screwed up on courses but again on the non visible side.

So now the moment of truth .....lifting it up ( quite a weight now) and testing in position

Here is a before shot



One support wall will rest on the brick wall in the fore ground........the lower level storage siding (note the extremely finely judged clearance) will be covered by a removeable street scene on foamboard   

This aerial shot gives a better idea




The left hand support wall rests on the narrow platform nearest the window  

 





Temporarily in position........well Three fifths! A module still has to be made and fitted covering the Pannier and Siphon. I have to resolve the type of support wall on both sides.....next post

The ply on the left with the masking tape is the station concourse which will also require a module but this will be attached to the station and separate from the roof



For now I am trying to focus on the visibilty issue. I had already decided to omit the last two glazing panels but I hoped to be able to complete the lower roof panels.......now it is in position it is obvious that visibilty will be severely restricted if I do this........I am vacillating between leaving the arches completely uncovered.....maximum viewing but 3 not very secure arches......or the classic Canadian Compromise......a half size roof panel that will give visibilty to two of the platforms and provide some stability to the arches

Comments will be much appreciated......I can provide more photos if required.

No matter how many traumas or however undecided I become ......I always try to finish on a positive note so I have left the best shot to the last

I knew this puppy was going to be quite large but I hadnt realised quite how large.....including the station area it will be 1.25m long when complete........to a degree it does (or will) dominate the layout but that was always the plan.....after all it is called Granby

Still lots to do but perhaps the beginning of the end?


 



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 Posted: Thu Jan 19th, 2012 08:39 am
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And suddenly, we realise just how big this structure is !! :shock::shock::shock:  Wow John - it's enormous but extremely impressive.

It really does look the part - a real "main" station building rather than the often seen "big country halts". :thumbs

Having got those panel in place, are you happy with the stability now ?

Regarding viewing, what about some Evergreen / Plastruct girders fitted between the arches for strength, then make that section of the roof removable ?

You'd need a sort of lip around the roof edge so you could simply "plug" the roof section into the space.  A bit like hatches around access points on model boats where the superstructure lifts off but the lip prevents the entry of water.  (Do you know, my mind has gone a complete blank - I can't for the life of me remember what those hatch lips are called although I've built many of them in my former life !!! :oops::oops::oops::oops:)



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 Posted: Thu Jan 19th, 2012 02:46 pm
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Hi John its looking great.

That roof issue and seeing your loco,s /platforms?

Perhaps some glazing inserts into the tiled roof sections if possible.

A very bad paint picture to give a rough idea of what I mean.

regards, Derek.



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 Posted: Sat Jan 28th, 2012 06:57 am
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John Dew
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Oops....... I see I havent replied......my apologies

Its very very solid Peter......the arches on the last module waver a bit but currently there is no roof at all there.
I have been wracking my brains about the spray guard as well Peter.....I keep thinking of gunwhale but thats not right. There used to be little vshaped ridge on Enterprise Dinghies for just that purpose. In North America we call the hood over the companionway a Dodger (Spray Hood? in the UK) but I am not sure about hatches.......and these are sailboats anyway:oops:............back to the topic:


Thanks for the sketch Derek........that may well have worked at the beginning but i am not sure I want to start cutting holes in the roof now. I have enough problems making a clean cut on a flat surface!


 
A quick update as I prepare to complete the last module. The support walls for the first three modules were identical. The fourth and final module will butt on to a separate (fifth) roof module attached to the station building, so the supports are a bit different

In the shot below you can see the space for the module on the foundation wall. The large white square next to it represents the footprint of the main station building The two unfinished platforms will join on to the station concourse
 


Ideally I want to use a single storey wing of the main station building as the support there but I am a little uneasy about the weight and stability when the roof is lifted if there is a building attached......so I am still contemplating that issue

I have a different problem with the support wall on the other side





The wall has to be straight and thus runs over the edge of the curved platform. I wanted to come up with a solution that was functional from a cardboard engineering aspect but also look credible from a modelling point of view. 

The walls are normally made from two sheets of thick card (2mm) laminated together. I have cut out a flyover to support the last arch and added 3 further layers of card making a  very solid 10mm thick laminated wall.




Just enough clearance for the tallest Loco/Carriage.

The roof over the concourse will be supported by a similar wall and the flyovers will meet creating an arch. Its probably somewhat unlikely but will hardly be seen from most viewpoints because of the surrounding buildings.

Here is the wall detailed ready to go





On the left is the flyover with some girder paper and stone lintels.....once I have it in position I will add some smoke stains.

You can see how substantial the glueing point is on the right hand side.

You may have noticed that the third platform is not only narrow....

It is also an island with no visible means of access to the other two platforms

I had originally planned to have a dog legged footbridge which would have made a neat feature but I had not allowed for the width of the arch support columns......................so Scalescenes to the rescue with their Subway Kit.

I will go the whole 9 yards with the concourse end with submerged steps etc but it is too late to excavate the platform so I am merely suggesting its presence with the tiled wall and wayout sign.......there will be a stub wall surrounding the imaginary stairs.

