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Petermac
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Some of you may recall that I obtained some HO scale trams in UK last year.

I've decided to build a small tramway that can be added to the main Maxmill Junction layout when (and if) that ever gets off the stocks.

Having studied many tram photo archives, I'm not at all sure they are HO scale - they certainly don't look out of place scale-wise against my "OO" Metcalfe buildings.  That's a huge relief because I really didn't want a module, tramway and main layout as separate units.

I'm not doing anything too fancy in terms of trackwork.  There is a "proper" grooved girder system available in the States (at a price) but I thought I'd just use Code 100 peco track.

As the pointwork will be small radius and curves can be fairly tight, I thought I'd use set-track for speed and ease. 

Does the geometry of set-track pointwork give an accurate double track formation or is it miles apart ?

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as far as I am aware Peter it should give 50mm centres,but remember Tramways could be more or even less depending on the highway system.

:thumbs:lol::cool:

Petermac
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Thanks Owen.

Yes, there is a problem using railway track for trams.  The 6ft way would be too wide for street centre trams but to change that, I'd throw the geometry out for the junctions.  I think I'll just have to accept the inaccuracy and call it "modellers licence" otherwise I'd have to build everything.  I doubt even Templot could cope with that ...........

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Peter youi could probably cut back the curved toe rails to bring the two rails closer together done carefully you could probably get the rails very close together within your road width limits.

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I've moved this thread here from "Member's Layouts" because it's trams but I'm not sure it's the right place.  What do you think ?

Here's a simple plan for the tram layout:


  The heavy black line represents double tram tracks.  The railway viaduct will carry the main "Maxmill Junction" feeds to the station and hide the access to the tram shed and fiddle yard.

Inspired by John Drew's wonderful "dark, dingy corner" near his canal and viaduct, and Dave Shakespeare's Tetley Mills, there will be a rather run-down Victorian mill - town setting with cobbled streets,  "back lanes" and yards.

Front left corner will be a Victorian wrought iron fenced park either with just formal flower beds or swings etc.

Along the back wall and thus in front of the roof-top level railway, will be the "raison d'etre" for the town - a substantial factory - or maybe a mill (the "dark satanic" variety)

The size of the tram system, yet to be fixed, will probably be in the region of 8ft x 4ft. on 2 boards

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looks reasonable to me Peter, an interesting build ,TRAMS for a change.

:doublethumb:lol::cool:

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Looks very interesting Peter

You will have lots of fun creating an industrial town scene........and, to quote Iain Rice, a tram system (like a canal) will make the perfect signature item.

I look forward to reading about it...............I assume the Mill will manufacture screws?:mutley

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Looks ok to me mate. At least you have a good stock of screws, so that bring the cost down on this a tad, :thumbs:mutley

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I'm looking forward to watching this one develop Peter. 

Last edited on Tue Jan 25th, 2011 12:24 pm by

Petermac
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Janner wrote: I'm looking forward to watching this one develop Peter. 

So am I John ..........................:roll::roll::mutley:mutley

I've been looking at a couple of suppliers of "proper" girder rail tram track - on in the States and another in Sweden:


http://www.trolleyville.com/trolleyville.shtml    Go to "Orr Street Track"

and in Sweden:

http://www.swedtram.se/eng/swedtrack/swedtrack.html

Swedtram apparently manufacture the rail for Trolleyville but not the turnouts.

It's all a bit pricey - the rail would cost £5.30 per metre ex the States and slightly dearer from Sweden but the real difference is in the points/turn-outs.  Ex the States, they are £9.35 but ex Sweden, they're a massive £33.21 !!!!  They're far better beasts from Sweden but I've got to do more research at both sources.  fortunately the Swedes speak English because I struggle a bit with my Swedish adverbs nowadays.................:mutley:mutley:mutley

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This layout is already intriguing me, Peter.  I think you're right in exploring the possibility of "proper" tram track as well.  What are the rough dimensions of the layout?

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Hi Peter

I was thinking about the street infill for your tramway......I notice you ignored my comment.....no doubt hoping it would go away.......it wont:mutley:mutley

I can remember trams in Liverpool and in the outer suburbs there were straight runs of ballasted track to the side of the the actual road but not in the type of urban setting you have sketched.

As you know I like plastic and there is no doubt the Wills Granite setts look the part but they are a pain to cut and install and in my case (Granby II) the result wasnt worth the effort so for the Brewery in Granby III you may recall I used Metcalfe Cobblestones




I had some leveling problems of my own making but overall the printed sheets were much easier to install particularly on curves and pointwork

However the point of this rambling email (my apologies) is that the setts should go two ways. By the platform and on the outside of the front rail you can see a retaining border of 3 courses at right angles to the main lay

There are strips are on the edges of the Metcalfe Sheets but I had to cut quite a few more and turn them thru 90o which was both time consuming and fiddly.............so fiddly that, as you can see I didnt do it for the centre infill and I am sure they should be there

I was wondering whether one could use Doofers Photoplus editing system and scan Scalescenes setts and manipulate the image and add side borders so the total image was a perfect fit for the infill.................this would make installation much easier and give a much crisper finished effect

When I eventually do my city goods yard I might try it......meantime I thought I would share the idea......to help with your planning:lol::lol:

Kind Regards

 

  

Petermac
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Thanks for the input John and no, I hadn't ignored your comment - I was just working out a suitable response !!!!  :mutley:mutley

You are, of course,  absolutely right about the way they did the tram tracks.  My memories are from Leeds and in the "suburbs" they had dedicated tram ways - either fenced off down the centre to the road or, more frequently, alongside the road.  These could, for all the world, have been railway tracks.  They had sleepers set in stone ballast and  used "I" section conventional railway type rails.

