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Train Sets - RR & Co - Getting You Started. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Mon Dec 13th, 2010 06:36 pm
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brianpr1
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Hi John,

Thanks for that info. This is the first time I have used multiple B&S markers and after reading about combis I assumed without checking that they were the only way of identifying an item within a train set.  I understand now why you were puzzled. :oops:

I've been through the file and replaced the combi groups with train groups in the trains tabs for the B&S markers.

This is not possible (or at least I think it is not) with the memory switches for train length, so this exercise has been useful in identifying at least one situation where, I think, a combi is needed. Those switches are not connected with the block, so the line to specify the block really is needed there.

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 Posted: Mon Dec 13th, 2010 09:57 pm
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John Dew
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Thanks Brian

I really like your idea of length related switches.........bear with me while I try and go thru the logic.......because having read your system this is what I will try at Granby 

Set up three switches for 3 different coach lengths  

Schedule "Pass Arr" approaches the terminus. TC knows which Train Group (length) is running the schedule

The schedule can go to either P1 or P2 (assuming both are unoccupied and you havent set up preferences)

As a schedule specific block property for both P1 and P2 you have an operation at block entry that turns on a length indicating switch........with a condition for turning on the switch that the appropriate train group for that switch is in the schedule

So the switch is turned on the moment the train enters the block......unlike a flagman it will remain on until you execute an operation to turn it off.......so I dont think you need the block combi!

The light engine stop markers can only be activated by the relief schedule but a condition for each stop marker will be that the appropriate length switch is on

Incidentally a condition of starting the relief schedule should be that one of the three length switches is on

I would probably turn the switch off at the conclusion of the Join operation

A note of warning about using train groups as a condition......particularly in schedules..............I have a train group with just my B Set in.......I wanted to ensure that the Autotrain didnt stop at a B Set Stop Marker so in the Markers Properties/trains I entered B Set.............of course the B Set has an engine attached......because the Engine wasnt listed the train didnt stop:twisted:

Add the engine to the markers trains and all was well

I suspect the condition to turn on say switch P1 40) may need to be      Trains 40  AND Pass Engs    

 



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 Posted: Tue Dec 14th, 2010 12:33 pm
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brianpr1
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John Dew wrote: Thanks Brian

I really like your idea of length related switches.........bear with me while I try and go thru the logic.......because having read your system this is what I will try at Granby 

Set up three switches for 3 different coach lengths  

Schedule "Pass Arr" approaches the terminus. TC knows which Train Group (length) is running the schedule

The schedule can go to either P1 or P2 (assuming both are unoccupied and you havent set up preferences)

Yes so far

As a schedule specific block property for both P1 and P2 you have an operation at block entry that turns on a length indicating switch........with a condition (but that would have to be a Combi or based on a stop marker? - see below.) for turning on the switch that the appropriate train group for that switch is in the schedule

I guess I could do it that way, but to keep the option of bringing in a train on a different schedule I have done it like this:
When the contact indicator for the main platform is triggered it performs three operations, to turn on all three switches. Each switch has a condition to satisfy before it comes on. The condition for switch P2 30 (for example) is a Combi, requiring a train of group Trains30 to be in plat 2 before that switch will turn on. Unlike the B&S markers, the switch is not linked in any way to the block and has no Trains tab, so I cannot directly specify a train group as a condition for it. On thinking further about it, I suppose I could make the condition a simple AND using the appropriate stop or brake marker coming on to satisfy it, but a combi is more direct in this case.

So the switch is turned on the moment the train enters the block......unlike a flagman it will remain on until you execute an operation to turn it off.......so I dont think you need the block combi!

Correct if I use the stop marker work around to put the switch on, but as always with TC these are two options with little to choose between them so far as I can see.

The light engine stop markers can only Not "only". I have again avoided the schedule and instead used "Trains>Light engine" to let a train go past and stop the light engine. Once again I think it is a matter of preference, or, in my case, which one I thought of first. be activated by the relief schedule but a condition for each stop marker will be that the appropriate length switch is on Correct.

