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Signalling with RR&Co - RR & Co - Getting You Started. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 10:18 pm
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wogga
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THe same board should be able to operate feathers and theatre boards??? i think!





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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 10:26 pm
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Geoff R
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Are you doing that with TC, Brian?

From what I can see of the TC signal controls, it is exactly the same as a double slip. It uses two addresses (they have to be sequential in Silver). The default is as follows:-

For Green, Address one is on (left if it was a point) and address two is on (again left for a point).

For Red, Address one is off (right if it was a point) and address two is still on.

For Single Yellow, Address one is on again, and now address two is off.

For Double Yellow, Address one is off, and address two is off.

If your decoder has each output as an individual address instead of in pairs like is used for a point, then I presume that TC will happily operate your circuit?

For decoders that have their outputs set up in pairs for each address, it is going to have to be a bit different.

 

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 Posted: Tue Nov 9th, 2010 10:37 am
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brianpr1
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Geoff R wrote: Are you doing that with TC, Brian?

From what I can see of the TC signal controls, it is exactly the same as a double slip. It uses two addresses (they have to be sequential in Silver). The default is as follows:-

For Green, Address one is on (left if it was a point) and address two is on (again left for a point).

For Red, Address one is off (right if it was a point) and address two is still on.

For Single Yellow, Address one is on again, and now address two is off.

For Double Yellow, Address one is off, and address two is off.

If your decoder has each output as an individual address instead of in pairs like is used for a point, then I presume that TC will happily operate your circuit?

Yes, it does.  I took a simple minded approach to the signal config. box.  I wanted the signals to operate from my ECoS screen so I have arranged my driver so that when the signal on the ECoS shows stop so does the real one.  This is the table for my signal driver, listed as address 1, address 2; signal aspect:

0,0; Red
0,1; Red
1,0; Yellow
1,1; Green

so if the signal is red the other address can change freely with no change of aspect. I take 0 as the output when the emergency stop button is pressed, so the signals default to red whether or not TC is connected. On the config. screen the red button is 0, the green button is 1 so all I need do is copy lines 1, 3 and 4 from the driver table to the screen. For 4 aspect signals I guess the driver would have to use a different table and abandon the separation between the two addresses.

For decoders that have their outputs set up in pairs for each address, it is going to have to be a bit different.

Yes.  I haven't worked out any simple way of setting up two toggled pairs to work like a signal driver without ending up with a driver circuit. I think if I had to use a commercial solution it would have to be a decoder/driver combo such as the LDT, and hang the expense.

To minimize the number of decoder outputs, for linked signals on a permanent baseboard and using this or a similar driver, it should be possible to wire the yellow input of one signal to the red input of the signal ahead and work each signal with a single connection between the red input and one of the toggled pair, the other remaining unused.

Parallel signals, such as platform starters, could probably have their yellow inputs wired together since only one could be "NotRed" and, with this driver, a red would override the other address.  I have not tried either of these suggestions because my baseboards are portable, decoder outputs are cheap and I want to keep cross board wiring to a minimum.

 

I don't suppose all this is much help to anyone struggling to get signals working. Since Pete will soon have an LDT driver perhaps we should concentrate on that?

Regards,

Brian

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 Posted: Tue Nov 9th, 2010 11:36 am
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Geoff R
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Thanks for the explanation of your signal operation, Brian. I really must join MERG. I have had the application form sitting on my desk for ages. You have clearly built a simple, yet elegant solution at low cost.

I am interested to see how the LDT performs. I am not sure what the different variants are about as the signalling protocol referenced are all European Continental ones. Even the one which Pete shows only references a Dutch protocol (NR), and I have no idea how this might differ from the UK?

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 Posted: Tue Nov 9th, 2010 03:03 pm
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brianpr1
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Geoff, me too! I looked at the LDT instructions and decided you have to be an expert on European signals to have any chance with them.

I suppose the only way to make sense of it is for Pete to try all the inputs and see what lights up.

As for MERG, I have learned an enormous amount by reading their Tech. Bulletins and studying the circuits of their kits. Their accessory decoder kits are excellent, programming is reasonable and mine work faultlessly. However, I have decided not to renew next March.