Once the trackwork entered the "built-up" parts of the town, then the tracks were the "tramtrack" grooved girder rail with stone setts which had a slight "drain" effect like the modern gutter. They were not fenced at all but the trams had those "cow-catcher" frames front and rear to scoop up any unsuspecting members of the public who might jaywalk.  My word, how things have changed since "Elf and Softy" came into being.  The road surface, depending on where it was, might have been cobbled or tarmac.  Both butted up to the setts you've shown in your photos.  The "groove-girder" rail profile was designed to stop the wheels cutting into and therefore damaging the road surface or stones getting jammed in point blades etc.

I've read of several systems to form the setts you describe from plasticard (with the difficulties you mention) to scribed DAS or similar modelling compound.  As you say, the major problem seems to be replicating those setts along the track side and most people just ignore them - to the detriment of the layout I think, as your shot so admirably shows.  Your idea of using Doug's Photoplus might just work ..............:roll:

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Peter,
        Having seen your trams,and now hearing about your plan and the research you're doing,I think this is going to be a very interesting thread to follow.I think Christine will be interested too,as she still maintains she wants a small n-gauge tram layout!!(Don't hold your breath for that one!:roll::lol::lol:)
   I hope your build is going to be very picture-intensive too,as I have to confess to a growing fondness for trams myself.
  ( It would be nice to see a modern outline tram layout based on present day Manchester!!)

Cheers,John.B.:thumbs


Petermac
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Research into tram modelling is proving somewhat interesting and very trying !!

I'm surprised at just how little interest in this aspect of modelling there is.  Many of the "manufacturers" have either closed down or been absorbed into other "small" orgainsations.  Most "companies" seem to be one-man hobbyists.  There don't seem to be any big players in the infra-structure field although one or two of the continental companies do market tramcar models.  The UK trams of the first half of the 20th century seem to have been almost totally bypassed.

As I said earlier in this thread, I'm particularly interested in what's available in the "grooved girder rail" field.  Most tram modellers (and there don't seem to be that many), use ordinary model railway track - I'm starting to understand why ......

I've found 3 companies making this grooved girder rail - 2 in the States and 1 in Sweden - although the Swedish one has some tie up withone of the US manufacturers.  I've contacted them all and had very prompt replies from the Swedes and 1 US site.  The other has replied to my e-mail saying that "it's his busy time just now so will get back to me when he has time" !!!!  How to gain satisfied customers eh and I thought in the States, the customer was king !! ? :shock::shock::shock::twisted:

With these 2 companies, the problem currently is one of cost - more to do with shipping 1 metre lengths of rail from the States or Sweden than the actual "off the shelf" prices although the Swedes do want a hefty margin on their pointwork.

I also contacted a model tram company based in Lancashire - twice !!    To date, I haven't even had the courtesy of a reply although I do know he's read my first e-mail !!!!

As standards in tram track are different to those of trains, using set-track isn't an option I want to use.  It would be "almost" fine with single track, but as soon as you double it, the trams would be far too far apart.  Also, the turnouts are the wrong radius.

It's frustrating when you read a book extolling the virtues of so-an-so's overhead traction poles or motor bogies with following comments like "no longer available",  "ceased manufacture when the owner died", "sadly ceased production many years ago" etc. etc. .

I'd have thought that either there's an opening there for an entrepreneur or there's no interest in modelling 19th century trams !!   I wonder which it is........

 Maybe if I were 20 years younger .......................................:roll::roll::roll:

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Oh dear I have obviously been influenced by Peters new enthusiasm for trams  :roll:.  I cannot explain it and it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever but I saw this on ebay and just had to have it . At least it was a good price , factory interior lighting fitted and can be used on the Llanynys line as it is the same gauge . Will have  to come up with an excuse for it to be there - perhaps the "American Tourist" standing on the Halt platform is also a tram enthusiast and has brought his own transport to inspect lines he visits , alternatively perhaps I have finally lost the plot altogether  .:lol:

 



Petermac
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I didn't realise "tramfluenza" was contageous Richard ..............:lol::lol::lol:

Looks like a good model. :thumbs

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I'm not starting any tram projects.
Too many of them about.

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Hi again,

I've been applying a little thought to "grooved girder rail". If you sourced some copper clad pcb type sleepers, could you not make up some "grooved girder rail" using lengths of bull-head rail, laid in their sides?

Just finkin'


Doug

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Thanks Doug and Martin. :thumbs

An interesting concept.   I thought bullhead rail was almost impossible to buy nowadays :hmm   Looking at the idea, the pointwork (some of which can be fairly complex in tramways), would worry me to death.  Given that I've never built my own trackwork, it might require a fair bit of practice before I could even consider points - if, in fact, they'd work using those twin rails.

I have ordered a "sample" of girder rail from Proto 87 in the States.  It's fine scale and that may not suit my trams and also, it works out at around £9 per metre of straight track. Watch out for photos when it arrives.

I'm still digging. :thumbs

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As Peter has already said finding suppliers for tram bits and pieces is somewhat difficult . There is a fair bit of HO/00 stuff around , probably the best one I have found so far is East Lancs Tram Supplies although they seem to be starting to cut back on the variety of stock they  carry and Terry Russell at Horsham specialises in O Gauge trams and accessories . There are others such as Alan Kirkman and a enthusiast site known as  Blackpool in a Box which obviously specialises in Blackpool seafront vehicles  with links to small suppliers plus one or two who concentrate on London Trams but all seem to be one man businesses. Just not a UK demand I presume but if you look at Sweden , Japan , USA and Germany where trams have seen much greater commercial use in real life and the systems have not had a break in continuity being rebuilt if suffering damage rather than scrapped like here then modelling trams has flourished . I think it was the Swedetram site which said they had 60 different trams available RTR .

I am still seeking a tram track in 0n30 but it looks as though I will either have to have it specially made or use railway track heavily disguised . I know it has been made in the past - just cannot seem to find it.

Petermac
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Swedtram was one of the suppliers I looked at for track Richard.  Prices were horrendous - £33 for a single turnout ex Sweden !!!