Incidentally a condition of starting the relief schedule should be that one of the three length switches is on

I would probably turn the switch off at the conclusion of the Join operation

Yes, I agree.  I leave a length switch on and I found that the schedule could start when the block is clear or contains the engine that brought the train in. You will see I have a switch "Train arrived" which is a condition for the relief schedules to start. All of this needs more thought and proper planning - I was mainly concerned with stopping train and relief engine in the right place when I set it up - it evolved by discarding failures, what is left survives because it works, but it is far from perfect.

A note of warning about using train groups as a condition......particularly in schedules..............I have a train group with just my B Set in.......I wanted to ensure that the Autotrain didnt stop at a B Set Stop Marker so in the Markers Properties/trains I entered B Set.............of course the B Set has an engine attached......because the Engine wasnt listed the train didnt stop:twisted:

Add the engine to the markers trains and all was well

I suspect the condition to turn on say switch P1 40) may need to be      Trains 40  AND Pass Engs I'm not sure how you implement this: It seems to me that the only way to put train conditions into the switch is to use a Combi, but I cannot put an AND group within a combi. Once again I guess the condition would have to apply to the stop marker and the stop marker applied as a condition to the switch, but even then I cannot find a way to put AND between the engine and the cars.

A late edit: I was thinking of the case of a condition for entering a block: A listed engine OR a listed car, or both,  is allowed in, I wanted to allow the combination of listed engine AND listed car but not one without the other. I understand your point about ensuring the engine was on the list of enabled engines. End edit.

I came across this when I was trying to prevent light engines entering my train length storage loops. TC seems to have an implied OR connecting groups of engines and groups of "cars". I wish Juergen would provide the option of using AND. You will see I have resorted to the trick of using two action markers in the platforms to positively separate trains from light engines.

Hi John,

This is making me think very hard about the various options available. So far I have done the least I can get away with when setting up schedules, I will have to get a grip on them! I am finding it very useful to bounce our ideas back and forth.  There is a great deal I could do to tidy up the way the test layout works and I am sure the operating version will be vastly different.
I think this is the time to add my thanks to yours for Max's tip of stretching the block editor: My platforms now have 14 assorted markers and I had not realised the editor window could be altered. It would have been impossible to work at standard size.

Regards,

Brian


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 Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 03:49 am
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John Dew
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Hi Brian

Like you I am finding this conversation absorbing (we may be in a very very small minority......but who cares:lol:)

I realise now that my summary was incorrect........its not a length indicating switch that is turned on as a schedule block entry operation...............its the platform arrival switch

Furthermore I now realise you cant add a train condition to a switch.....the tab is there it just wont let you add anything...........that will teach me to make assumptions:oops::oops::oops:

Can you direct me to exactly where the length indicator switch is turned on.....I am struggling to find it

Regards

 



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 Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 04:34 am
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John Dew
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Hi Brian

Ignore my last

Worked it out............I was struggling to find the condition. Thats very clever turning on all three switches but then having a length specific condition for each switch:thumbs  ..................   very elegant

I will probably go for contact indicators rather than blocks as a condition but thats just personal preference

I looked at Brake Markers as a condition and I had never realised until now that you can select them when activated......I suspect this will be very useful.......but not here because the ones you need are loco not coach length sensitive

You have certainly saved me a lot of work 3-4 months from now :cheers

Regards

 

 

 



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 Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 07:24 am
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wogga
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Sorry i am quiet, trying to get time to sit down and study this monster.:oops::oops:

 I am in the hotel tonight so hopefully i can study it in peace!



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 Posted: Wed Dec 15th, 2010 11:52 am
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brianpr1
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John Dew wrote: I looked at Brake Markers as a condition and I had never realised until now that you can select them when activated......I suspect this will be very useful....