Regards,

Brian


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 Posted: Tue Nov 9th, 2010 05:51 pm
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wogga
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Hi chaps yes you are both right about the LDT not being specifically for the UK, however i think the dutch NS is the nearest,

At the end of the day the LDT will be driven by what we tell TC to do, which is to switch the various outputs off and on at the correct moment in time. Did you notice "what WE tell TC to do" i will need some help when they arrive.

I will sort my switchboard out to display the type and placement of the signals as a first step and publish here if i may.

Pete



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 Posted: Tue Nov 9th, 2010 06:47 pm
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brianpr1
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Going back to the tutorial, I have put Chris's signals in at the Eastham end:


I'm looking at a way for TC to know whether it is a shunting move or a departure/arrival, so for now I have put in a switch for shunting. When this is on, moves within the station are authorized with ground signals.

I cannot use Auto D&D to move the engine in to the train, the other switches set the route so the signals work properly, but the engine has to be driven in manually. All other moves use ATD&D. Joining is automatic. The shuffle and separation are operations of the stop marker.

The signal for rightbounds at the exit of 651 should have a theatre indicator on Chris's scheme. If I could build one and its driver, the operation woud be the same as the feather, which I have shown as a 2 aspect signal on the diagonal. When the output is on the feather lights up or the theatre shows G (say). When the output is off the feather is dark or the theatre shows P.

Is it possible to get the pictures bigger?


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 Posted: Tue Nov 9th, 2010 07:07 pm
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Geoff R
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You mean like this:-




The answer is yes, so tell us what you are doing to create your images in the first place. Because I simply enlarged your original, it is not as clear as it would be if captured at that size.

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 Posted: Tue Nov 9th, 2010 09:11 pm
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wogga
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brianpr1 wrote: I'm looking at a way for TC to know whether it is a shunting move or a departure/arrival, so for now I have put in a switch for shunting. When this is on, moves within the station are authorized with ground signals.



Brian have you tried changing the schedule type to Shunt, if you select the schedule and go to the schedule properties there is an option called type, default setting is normal but there is a shunt option

If Shunt is selected, then all trains will run the schedule in shunting mode. In this case all blocks of the schedule are reserved as shunting area, when the train is started, and only one train may run in this shunting area at a time.

How it will effect signals i don't know but you try.



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 Posted: Wed Nov 10th, 2010 01:34 pm
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brianpr1
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Geoff,

I press Alt + Prt scrn for the active window, then open ms Paint, right click, paste, save as JPG. There must be a way within paint, but right now I'm square eyed with watching little trains belting in and out of Eastham.

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 Posted: Wed Nov 10th, 2010 01:51 pm
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Geoff R
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Brian, as far as I know, you can't resize images with Paint. Do you have access to Adobe Photoshop Elements? It comes packaged with many systems these days. It is more sophisticated than Paint, but similar to use. It does have an image resize option.

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 Posted: Wed Nov 10th, 2010 04:34 pm
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brianpr1
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Thanks Geoff, I may be able to find an old graphics program, I'll have a look through my stack of discs.

Pete,

The shunting schedule looks useful.  At the moment I'm hoping to get the signals working without relying on any schedules. The main signals are OK but the ground signals are making it difficult.

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 Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2010 05:59 pm
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brianpr1
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I thought signalling would be tricky, but until I started this demo I had no idea how difficult it would be.

For what it's worth, here is my first attempt at signalling Eastham. I've got rid of the manual shunting switch and added a flagman.  The schedules are Work in Progress and need tidying up and a bit more work to make them all operate as they should. The signals seem to work OK. but I'm not sure whether some schedule problems are a result of the way I have set it up or are built into the simulator. It needs Gold for the schedules to work, although the signals may still work in Silver.



Rather than try to describe it in detail, and since I think there are only six of us TC nuts, if anyone is still interested I will send you a copy of the files so you can see it in operation and peek inside to see how it works. If you want them please send me a PM with your email address.

Regards,

Brian

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 Posted: Wed Nov 17th, 2010 06:46 pm
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Geoff R
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Thanks Brian. You could try uploading the file(s) first rather than having to send out to a number of emails. We brought this up a while ago with Bob and he then provided us with a file attachment facility found just below the reply panel I am using right now. He has restricted the file types, but zip is included so you could just run the file(s) through winzip first. Max size is 1Mb so that should be plenty for a zipped yrr file. Mine are all under 200kb.