They do make a good range of continental trams but, like here in UK, most people seem to use railway track rather than the grooved girder tram track.  Making your own using an idea Martin (I think) mentioned with flat bottom and bullhead rail together would work but I jibbed when I thought about the points.  I just couldn't see me being able to make points with 2 rails - it's going to be tough enough with just one !!

As you say, tram layouts are certainly more popular both here on the Continent and in the States but I'm not sure that, even there, "flourishing" is the word that would spring to my mind !!

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I spent the housekeeping at an online auction site before I went to UK 10 days ago and had the proceeds delivered to my brother for me to bring back after my trip.

Those who are following this thread will know that I'm using Leeds City transport trams as the basis for my models.

I managed to acquire several, some at sensible prices, others slightly less so.  None of them is motorised but I did also buy a motor to try out on one of the "Horsfield" 4 wheel type EFE trams.  If that works OK, then other motors will arrive in France in due course.

Leeds bought 90 "Feltham" type trams from London when the capital closed it's tramways down.  They were much smarter, more modern trams than the more common Leeds "Horsfields" but, being much heavier, their routes were restricted.  They had two bogies and in addition to the weight restrictions, these bogies also prohibited routes with tight corners.

I remember we were always very excited if we were lucky enough to catch one - "look Mum, it's a London Tram" was the gleeful cry as we waited at the stop.

Here's a couple of shots of one posed infront of some Metcalfe high street kits and plonked on the Maxmill module for photographic purposes only.  Corgi "Original Omnibus Models" tram range.  Die cast so quite heavy and, IMHO, really good models for their price although the "people catchers" are a bit plastic looking and the windows leave a bit to be desired.







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How will these people carriers fit in with diesels from UK & USA & sound ? ( & I presume kettles!)

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It's my layout and I'll do what I like with it !!!!     Wait till you see the nuclear power station I'm planning .....:mutley:mutley:mutley:mutley:mutley

The trams will obviously fit in well with the kettles Sol but they'd just about gone by the steam/diesel transition.  I think around the late 50's Leeds got rid of the trams.  I'm planning a little poetic licence to give the trams an extra 10 years or so of life.  As the layout won't be portable, the only rivet counting critics to notice the time warp will be called Sol ............:It's a no no:lol::cheers

The US outline stuff is for my proposed shunting puzzle and won't come anywhere near these beasties. (ought I to change my name to Sam ?:roll::roll::roll:):mutley

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Petermac wrote:

I remember we were always very excited if we were lucky enough to catch one - "look Mum, it's a London Tram" was the gleeful cry as we waited at the stop.


That quote probably summarises one of the principal reasons we model......nostalgia....memories of yesteryear.

Thats a very neat model, Peter, of a rather smart tram. Much smarter than anything we had in Liverpool, even if it was second hand (previously owned we call it in North America)

Not sure about the Vernons advert I used to work for Littlewoods in a "former life"lol:

For someone who claims to have limited technical expertise I rather admire the casual but confident remark about installing motors......:roll:

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John Dew wrote:

Not sure about the Vernons advert I used to work for Littlewoods in a "former life"lol:



And I think my Dad must have paid your wages John - probably at the rate of a shilling a week.......... :lol::lol:

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 I won the 'pools' 3 times, i still have the cheques somewhere..........................they add up to about £2.50 :mutley

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Peter, Have you been on the Bordeaux trams, yet? I do fancy a visit.......

For those who don't know, they have an opening and closing system that collects power from between the tracks in areas of architectural interest where overhead lines are not allowed, and on bridges.


Doug

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I haven't Doug but Liz has.  She says they're great.

The pickup system is a modern version of the old central London conduit version with the power in trunking under the road surface - a sort of "Man-size" Scalextric.

Maybe a lunch in Bordeaux via tram sometime ....................?  :roll:

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Petermac wrote: Maybe a lunch in Bordeaux via tram sometime ....................?  :roll:


Only if you don't get drunk and sing the Marseillaise in your underpants this time.........:thumbs

[Liz can be the guide]

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This will certainly be a post I shall follow with great interest. Playing with trams is certainly something I would love to do in the long term.

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looks like Peter  has been bitten,hope it all works out mate,

:thumbs:thumbs:cool:

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I like the look of that Feltham tram Peter - didnt Leeds have a steam tram set up at some time ?

I think I will keep clear of HO/00 trams for now  but as I get more into it I dont think they will be ruled out completely as there certainly seems to be quite a lot of stuff around and although I have not looked at it in any detail motorising some of the available models or kits seeems quite straight forward.

I am still having trouble locating a supplier for the tram track I wanted - I got as far as placing an order with a well known supplier over here only to find three weeks down the line they have also decided not to continue stocking that range due to its cost and difficulty in getting a guarranteed supply and cannot complete the order.  They suggested I contact a very well known shop in Cornwall that they understood was one of the only firms who would now continue to supply. However although  CT has a little stock listed on the web  site there is not much so I suspect he may have or may be considering stopping as well.

My current two tram experiments are  " Cratch Tram Museum" a small N Gauge demonstration track and depot  for which I have got most of the component parts ready to be assembled - not doing anything fancy or complicated with it as its really just to see how practical it would be for me to develop the idea further , basically it will be an oval and museum building but not a lot of scenery initially. The other project is in 0n30 , two trams already obtained which are USA types but being converted to British appearance and two more on  the way from kits  (tram and trailer) which are British type. I am going to try an automatic shuttle system for these which will be very much another first for me

Progress updates as and when.

 

 

 

 

Last edited on Mon Mar 7th, 2011 04:28 pm by Wheeltapper

Petermac
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If you're going to use overhead pickup Richard, there's what seems like a very easy method of having a tram arriving at the tram stop triggering the one that's already waiting there to set off.

Have a look at this :    http://www.gordonstrams.net/index.htm

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Sorry Richard - I didn't answer your question regarding steam trams.

Leeds did indeed have steam trams, and horse-drawn ones too.  Horse drawn trams were used up until final electrification was completed in 1901 but a steam tram continued until 1902.