Luggage........a luggage lift on the non viewing side.

Three arches and one support wall to make and I am almost there.
 



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 Posted: Sat Jan 28th, 2012 07:10 am
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Peter, after a Googlefest, I've found that the lip under a hatch which prevents deck wash from entering is called the frame.  :shock:

Looks like you've just about got it sorted, John.  :thumbs



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 Posted: Sat Jan 28th, 2012 09:51 am
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Petermac wrote:  
You'd need a sort of lip around the roof edge so you could simply "plug" the roof section into the space.  A bit like hatches around access points on model boats where the superstructure lifts off but the lip prevents the entry of water.  (Do you know, my mind has gone a complete blank - I can't for the life of me remember what those hatch lips are called although I've built many of them in my former life !!! :oops::oops::oops::oops:)



Sorry, didn't spot this one, it may properly be called  'coaming'?

http://bit.ly/wibprQ   or   http://bit.ly/w05lFV

 

Is that what you meant?

 
John, your card and paper work is looking very convincing, I'll have to up my standards a bit.....:thumbs


Doug

 

[Hi-jack apology....:oops:]



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 Posted: Sat Jan 28th, 2012 11:45 pm
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John Dew
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Thanks guys. I am afraid you flatter me Doug......I dont believe I will ever approach your combination of precision and artistry......but it is very good of you, nevertheless, to write that. After all it was you who persuaded me to continue to pursue the card route ......I still refer to the post you wrote on achieving square corners before "wrapping and glueing"  or is it the other way round?

After all this naval architecture discussion  I suddenly relise that I am actually carrying out Peter's lip or rim suggestion except it is the entire roof including support walls that will fit into the rim

The coaming on the foundation wall is slightly raised and once the position is finalised I am going to glue little stubs of card disguised as newspaper stacks on the far side of the platform on the window side. So both vertical walls will have checks/guides and I am planning someting similar where the last arch meets the station roof........so I guess great minds think alike Peter even though its taken me a while to realise that:oops:

Regards



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 Posted: Sun Jan 29th, 2012 02:34 pm
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This is really looking great, John. Is there anywhere to fit a micro camera under the roof? Only thinking that could be used to allow you to see what is happening inside. A bit like Dave's YMR module where he had several cameras and monitors for the viewing public to see inside the shed, etc.

Just a thought.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 29th, 2012 05:16 pm
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John Dew
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Thanks Geoff.....glad you like it. Thats a good idea about the camera I shall investigate:thumbs



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 Posted: Tue Jan 31st, 2012 03:32 pm
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"Coaming" is exactly the word I was looking for Doug - thanks for helping an old man out. :cheers:cheers:cheers

I see you are well underway with a girder supported opening to take the tracks through the wall John.

Before I got that far, my initial reaction was to put another roof arch in there with a gable like the end gable. :roll:  I don't know if the span can be reduced by re-scaling (I suspect not) but it would have created some very interesting angles and gulleys with 2 arched, glazed rooves joining at that point (The Crystal Palace springs to mind).............:hmm  However, what you're doing looks like an ideal solution provided the angle of the track doesn't demand an unrealistic single span for a horizontal, unsupported girder.

It really is turning into a fantastic building. :thumbs



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 Posted: Tue Jan 31st, 2012 03:46 pm
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Petermac - It really is turning into a fantastic building. :thumbs

 

Woteesed, but what do you expect of a man who can sail a yacht around Canada? {....still sure you don't need a galley slave/foc'sle hand, John?}

 

Doug





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 Posted: Wed Feb 1st, 2012 03:39 am
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John Dew
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Petermac wrote: I see you are well underway with a girder supported opening to take the tracks through the wall John.

Before I got that far, my initial reaction was to put another roof arch in there with a gable like the end gable. :roll:  I don't know if the span can be reduced by re-scaling (I suspect not) but it would have created some very interesting angles and gulleys with 2 arched, glazed rooves joining at that point (The Crystal Palace springs to mind).............:hmm  However, what you're doing looks like an ideal solution provided the angle of the track doesn't demand an unrealistic single span for a horizontal, unsupported girder.

 


Thanks guys.........................I thought of a number of solutions Peter but opted for the easiest I am afraid. I think a curved roof may be feasible and would have been both more elegant and, I suspect, realistic.

The span will not actually appear to be unsupported..... it will meet a reverse image of itself which will be the support wall for the station roof module.

dooferdog wrote: Woteesed, but what do you expect of a man who can sail a yacht around Canada? {....still sure you don't need a galley slave/foc'sle hand, John?}

Doug


I am afraid you flatter me again Doug. My sailing is confined to a rectangle approx 250 miles x 35 miles...... that would barely circumnavigate Vancouver Island (which I havent attempted) let alone Canada

The Galley position (not slave I assure you) is happily still filled. We can however always accomodate additional hands. When you book your holiday through the Rockies send me a PM and Jess will be ready (stocked up with Cornflake packets and scalpel blades)

Kind Regards






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