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Petermac
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Before I went to UK recently, I said I may come back with some "HO" trams.

Well, I got 7 of them.  Mounted on motorised bogies and wired for prototypical overhead pickup, they were built by a friend of mine some of who's amazing work I've previously posted - for those who remember, he built that magnificent Linka monastery and that superb card locomotive.

There is one slight problem - I have no overheads installed.

Here they are temporarily posed on the "Maxmill Engineering" module:
























And, for good measure, a card loco which he said might make a nice "ornament" on a shelf above my layout:




henryparrot
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Peter
They are really lovely and already installed with motors thats most of the battle done.

You can buy tram catennary thats powered cant remember the site of the top of my head.

I found the single bogie tram i have a bit bouncy because there is so much weight swaying it when its starts moving so the pick up became erratic but i would have thought the double bogie ones should be fine
I have 2 double bogie ones to convert yet mind you havent bought the motor bogies yet they can be quite expensive.


Looks like your layout will have a tram track aswell now then

Brian



Petermac
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They really are super models Brian.

Regarding the weight, the bogies are quite heavy - I know nothing about powering trams but I think Tenshodo are the leading motor manufacturer so maybe it's their make.  All the bodies are made from plasticard so are very light.  The problem is going to be keeping the poles on the overheads if I decided to leave them as they are.

I have a couple of options - firstly, I could swap the poles for bows (I don't like pantographs) or I could convert them back to the original rail pick-up / return.  That's what the bogies were designed for - he converted them to overhead when he built them.

I have a feeling that the catenery you're thinking of might be for 7mm scale.  I'm not sure I've ever seen it available in 4mm. :roll::roll:

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Peter

If you not looking for exact prototype masts etc these one from Dapol meant for railways will do it at £9.50 for ten masts well worth looking at

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/product/31569/OOCAT1_Dapol_Catenary_Mast

East lancs tramways do the proper stuff but it is not exactly cheap

http://homepages.tesco.net/j.d.whitehouse2/

Brian

phill
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Love those trams, and that caard Loco is amazing, it must of taken some hours to build that.

Phill

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Beautiful, Peter.  :thumbs

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Who,s a lucky lad then.

They are fantastic looking models Peter.

Would one of them be surpluss to requirements by any chance ?

Petermac
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I posted elsewhere that I hoped my "HO" scale model trams would fit in with the planned "OO" gauge railway.

I quickly snapped off the following today to see what the general consensus is.  One bogie isn't seated properly so it looks a bit nose heavy but it's alongside the Metcalfe "00" low relief shop/pub kit (and yes, I know I've put the upstairs windows the wrong way up  in the pub !!!)   .  In the earlier shots, there's a "balloon" tram that is quite a bit lower than this one but I think the prototype was smaller than a standard tram.

Do you think it looks big enough to pass off on a "OO" layout ?








This 3rd shot also includes the top of the box on which it was all posed  :roll:
I could possibly move outside and go "G" Gauge - I haven't as yet, tested the Shay since it came back from Bachmann having both trucks replaced....................it's something to look forward to when the weather warms up a bit. :hmm


henryparrot
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Yes Peter

From the normal modeller point of view they are fine the fact the trams are all HO there is nothing the same that can be compared to them on the layout .

For example if you had HO and OO trams on the layout the differance would be noticed

 

Brian

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They look just fine to me. Of course you are concerned, you, and one or two others can actually remember getting their penny ticket to the mill and would remember/recognise size and proportion more readily!:mutley

Even Wagon Wheel biscuits were bigger then.......now they are HO too...:pedal


Doug

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I have always thought that the difference of 13/1000 of an inch between scales should not be discernible to the eye. If you stick to using people of one scale or the other rather than a mix there should be no problems. The hiccups arise when you put people who might be "under-tall" and decidedly slender among those of a 00 persuasion. But trams / tracks / buildings all together should be no problem at all.

Nice trams as well, by the way. :cool:

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The trams look fine to me, Peter.

As someone else said, as long as you don't introduce any OO (4mm) scale trams, the difference will not be noticeable.
I can just remember trams in Cardiff city centre and recollect looking out of a first floor shop window and not quite being able to see over the roof of passing trams. By your photos that looks about right for the ones you show.

Petermac
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Thanks guys. :thumbs

Jeff, you're right about the height.  I've studied photos to get an idea of the height and that one seems about right.  Obviously the open topped ones are much earlier and the balloon tram, as I've already said, is a fair bit smaller all round.

I don't remember watching them from shop windows but I do remember we always rode on the lower deck behind the driver watching him with his levers.  In the older "Horsfield" trams in Leeds, the driver just had a chain stopping passengers entering his drivers "space".  I'm pretty sure it was just an area near each end and had no specific "cab".  Leeds bought some ex London "Feltham" trams and they were very smart to us "lads".  They had "cabs" at each end with a door for the driver.  Much smarter machines altogether and, when they first arrived in the city, we were very excited if they put one on our route.  After the novelty had worn off, we realised we prefered the "Horsfields" because we could watch the driver with his foot pedals and levers.  Trams transport me back to a time even before I knew trains existed ...........:roll:

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Amazing stuff, Peter.
Certainly OK for size.

The upstairs windows in the pub are upside down but I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't pointed it out.

rector
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I really love those models, Peter, but have to confess to never having seen a prototype run.

I'm curious. How does the overhead power pickup work on these models?