The end of trams in Leeds came in 1959.  I'll bet they regret it now ...............:roll:

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Following on from the photo of the ex London "Feltham" tram, here are some shots of the earlier Leeds "Horsfield" tram - named after one of the tramway chief engineers.

Firstly, in the final red livery:









This earlier blue livery lasted until the 1930's before the red came in although there was also a khaki livery during WW2:








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Petermac wrote: If you're going to use overhead pickup Richard, there's what seems like a very easy method of having a tram arriving at the tram stop triggering the one that's already waiting there to set off.

Have a look at this :    http://www.gordonstrams.net/index.htm



 

Actually I am in regular contact with Gordon  . He does fantastically well with his modelling considering he is nearly blind but freely admits there is stuff he just cannot do  , so we share a  similar problem as he also gets other modellers to help him out.

Interesting the steam trams outlasted the horse drawn . I have a feeling I have seen photos of a steamer pulling a 4 wheel horse tram - would itb have had a name like Horsfield on it ?

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I served on HMS Amazon with a CPO Artificer Harold Horsfield. He said his father was the black sheep of the family for having run away to sea instead of joining the family firm, and for encouraging his son to join the Navy......I wonder.....?  He was from up near Eskimo land , too...


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dooferdog wrote: I served on HMS Amazon with a CPO Artificer Harold Horsfield.
When was that Doug?

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Suonds like there might be an HMS Amazon reunion on the cards ..................:roll::roll::roll:  Either that or a Horsfield commemorative dinner ...:hmm

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That was 1977-80, Tim. A beefy red haired Northerner, a fine auxillaries 'tiffy'.


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Before my time, Doug!  I served with the Fourth Frigate Squadron (as it was ) between 1990-1993, spending many months in AMAZON in the Arctic, Antartic and Caribbean!

Sorry, Peter!  Back to your thread!

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Small world, small ships!

My favourite grey-funnel line steamer, save for the engine room fire in mid-Pacific. I wrote my first will a fortnight later...

Sorry, Peter, ole' ships y'know.

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(Sorry, again, Peter!) They were great ships, sleek and fast, and I was sorry to see them go. I conducted AMAZON's decommissioning ceremony in 1993 when she was handed over to the Pakistani Navy. She's still in service as PNS BABUR.

Back to trams....:mutley:mutley:mutley

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Well my trial pack of grooved girder rail finally arrived from the States today.

It's incredibly tiny - I could hardly see the groove with my old naked eye.  Not sure this stuff is going to be for me .................:hmm

This is what I got for £21:

A twin fret with with 16 lengths of straight rail, each just over 4" long (I have no idea why they're that length :roll::roll::???:)




One face is virtually flat and the other has the groove.  The idea is that you glue the flat side to your baseboard and infill the road with embossed plasticard to the surface you need.  I planned to use plaster or DAS and scribe it but there isn't the depth unless I solder it to copper-clad sleepers first .  It really is very fine stuff.

The grooves can be seen here - in extreme close-up !!!




In addition to the above, I bought what I thought was a complete point kit.  It now appears I will also need some curved rail sections to make it - another $12 !!!!

Here's the fret of the point components less the curved rails:




This shot might give an idea of scale.  The "prop" is a 30ml bottle of Tip-Ex fluid:




The fine detail I'm expected to work with ................




The colour difference is due to my lighting.  Photographing nickel-silver etches under a single electric light in a hurry isn't easy ..........

I'm starting to understand why most tram layouts use "ordinary" railway track .............

I may yet order a sample of the other type I found although I can't buy small quantities because the rail is in metre lengths.  On the other hand, I might buy a copy of Templot and do away with the grooved girder rail altogether ........but then that wouldn't be tram track would it ...:roll:

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I wish you luck Peter

This would appear to be the sort of exercise that drives me demented and running for the SLW

All you will need is patience and precision:mutley Qualities that sadly I lack:cry:

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John Dew wrote:

All you will need is patience and precision:mutley Qualities that sadly I lack:cry:

I thought that was all in my domain John.  Both are qualities I'm always eager to learn but somehow fail to grasp....................

I'm starting to think I ought to have stuck with the trains ...............

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John Dew wrote: I wish you luck Peter

This would appear to be the sort of exercise that drives me demented and running for the SLW


I would be going 'AAaaaghhhhhh!' at the same time. Good luck, Peter.

[It's Liz I feel sorry for......]


Doug

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Trams are not really my thing Peter, but yours look superb.

You look like you've got work work cut out with those etches. I can hardly see the grooves in the photos and they must be about 3 times full size :shock:

Do the parts screw together :pedal:roll::lol:

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Petermac wrote:
I'm starting to think I ought to have stuck with the trains ...............



Peter

Well if you do  decide you feel that way I will be more than happy to provide a  new home for your trams as I am really enjoying my exploration of this completely new field of the hobby .  I might even throw in my collection of model buses so you still had something to go on the module without all these problems with grooved rail having to be sorted out.

 

                                                                                                                               

      :mutley:mutley:mutley      :pedal

Last edited on Sat Mar 12th, 2011 07:45 pm by

Petermac
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I've sort of decided to go with this type of tram track - in spite of the fine detail.  I may yet regret it but the cost of the other was just too high for a "trial" bit.  I was surprised they wouldn't send me an off-cut to have alook at but there you are.

I've also been researching the product on a tram forum and, once you can master the size, it really does look great.


http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/172-the-grime-street-blog/page__st__30  (about half way down the page)


With this in mind, I'm going to build 2 short "test" strips - 1 gluing the rails to the baseboard, road from poured plaster and scribed cobbles.  As I said earlier, I'm concerned that the plaster layer will be too thin although that's what the guy in the above link did.

The second I'm laying on sleepers to give added depth to the plaster.  I've just received my 1.6mm sleepers from C & L.  Copperclad in lengths and "timber" in a pack of 100.  I was surprised that the "timber" sleepers are in fact, plastic !!!  I now have the problem of gluing the N/S rails to plastic sleepers !!!!

Watch this space ................