EDIT: Found where we did it before:-

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=5706&forum_id=151&page=6

post number 112

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 Posted: Thu Nov 18th, 2010 01:47 am
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John Dew
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Hi Brian

I would be very interested to see the files.

I am afraid my contribuition to this project has not been stellar:shock:

Like you I found it more complicated than I had imagined it to be Secondly, for me, it is essentially a theoretical exercise and therefore has tended to slide down my priority list

Nevertheless the tutorial would not be complete without a signalling section and hopefully I will be able to eventually develop something from your hard work

Kind Regards



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 Posted: Thu Nov 18th, 2010 07:34 pm
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brianpr1
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Thanks again, Geoff.

Everyone:
I have zipped the three prog. files in the hope that this will set up the layout, the windows and the train positions, and included the zip file as an attachment.

This should give you a train ready to leave Eastham, another in Weston P 1 waiting for Eastham to clear and an engine trapped in Plat 1. The "sprinter" is not set up yet.

It may start with block 652, Eastham showing yellow. If it does, please click the CI to turn it pink before starting.

I think the best start from here is to highlight schedule E04 on the dispatcher screen, then top line, schedule > start and turn on the simulator, then let it rip until it jams.

There is a problem in Weston P 1 which will activate route WP1 to 657 and need this:

On the dispatcher screen click routes (the diagonal icon near the bottom) highlight WP1 to 657, right click on it and press "reset".

Sorry about that, but I haven't yet found the problem, and the main idea is to get the signals going.

If you want to hear the whistle please dragndrop the sound files folder dreckly on to C: (path C:sound files) or go in to the list for the finish of schedule "E01 move forward" and alter the path to wherever you wish.

I hope it all works!

Brian

Attachment removed 3/11/11

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 Posted: Thu Nov 18th, 2010 10:37 pm
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Geoff R
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Yes, Brian I can get it to work and the signalling looks good.

Got myself in a bit of a mess to start with and learnt some more about TC. For a start although I had previously loaded both Gold and Silver I have since removed the Gold version concentrating on what Silver can do. No problem, I thought, just download a copy of Gold which I did - more later.

Your yrr file loaded fine, but I couldn't get the train to move. My system of ZTC was still the active system and although it appeared to be allocated to the engine correctly, it just would not move. I reloaded and allowed TC to change the digital system to the ESU that it had found in your files, and all worked fine - don't understand why?

Still, I then thought I would go back to my files with Silver, and TC wouldn't load. It told me that I had incompatible files. So I then removed Gold again, but still Silver would not run up. I had to remove Silver as well and then download a new copy. I started to realise then by the release dates that there had probably been a new release since my original download. Sure enough, when I went to start up with my files I was told they were saved with an earlier version and was invited to save them in the new version format.

Phew!!

Now to go back to my operational system and 5.8 !!!!!!

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 Posted: Fri Nov 19th, 2010 07:46 am
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wogga
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:doublethumb Very very good Brian its working a treat, i shall dissect the schedule and learn from that.

Remember when we were at the show and Peter asked if we could an RR&co demo? this would be a cracker for  it? One day eh!

Just looked back and its still running nicely, i just love coupling and uncoupling you can take your roundies and shove em. 100% entertainment.



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 Posted: Fri Nov 19th, 2010 12:07 pm
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brianpr1
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Thanks for the responses, I'm relieved that the zip files transferred properly.  I confess that I have used only Gold/ESU and not experimented with other combinations. After Max's troubles and now Geoff's experience I'll stick with that.


wogga wrote:

Remember when we were at the show and Peter asked if we could an RR&co demo? this would be a cracker for  it? One day eh!

Great idea,  now we only need a working layout......  How is it going, Pete?

I spent all morning tweaking the servo linkages on three crossovers, time is flying by and I haven't even rebuilt my storage loops yet.

Regards,

Brian

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 Posted: Fri Nov 19th, 2010 04:06 pm
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wogga
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In a word slowly Brian, i haven't the LDT;s yet (i must chase them) i have just got a bit of tidying up to do on track and i will be electrically there. I am looking forward the christmas break and i can really get stuck in to buildings and scenery etc. we are fortunately busy at work so i am usually a bit knackered when i get back home to do modelling. I will set myself a few goals and get my finger out.



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