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Tim, the pick-up can be either prototypical via the overhead or from the rails only like model railways.

On these models, the trolley pole (not shown on this latest shot) slots into a tiny tube in the roof.  The feed wire is soldered to that tube and taken down to the underfloor motor with the return out through the wheels to the track.

Whilst not such a huge problem on larger scales, at "OO" and even more so at "N" scale, the single pole pick up is very difficult - as you can imagine, it tends to come off the overhead.  A pantograph or, as with Leeds trams, "bow" collector is far easier to use.  Having proper overhead collection with rail return is easier on track cleanliness and pick-up - being only 4 wheels in general, they tend to have that lack of pickup problem so often found on 0-4-0 locos.

These models are designed, and equipped, with single trolley pole collectors but I'm going to change them for bows unless I decide to push the boat out on some pricey overheads and rails.  I've found both a prototypical grooved girder track system and good overhead catenary system in both the States and Austria but it comes at a price !!  I'm not sure it's worth it at this scale - I doubt anyone would notice if they ran on railway lines rather than properly grooved tram tracks.

phill
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Looks ok to me Peter, nice trams.

Phill

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Thanks Phill.

With regard to the overhead pickup, I've yet to discover how the single trolley pole selects the right overhead at points.  On the real thing, there's a wheel at the end of the pole that runs along the live wire but when it comes to a point - i.e. where the overhead diverges to the selected route - there must be some kind of overhead switching mechanism to direct the wheel onto that route.  As yet, I have no idea what that mechansim is. :roll::roll:  With bow collectors, it's not a problem because the tram just drags the bow with it.  There are no polarity problems with overhead pickup - it's either +ve rail and -ve overhead or visa-versa

I'm still looking ..................:cheers

Gwiwer
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There is no switching in the overhead Peter.

Older-style trolley poles may be fitted with a pulley-like wheel or a carbon block at the end but the operation is the same and is common also to trolleybuses.

You may note that the pole extends beyond the rear of the vehicle, even if only slightly, when correctly set. Simple mechanics will show that when the track points are set and the vehicle starts to deviate from a straight line that anything which it is, in effect, towing such as the trolley pole will follow the course of the leading vehicle.

It is no more complex than when you tow a trailer with your car - the trailer comes along behind following the course of the car.

The overhead itself usually had (in some cases still has) large cast "frogs" which are basically a channel for the pole to run through and which resemble a track point in having one entry and two exits. But they have no moving parts; the pole simply follows the direction the tram takes.

Very occasionally this fails to happen and a dewirement occurs. It is usually quite simple and quick for the driver or conductor to re-wire the pole using the retriever rope. In the case of trolleybuses a long pole was sometimes used instead.

Last edited on Sun Jan 23rd, 2011 08:44 pm by

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Re the above, just like 'Brio' wooden railways, once the hand [tram] has pointed the loco round the wooden point-work, the rest just follows, I imagine.

Doug

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Thanks guys :thumbs

Presumably it is important that the overheads are placed in exactly the right spot in relation to the points.  If the pole drags off to the side too long either before or after the tram has made the turn, then it's a de-wirement.  I wonder how well that would work in minature without either the mass or the pressure...............:hmm  The poles are spring loaded but not with too hefty springs.

I do remember the conductor having to get out and swing the pole to the opposite end of the tram by the rope whenever you reached the end of the line but I can't recall any de-wirements but as you say Rick, they must have happened.

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I think its as Doug says that the points set the direction ,and the pole just follows where its led .albeit a bow type pick up.  I recall the London trolleybuses having the pole moved by the conductor at terminals and also the occasional mishap .the pole lived in a long tube under the bus and was retrieved from the back of the bus when needed . I think (not sure ) that the old trolleybuses could move short distance by battery in an emergency .   I think the trams look great sizewise .i would certainly be pleased to use them.:thumbs  I remember the seat backs on trams could be swung over to face the opposite direction when preffered ,also making sure i did not get my bike wheels in the tracks . Those rubber bellows in front of traffic lights ,was another hazard.:roll:

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sparky wrote: also making sure i did not get my bike wheels in the tracks .


You had to be careful of the railway tracks in Devonport Dockyard, too.  There's the old joke about 'Why are you late reporting on board?' 'Please Sir, I got my bike stuck in the railway track and had to go to the end of the line to turn round and come back.....'


Doug

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I can't recall any de-wirements but as you say Rick, they must have happened.


I joined the Melbourne tramways in 2000 at which time we still had quite a number of trams with poles fitted. The driver (as Melbourne no longer had conductors) had to lower one pole and raise the other at each terminus which - on a tram equipped with poles at each end - has the same effect as swinging a central pole around.

The correct mode of operation, known as "trailing pole" was thus ensured. It was not permitted to move with the pole raised in front of the tram, known as "spearing pole" though in emergency the leading pole could be swung right round to trail.

There were some dewirements as well. Typically in the middle of a busy intersection at peak time :oops:

All of our trams (the oldest operational one of which dates from 1938) now have pantographs fitted though many were built new with poles and converted later.

Last edited on Mon Jan 24th, 2011 09:19 am by

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This is what's left of the the Great Sydney Trams and the Glebe sheds heart breaking really:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianstravels/5219842075/in/photostream/

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Using overhead supply on the model means that it will be much easier doing the street infil which can be a right pain.

The trams look great by the way:thumbs:thumbs 


                 

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