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Petermac wrote:   I was surprised that the "timber" sleepers are in fact, plastic !!!  I now have the problem of gluing the N/S rails to plastic sleepers !!!!

Watch this space ................


Peter, in the real big rail world, rail itself has chairs & I think with model rail, they, the equivalent chairs are slid on the rail and a special glue does the trick.

Now in your case,, you may need a contact type cement to stick N/S to plastic.  Google  "glueing metal to plastic" to see what is available.

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Thanks Ron.  I think I read gluing advice somewhere on C&L's site - on the other hand, maybe not !! :roll:

I'll Google it and see what comes up. :thumbs

There is an alternative - there's a site in Canada that does genuine wood sleepers:

http://www.handlaidtrack.com

Maybe some other UK supplier does 1.6mm thick real wood sleepers .............

 


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:hiPeter, Just caught up with your Tram layout build, Great stuff!

I have early memories of London trams running along Fulham High Street in the mid fifties, As kids we used to love the showers of sparks from the overhead pickups of the trams. :mutley

Regarding your C+L plastic sleepers :sad: Could you return them and change them over to the 0.8mm ply ones, Glue 2 together and you have your 1.6mm thick sleepers in wood.

Just a thought.

Regards,

Derek

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shunter 1 wrote:

Regarding your C+L plastic sleepers :sad: Could you .............. change them over to the 0.8mm ply ones, Glue 2 together and you have your 1.6mm thick sleepers in wood.
...........................

I hadn't thought of that Derek ..........:hmm:hmm

Not sure I'd bother returning them - they were only just over £4 but if the 0.8 ones are really timber, then that might be a good wheeze .......

Thanks. :thumbs

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Petermac wrote: shunter 1 wrote:

Regarding your C+L plastic sleepers :sad: Could you .............. change them over to the 0.8mm ply ones, Glue 2 together and you have your 1.6mm thick sleepers in wood.
...........................

I hadn't thought of that Derek ..........:hmm:hmm

Not sure I'd bother returning them - they were only just over £4 but if the 0.8 ones are really timber, then that might be a good wheeze .......

Thanks. :thumbs


:thumbsHi Peter, They are timber :thumbs On their site, Go into their Timber Tracks section, They also do some very tasty track and point panels in Timber.

Regards,

Derek

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The problem is Derek - the "OO Gauge thick" sleepers are also listed under "timber sleepers" with nothing to say they are plastic. :cry::cry:

I've asked them to confirm that the 0.8mm are in fact timber, explaining my problem.  I've also asked them if they have a recommended glue for the plastic to N/S rail joint.  I don't want to use too many copperclad ties as this would defeat the object of getting some depth between the baseboard and rail top.  I was planning to cut the timber sleepers into "plates" leaving the track centre free of obstruction between each copperclad.

They were quick off the mark last time so maybe tomorrow will bring some answers.

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I'm reliably informed by that excellent chap now running C & L Finescale (Pete Llewellyn) that contact adhesive will glue my N/S rail to their plastic sleepers.

Unfortunately, it's just about the only adhesive missing from my "glue box" so I'll have to wait until I go into town later on this week. (I have to say, I do have my doubts but we'll see)

He did say that, as it works, there's no need for me to order the 0.8mm sleepers Derek so he sounds pretty confident.............:roll::roll:

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The Maxmill Electric Tramway Company is delighted to announce that it has acquired the valuable real estate property known as "Chocolate Pudding Lane" together with a selection of rolling stock and vehicles.

Chocolate Pudding Lane was designed and built by Geoff R and played an important part in the success of the YMR show last September drawing crowds of admirers of all ages.

The METC plan to extend both the underground and main line facilities of Chocolate Pudding Lane by incorporating  it in the multi-facet passenger transport system of Maxmill Town and surrounding areas.

I hope you will be as pleased to revisit this remarkable tube station as I was.

Watch this space for progress reports over the next few days.


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So does this mean Leeds will aquire its own Underground System ? :lol:

Anyway I am glad the layout  has found a new home - will you be keeping the "Mind the Doors" or translating into French.

Incidentally have solved the problem of which type of tram track to use . That is to pick a prototype like the Kinver Light Railway which ran from Stourbridge to Kinver in Staffordshire with the route roughly in three sections . One third normal street tramway with rails embedded in the road , one third on the grass verge and the remainder cross country on standard railway track . So whichever type of track you have you pick the appropriate section to model .

It was ideal for  intensive service as trams from all over the Black Country  and even Birmingham provided through excursions to Kinver as well as the lines own trams carrying upto 14000 passengers a day which meant that the trams often had to run in uncoupled pairs just to get the quantity of vehicles along the line that wished to use it.

Watch this space !!! 

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Sorry for the late reply Richard - I've been "otherwise occupied" since I got back from UK.

Leeds will indeed have a new underground system.  Strange as it may seem, it's loosely based on the smaller system in London and no, it will remain a "tube" rather than a "metro" so no language lessons are required for the sound chip. :roll::roll::roll:

I did manage to re-assemble Chocolate Pudding Lane and give it a test run to explain why SWMBO can't buy any meat for the next 3 months ..........

There are one or two problems and some very slight transport damage - no doubt due to the rough seas between the Humber and Zeebrugge (it was blowing a force minus 2 :lol::lol::lol::lol:)................................:hmm  Isn't that what people claim nowadays so they can sue someone ?

I am about to enquire of the previous landowner but I suspect there's been some "ground heave" during the move (London's boulder clay is well known for it).

It runs well with the first two cars but, try as I might, I can't keep the 3rd and 4th cars on the rails.  I suspect that, having nothing inside them other than what EFE put in there when they were produced, they're rather light and something must be kicking a bogie off at some point.  Maybe the outer "power" rail on the station approach is to blame - it does seem slightly higher on the platform section than on the run in.

Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy to be eating dry bread until Christmas.

I'll try to take some photos this week - my kids go home tomorrow so I'll need something to cheer me up ........ 