Neither did I! - I was hoping to find a way to make them double up, but I think it is impractical, maybe impossible. I can work the switches with action markers, but they have to be beyond the reach of a light engine, which turns all the markers on - It's not worth the bother of persevering when Combi groups are quite easy to use.

...but not here because the ones you need are loco not coach length sensitive  Agreed. Clutching at straws?


You have certainly saved me a lot of work 3-4 months from now :cheers

I'm glad to be of help - Your tutorial has already saved me many, many hours of struggling with TC.


Hi John,

I have taken your advice and now switch off all the length switches after separation, with a condition to prevent the relief schedule starting unless one of them is on.  That allows me to delete the Train Arrived switch, and probably the two action markers.

Pete,

Good luck! This thing has reached the point where I have to think hard to find out what's happening - I feel like the guy who has the tiger by the tail, I don't know where I'm going but I can't let go!

Regards,

Brian.

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 Posted: Sat Dec 18th, 2010 10:51 am
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Matt
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hi everyone:cool:

i am back to bore you all again:lol:

i was worried about the wheel resistors on trains also. am i right in thinking that you don't actually need them? i only have a small stock so it won't be much hassle to do this. what are the advantages and disadvantages of this?

i was going to set my stock up in lengths, say about 3 ft. i was going to set each one up as a train so they would never be parted and put a wheel resistor on the front and back wagon. but then i thought about it and it would restrict me to shunting complete lengths and not single wagons so doing each wagon would allow this. and if you do get a rouge wagon disconnect from a train and you don't see it the block will remain occupied.

a question

when you run a trainset which is 36 inches when does the block show unoccupied? is it when the train leaves the block or when the wagons leave the block.

 

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 Posted: Sat Dec 18th, 2010 04:56 pm
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John Dew
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Matt wrote: hi everyone:cool:

i am back to bore you all again:lol:


 

Hey Matt

Welcome back......great to hear from you................and you are never boring:lol:


i was worried about the wheel resistors on trains also. am i right in thinking that you don't actually need them? i only have a small stock so it won't be much hassle to do this. what are the advantages and disadvantages of this?

i was going to set my stock up in lengths, say about 3 ft. i was going to set each one up as a train so they would never be parted and put a wheel resistor on the front and back wagon. but then i thought about it and it would restrict me to shunting complete lengths and not single wagons so doing each wagon would allow this. and if you do get a rouge wagon disconnect from a train and you don't see it the block will remain occupied.


I think the jury is still out on whether they are needed......I know they are fairly widely used by some RR&Co uses.....do a search on RMWeb

I dont need them now but feel it is possible I may need them if I get into really intensive operation to both facilitate block clearance and prevent problems with really long trains (7') 

Doing just front and back wont work  you will get "flicker" rather than constant occupancy and TC doesnt like this......Mr Freiwald has been very clear on this:roll: . You have to do one axle on every standard wagon and one axle on every bogie on a coach.....I believe.................the kit isnt expensive but the time doing it must be

Eventually I might do just one rake of coaches to see how it works but I am hoping to avoid problems/collisions by adjusting block and Indicator properties and schedule rules 

Short answer......I wouldnt bother right now......

 
a question

when you run a trainset which is 36 inches when does the block show unoccupied? is it when the train leaves the block or when the wagons leave the block.

The block will show as occupied the moment the the current carrying wheels of the loco enter the block........I believe* that the moment the last current carrying wheel has left the block the "clock" starts ticking..............ie when the time memory in the indicator properties has elapsed the block will be shown as unoccupied

I am hoping problems can be avoided by adjusting the memory of the indicators of critical blocks

Secondly, if you are running schedules, remember that you can adjust schedule rules to keep blocks reserved long after the train has left them and similarly you can prevent other trains from entering reserved blocks 

* I say "believe" because I havent really visually tested this.....I tend to be looking at the screen

Hope this helps

 



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 Posted: Sat Dec 18th, 2010 07:10 pm
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Matt
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Thanks john

what kit is you need? i am sat twidling my thumbs at night at the moment and need something to do.