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That is a pity about the sound chip I was looking forward to hearing something to the effect of "Fermez Les Portes" in a Yorkshire Dialect     :lol:.

 

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I thought you might like to see some more photos of Geoff R's wonderful "Chocolate Pudding Lane" tube module now that I seem to have sorted out the derailing problem.  A combination of "express running" and a rogue track pin hitting the side of a bogie - at least I hope that's all !!  It now runs without derailing although I do have some tweaking to do to the timings ....................

Another PM to the builder and former owner may be required.

I've also taken a short vid which I'll post once I find out how to upload vids (:roll:) - just to remind you of the "Mind the Doors" for those who were nearly driven insane by it last September !!

However, here's the photos to start with -

First, the above ground station building and busy road:




The crowded platform:




"Ave yer got the price of a cuppa love ?" :




The train arrives (unfortunately, some careless giant has knocked the destination board off the ceiling narrowly missing the mini-skirted girl :oops:):




Bang on time:




Sorry about the small depth of field - I should have used a tripod and manual exposure !!!!

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A fine acquisition, Peter.  :thumbs   Email me if you get stuck uploading the vids.

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Thanks for posting the pictures Peter......looking forward to the video

I imagine you can screw the destination board back:lol:

Once again congratulations on your acquisition............so glad the module went to a good home

Kind Regards

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I'm just going away for a short holiday while my 33 second video uploads into You Tube - there's only around 103 minutes left and it seems to have been going since yesterday already !!! :twisted::twisted::twisted:

How long do these darned videos take to upload .....................? !!!

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OK - let's try this -

After 2 years, 7 months 3 weeks, 2 days and 28 hours, I've finally uploaded the vid onto You Tube. :twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:

hope I can post it here ...............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ind8m_w1W5A

Agh - that's just a link !!  I'll see if it works - don't go away ...........................:roll::roll:

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Well it does take you there but believe me, it will be some time before I upload another vid.  It takes a crazy amount of time from here - in excess of 2 hours for those 40 odd seconds. :???::???:

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Awesome......well worth the wait................you may well have another career path:mutley

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Great to see Chocolate Pudding Lane again,and to hear once more..."Mind The Doors" that drove us all crackers at the show!:lol:
  Its good that the layout has found a good home with an appreciative new owner.Nice one,Peter!:thumbs


Cheers,John.B.:thumbs

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Is this what you were after, Peter?


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Wheeltapper wrote:  ...............................................................................

Incidentally have solved the problem of which type of tram track to use .............................................. One third normal street tramway with rails embedded in the road , ........................................................

Sorry Richard - I meant to question this but forgot ...........:oops::oops:

There's the rub - "normal street tramway" - which track are you using to embed in the road ?

I may be too pedantic but, having seen Peco rails used as tram track, at "OO" gauge it looks a bit like that - "railway track".

Creating that grooved girder profile is, to me,  the big problem.  There are quite a few possibilities but none look spot on when buried in tarmac or stone setts to my eye. Fine elsewhere but lacking "something" once you put it in a road surface.  That's why I looked at the two offerings from the States - "Electric Avenue" and the "Orr Track" system.

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MaxSouthOz wrote: Is this what you were after, Peter?



Yes Sir - 'tiz :doublethumb


How did you do that ? :hmm

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That,s a really good vid Peter.

Can you post some more ?

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I'll email you the destructions, Peter.

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Many thanks Max and John - NO !!!!!! :mutley:mutley

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Peter,just a thought ,have you looked at slot car track? it might just be the thing for your tram system,

:thumbs:lol::lol::cool:

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Petermac wrote: Wheeltapper wrote:  ...............................................................................

Incidentally have solved the problem of which type of tram track to use .............................................. One third normal street tramway with rails embedded in the road , ........................................................

Sorry Richard - I meant to question this but forgot ...........:oops::oops:

There's the rub - "normal street tramway" - which track are you using to embed in the road ?

I may be too pedantic but, having seen Peco rails used as tram track, at "OO" gauge it looks a bit like that - "railway track".

Creating that grooved girder profile is, to me,  the big problem.  There are quite a few possibilities but none look spot on when buried in tarmac or stone setts to my eye. Fine elsewhere but lacking "something" once you put it in a road surface.  That's why I looked at the two offerings from the States - "Electric Avenue" and the "Orr Track" system.


Ah - caught out . What I meant was I have solved the problem by picking the section that had normal railway track ( in this case Stourton to Kinver ) on which to base the model. So normal model railway track will be correct as far as following prototype is concerned.

Change of subject - just watched the video . Apart from wondering if the train driver is an ex RN Aircraft Carrier  Catapult Operator - its very good . Did you have to get a special export permit to take that bit of our heritage out the country ? At least the other train from there is safely tucked up here in retirement and will not be following its compatriot into exile. !!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

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I did say I still have a few things to tweak ....................:roll::roll:

I've yet to master the electronic controls regarding braking/acceleration and Max/Min speed but don't knock it Richard - this is supposed to be Leeds afterall.:cheers

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owen69 wrote: Peter,just a thought ,have you looked at slot car track? it might just be the thing for your tram system,

:thumbs:lol::lol::cool:

I've never given it a thought Owen .................:hmm

I have no idea how things have changed since the days of Scalextric and plastic track.  If it's still similar, then I would imagine the conductors (i.e. the actual slot) would be way over scale plus I didn't think the "slots" were available separately. :roll::roll:

Nevertheless Owen, it's certainly worth some research.  Thanks  :thumbs

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Here's a motorised EFE Leeds Horsfield tram.

Currently wired for 2 rail conventional pick-up but I would like to go for overhead when I get around to building the layout, particularly as Leeds used bow collectors so keeping contact with the overhead won't have the problems associated with pole collectors.

The motor in this one is from a well know auction site and is, I think, made by the now defunct BEC,  but in future, I plan to use Halling motors from Austria.






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Where will you put the chip?  :pedal

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I haven't actually decided whether to stay with DC or go for DCC with the trams yet John. :hmm

If I use overhead pick-up, I won't have any polarity problems but it's apparently not recommended for DCC.  Don't ask me why but that's what I've read.  Maybe the occasional loss of power if the pole comes "unwired" could upset the decoder settings ......:roll:

Another advantage of overhead is that, as many of the trams are only 4 wheel, it doubles the pick-up area.

The down side is that these small motors are not the smoothest in the world - even the Halling ones are only 3 pole although they do have a flywheel to help.  Slow running is therefore, a bit "iffy".

As you hinted, hiding the chip might be difficult although not impossible if I used a mini-chip.

In "OO" most people seem to use 2 rail and a cosmetic overhead whereas in "O", prototypical overhead colleting is far more common.  I suspect that has a lot to do with keeping the trolley pole on the wires ............  That's one reason I chose Leeds and the bow collectors.

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Hi Peter
As you are aware I have only recently joined the forum and as my interest is in trams rather than railways I have been looking through the posts to see who is modeling them. So I was pleased to get as far as your proposed tram layout post.
Now I have joined this thread fairly late but there are some posts I would like to address.
Corgi Trams.
Corgi seems unaware that changing the livery on a single standard model does not make it a different tram. The alleged Glasgow tram is actualy a three widow body and the only trams in Glasgow with three window bodies were ex-Paisley trams. Most of these were cut down to single deckers to work the Duntocher (No 20) route. So although the Corgi tram may have been seen working in Glasgow it was one of only five in a fleet of one thousand plus so not really typical. As for Leeds the situation is actualy worse as the only legitimate claim is the ex-LCC Felthams. There were no 3 window cars in the Leeds fleet. Corgi apear to have taken a stock Hurst Nelson tram and hoped that nobody will notice that it’s wrong more often than right.


Leeds Bradford through running. Leave this well alone as there were two track gauges involved and the trams changed from Leeds standard gauge to Bradfords four foot at Stanningley Bottom by running over a special track and having spacers put on sliding axles. Mind you 16.5 mm is nearer Bradfords gauge than Leeds.
 
 
You put up a picture of some trackwork being made. Here’s an older one, bear in mind that this is only half of the junction. Something like that needs at least a clear space of 30x30cm. A big road junction in a layout.
 
 
[img]">

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Fancy building that junction let alone wiring it , if the tram pickups are off the rails only.

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Hi Ron
So now you know why tram layouts are either prototype "rail & overhead", or, simple.:mrgreen:

Jim

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A question.... are the individual components of the 12"/1ft jobby cast steel or are they fabricated? I admire and sympathise with the pattern-makers/moulders if they are indeed cast...
Doug

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As far as I'm aware Doug, the frogs were cast - to several "standard" designs to cater for the various junctions although, incredibly seeing that shot of a "Grand Union" junction, there was not a huge range required.

The rails were rolled steel, again to a fairly "standard" design.

From that, you'll understand they tended to make the track plan fit the components rather than the other way round. :thumbs

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Hi Jim
Thanks for your input regarding the trams. :cheers

As you rightly say, very few of the diecast models are accurate for a given tramway and I'd agree that the "Horsfield" is probably a "Hurst Nelson" in disguise.  Probably the windows were easier to clean on the Horsfiled .............:roll::roll::roll:

The problem is, tramway modelling - at least British outline tramway modelling - is very much a fringe activity.  The tooling costs of producing anything other than a "generic" model, would be prohibitive and only have a market of a few hundred models - certainly nothing near what would be required to make business sense to the likes of Corgi.  Maybe that's why there are so few tram modelling suppliers - only around 2 or 3 for the UK market.  There simply isn't a market !!!

To me, the Hurst Nelson is extremely similar to the Horsfield in overall appearance - in fact, I wonder if Mr Horsfield simply modified the bodywork slightly to fit in with his "Leeds" ideal.

The Feltham was a unique design, and following the demise of London trams, they were disposed of throughout Britain so it's a model of that tram in particular rather than that "type" of tram, and could ligitimately  carry the livery of wherever they ended up.

From my railway modelling threads, you'll have realised I'm not a purist !!!   The Corgi "Horsfield" is close enough to what I remember as a nipper and, more importantly, it's available "ready made" so all I have to do is motorise it.  I doubt there will be many people visiting my attic here in France who would know one end of a Leeds tram from another ..............;-)

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Thank you, Peter, a sort of 'Set Track for rupture-lovers'.....
Doug

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Hi Peter
Your comments are spot on which is why I am building card trams and have started to produce my own kits. Kits meaning a collection of drawings I can print out, (Ready painted.) and build, as almost nobody these days is doing Glasgow. Currently I am having as much difficulty with the buildings as with the trams. Do YOU know anyone doing tenements in 00?
Luckily enough I have found Elro who produce some limited interest Glasgow specials and their construction techniques are sound and give excellent models when correctly built so I can use the methods as a starting point.

Once I have the Glasgow trams sorted I will have a look at other cities and towns but that will have to wait as I have only one style of tenement at present and I have got to produce some more. Perhaps I'll take a leaf out of Mojo1s book but instead of a mill I'll do a whiskey bond.

Might even have a go at a Horsfield or Convert and I will certainly do a Bradford car for Mojo.

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If you want specific buildings rather than "representations" Jim, in most cases, you have to scratch build.

There are some superb "texture sheets" available nowadays - look in our index for them - and, from a photograph, you can create something pretty presentable quite easily.

I'm not suggesting a "super-doofer" building for a start but nevertheless, good enough for people to guess it's supposed to be the Gorbels ...........:roll::roll::roll:

From what I read, for the trams there are several manufacturers of card kits plus some fairly decent metal kits, but I suspect you probably know more about that side than I do.