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 Posted: Sun Dec 19th, 2010 11:39 am
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brianpr1
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Hi Matt, nice to hear from you. Thanks again for introducing me to this forum, joining it is one of the best moves I made.

I have looked at fitting resistive axles, but rejected it.  As I understand it, there are two ways: One is to use resistive paint. This is NOT the same as conductive paint, I have seen a reference somewhere to a Trix part number. I expect it will have to be bought from Europe and will be horrendously expensive.

The other is to use a surface mount (SMD) resistor epoxied to the axle, then use conductive paint from Halfords (for repairing heated back windows) to connect the resistor to the wheels.  10k seems to be the usual value for reliable detection without drawing too much total current if lots of vehicles are fitted.  They are very cheap from somewhere like Rapid or CPC, but postage is a problem.  You may be able to get them from Maplins.

Regards,

Brian




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 Posted: Sun Dec 19th, 2010 12:16 pm
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wogga
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Do you know i am a thick get sometimes, here i am thinking about train sets etc, and i am running a couple of DMU's up and down my layout! i speed profiled the motor coach only and when i added the other coached i increased the length of motor coach to take into consideration the extra coaches.

Does it stop infront of the buffers yes everytime in both directions.

Now because the coaches in the dmu set have lighting the dummy cars are detected, maybe lighting instead of resistive wheels for carriages and brake vans chaps? Kits can be cheap just a buzz bar to hang the led's on, a resistor and some form of pickup system. (DCC done a lighting lit components the only really expensive bit is the anti flicker pcb which can be optional, see Broms models for info)

Now when i finally decide on my steam tank fleet (i have decided Loksound throughout) it will be great to play with the sets and get seriously into Brians post because the goods tanks to the terminus will be of various lengths as will the tank differences.

Brian it is great here innit.

Anyone up for the show at Preston teas and bacon butties are on me!



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 Posted: Sun Dec 19th, 2010 06:09 pm
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John Dew
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Hi Matt

Sorry I was slow getting back to you. I was trying to find a thread on RMWeb that had a a good detailed description and photos of fitting the resistors but I guess it must be buried in the archives of an earlier version

Brian has covered it perfectly
I have looked at fitting resistive axles, but rejected it.  As I understand it, there are two ways: One is to use resistive paint. This is NOT the same as conductive paint, I have seen a reference somewhere to a Trix part number. I expect it will have to be bought from Europe and will be horrendously expensive.

The other is to use a surface mount (SMD) resistor epoxied to the axle, then use conductive paint from Halfords (for repairing heated back windows) to connect the resistor to the wheels.  10k seems to be the usual value for reliable detection without drawing too much total current if lots of vehicles are fitted.  They are very cheap from somewhere like Rapid or CPC, but postage is a problem.  You may be able to get them from Maplins.

Regards,

Brian

The only difference is I went to my tool box and to my astonishment found exactly where I put them three years ago (untouched since then) a silver paint pencil and a roll of 5K resistors..............I would have bought the 5K on the recommendation of the RMWeb group

Whatever.......I agree with Brian......for now dont bother









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 Posted: Mon Dec 20th, 2010 10:52 am
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brianpr1
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wogga wrote:
Brian it is great here innit.

Yep, the best.

Anyone up for the show at Preston teas and bacon butties are on me!

Count me in - by then I may, just may, have something running.

Regards,

Brian.

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 Posted: Mon Dec 20th, 2010 08:07 pm
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Matt
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Brian

no problem:thumbs

when is the preston show? bit of a treck in this weather.

i  did see the LED light for a tail light, it would be the obvious choice but only the tail wagon would have a tail light. coaching stock would be ok but on a large layout with lots of stock may effect a power drop.

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 Posted: Tue Dec 21st, 2010 05:47 pm
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wogga
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Matt, Preston is not until 5/6th March at Preston College, they cancelled last year due to the snow so they put it back to March its not a bad show at all doesn't get rammed either.



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