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Hi Petermac.
We meet again! I have no plans for a speciffic building as yet and as far as the Gorbals in the 50s and 60s goes goes my tenements are too ornate and the street too clean. Does anyone do a "street detritus matt"? Scalescenes do a trackside junk sheet but that is not quite the same.
I would have sent a picture but since you have just given me a bo.... telling off on another thread I will err on the side of caution:oops: this time

Regards
Jim

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:mutley:mutley:mutley:mutley

Always best to err on the side of caution Jim ...........:cheers:cheers:cheers

Your tenements sound more like Stockbridge in Edinburgh than the Gorbals in Glasgow .........:roll::roll: but, if it's just a representation, then as I said, work from a photo and use the readily available "texture" sheets, some of which are free downloads.

There is one site, who's name I've temporarily forgotten, (again, check the index) that offers shots of "scenes" of buildings - I'm almost certain there would be something on there that would make a very passable tenement.

Oh yes, "Peter" is absolutely fine by me and we never, ever give bol...........telling-offs :roll: on here. :thumbs:thumbs

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Hi Peter
It's actualy from a blueprint from the Glasgow museum archives of a design from the 1940s and is a type B2 from Scotstoun.
My liberty with it was to clad it in the traditional brown sandstone, incedentaly this is geologicaly the same stuff as the New York "Brownstone" Buildings are built, and I have no idea of the real roof or chimney layout. I think that these were built in concrete, or at least cement clad, like the ones in Drumry.





The tram is "Wee Baldie" and accurate for the tenement as it was used on the No 20 Clydebank to Duntocher route and you had to go through Scotstoun to get to it's depot in Partick It was used as a shipyard special as it never seemed to get full. It looked like the scenes from the Japanese rail system where they used to employ people to push passengers in to let the doors close.
This was the only version of the "Ballie Burt experimental high speed tramcar. It really meant it There are eight motors so it could either realy shift or carry an enormous weight.  It's also still in hibernation at the Glasgow transport museum.
My version is the Elro carboard kit.

Jim

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This is all very interesting stuff gentlemen but would you have any objections if I started a thread on "Card Trams" and moved these recent posts there ?

As it stands, your posts are hidden within the Maxmill Tramways thread and therefore, will not get the exposure they deserve whilst at the same time, getting way off topic on this thread..

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Hi Peter
As the lemur in the " Madagascar" cartoons says "You got to move it move it".:doublethumb
I never thought there would be enough interest to create a thread in its own right. Thanks!

New04db
Please send your 3d printers and laser cutters (there are machines like the "Craft Robo" which will cut paterns out), working or broken to......

I think that says it all:mrgreen:

Regards
Jim

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The Bankie wrote: Hi Peter
As the lemur in the " Madagascar" cartoons says "You got to move it move it".:doublethumb
I never thought there would be enough interest to create a thread in its own right. Thanks!

New04db
Please send your 3d printers and laser cutters (there are machines like the "Craft Robo" which will cut paterns out), working or broken to......

I think that says it all:mrgreen:

Regards
Jim

Unfortunately, I don't think the university will let me,  :pedal but there must be places on the high street or companies out there that you can send plans too so they can be printed

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I have, with the authors permission, moved the recent posts concerning card modelling of trams to here:

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=10841&forum_id=94&jump_to=193237#p193237

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Hi Peter
Since You were the one who said
Creating that grooved girder profile is, to me,  the big problem.  There are quite a few possibilities but none look spot on when buried in tarmac or stone setts to my eye. Fine elsewhere but lacking "something" once you put it in a road surface.  That's why I looked at the two offerings from the States - "Electric Avenue" and the "Orr Track" system.

 


I wonder if you might have any thoughts on this



It's a card insert with cobbles and the inner portion of the groove printed on it.
This is the prototype and I need to find a better colour for the inner rail but my printer wont do silver or rust.
Just thought you might have some comments before I start developing curves and points and before I drop it on the tram thread.

Regards
Jim

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It certainly looks the part Jim but surely it will suffer from the same problem as using plasticard inserts - a lack of flexibility or, alternatively, having to have a massive range to cope with the multitude of curves and point-work etc.

If one used set-track, it would work if you had a print for every possibility but that would need a considerable portfolio.

I've also discovered another problem with "printed" inserts - that of maintaining the colours and tones. 

It seems, in my printer at least, that every ink cartridge gives a slightly different hue.  That's not a massive problem on a Scalescenes building because each could be slightly different.  On a tram track however, it would soon look like a veggie patch ..............:roll::roll:.

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Hi Peter
I agree about the wiggly track needs but, as Baldrick says,"I have a cunning plan" and the fact of the matter is that ALL printed scenery will fade so it must be sprayed with a fixing varnish before you assemble it and afterwards as well or you will lose the colours. No matter what paint you use or even if you use plastic you will get fading.
As far as the veg salad bit goes just take a quick look outside your house and tell me how far you can see a continuously consistant colour on the road.
Printers are the least reliable and most notoriously firmware engineered bits of kit in the world. Mine carefully fades out the printout when I have run out of ink, only thing is, I am using non standard cartridges which have three times the capacity of standard ones and the ink has not run out so why does the printout fade away? This means that there is probably still ink in the manufacturers cartridges when the printer lies to you.  Also twice now my printer has put up a message sying that it has reached the end of its designed life but when I take it round to my mate in the trade he empties the little tank that the ink, sucked out of the cartridge during "setup" and cleaning goes into, and uses a programme to reset the fimware and I have a printer again.

As far as curves and points go I will need to produce 6 inch, 7 inch, 8 inch and 9 inch radii and regardless of what I do pointwork will be a nightmare and down to cutting out little bits to fit each individual set of points but if I can get points to work as per the original with only a small single moving tounge then I MAY be able to standardise things. However we shall see.
I'll send you the revised straights and instructions shortly and you can have a look and a play for practical criticism purposes.

Regards
Jim

Last edited on Wed Mar 13th, 2013 07:52 pm by The Bankie

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Have you looked at "Electric Avenue" pointwork Jim ?  They have a clever method of switching.  Not quite prototypical but not far off.

It will be interesting to see what you finally come up with regarding the printed cobbles.

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