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Signalling with RR&Co - RR & Co - Getting You Started. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Sat Nov 6th, 2010 05:46 pm
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John Dew
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No problem......I am happy to follow your lead

I have answered Chris's questions.....You may want to check we are on the same page

Regards



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 Posted: Sat Nov 6th, 2010 07:54 pm
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brianpr1
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I think I need to clarify my approach to getting the signals working, in the hope that you will find the mistakes and pick holes in it now rather than after I have put more time into it..

On my layout  I have set up the platform 1 starter so I will use that as the example, transferred to Eastham. To avoid even more complication I have left out any reference to manual working, so the signal works properly for all of:
1  Run with Interlocking
2  AutoTrain Drag & Drop
3 Schedules
but NOT manual operation.

The trigger for Red is blank              ( The signal goes Red if the other triggers don't apply.  I have in mind "Steam Rules" where the signal is red until a train approaches from the rear or in the case here of a terminus, is waiting in rear of the signal).  I have not specifically covered the case of a departure from the short spur.

The trigger for green is this:

current block:      Occupied           (This is to reset the signal when the train has left the block. If I have it right, steam rules require the signal to remain Off (NotRed) until the tail light is seen to clear the block. I set the CI memory to switch off when tail of train has passed the point where the CI switches off.  When that happens the trigger is no longer true and the signal goes red.).

AND
route between them:   Active       (The signal does not change until TC has set the route)

AND
block in advance reserved for a train moving to the left (train leaving Eastham) 
                                                (This keeps the signal at red if the movement is opposite direction. If the platform is empty the first line of the trigger would do the same thing but without this line the signal flashes green or yellow when the train enters and until it reaches the stop marker and switches the route off.)   

AND
the signal ahead is "NotRed" i.e. yellow or green. (check the "Not"box at the bottom of the trigger box)
                                             (This decides between green and yellow depending on the state of the signal ahead)

(End of green trigger)

The trigger for Yellow is identical except the last line reads:

the signal ahead is Red        (The opposite of the last line in the green trigger)

AND means that all of the lines must be true together.

I hope this makes sense.  I have been playing with it for weeks so it is familiar to me. I imagine it looks weird to someone seeing it for the first time.

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 Posted: Sat Nov 6th, 2010 08:59 pm
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John Dew
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Hi Brian

I think you are being both Pessimistic and Optimistic.:lol:

Pessimistic that there is something wrong.....you seem to have an excellent grasp of TC

Optimistic that I am capable of spotting any errors.

I will set up the layout and replicate what you have done with the simulator.......part of my problem is I have only done Manual and Auto with Schedules.....anyway I need to do it so I can follow what you have done

Regards



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 Posted: Sat Nov 6th, 2010 10:24 pm
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John Dew
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Hi Brian

I started playing:shock::shock::shock:

What is your experience with triggers as opposed to conditions..............does one just load every requirement into trigger or does one limit the requirements under trigger and cover all the must haves (nots) under conditions

My first initial reaction is that it is easier to start with a number of signals then the action of one signal depends on the state of another......which is what happens in the prototype

I know we are waiting for Chris but I started working down this route

For now and for simplicity, ignore the goods yard and assume the loop is controlled by ground signals we then need :

A Starter controlling departure from Eastham Station and Entry to Eastham Home

An Advanced Starter controlling departure from Eastham Home and Entry to Ashby Halt (As you pointed out Eastham Home has to be part of station limits so we can do the run around)

And then in the other direction two Homes......one for the station and one for the loop both controlling entry to Eastham Home  

It doesnt matter whether these are correct or not it just enables us to link them together as conditions.......I am sure this is what Beast had us do on RMWeb

I will continue with this later

Regards

 

 



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 Posted: Sun Nov 7th, 2010 11:47 am
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brianpr1
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Hi John,

So far I have found it easier to have all the logic on one page, so I have not used conditions for signals. I have found them useful with turnouts and routes for setting up flank protection.

I agree with your initial signalling proposals, but I have not looked at inbounds yet.  I have set up a platform starter and an advanced starter/Ashby Home and I have put in a non-working starter for leftbounds from Ashby.  I change that by clicking to make sure the Eastham Adv. starter shows the correct aspect.  I have only provided for departures from the platform or the loop, on the assumption that the Goods block will not hold a goods train ready for departure. I think it would be relatively simple to change it.  As yet I have not put in a starter from the loop.

I have tried it out on the sim and it appears to work properly for departures and shunting from 652 to 651, but I can not think up any unusual moves to test, so there could be weaknesses. I have only tested with AutoTrain, but it should work the same with schedules.

As you are working on the problem I don't want to post a spoiler, please let me know when I should post my signal properties screens.

Regards,

Brian

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 Posted: Sun Nov 7th, 2010 07:02 pm
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John Dew
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As you are working on the problem I don't want to post a spoiler, please let me know when I should post my signal properties screens.


Dont wait for me Brian......I am sure we will reach the journeys end eventually albeit by different routes.

This is much more difficult than I thought.....and quite absorbing like advanced Sudoko......no modelling and I missed a large part of the hockey

I was about to post my progress but I see Chris has posted his layout so I will wait until I get his email

I have started in some instances limiting the trigger and having a load of conditions. I am just using CIs, Signals and Turnouts.

EG The single trigger for Eastham Starter GREEN is the Loop turnout sets to normal........but then there are a whole load of conditions.....CI Eastham ON, CI Eastham Home OFF, Sig Eastham Advanced Starter GREEN Sig Eastham Home RED  

Conversely Eastham Starter RED is triggered by Loop Turnout Reverse OR CI Eastham OFF OR SIG Eastham Home RED......although re reading your post I guess I could have just left it blank. 

I set up a push button [Easton Depart] which sets the point to normal and then if the conditions are met the signal goes to Green reverting to Red when the CI turns off................quite how far one extends the button to Route setting I am not sure 

To get the Distant and Home Signals to work I had to invent some signals at Ashby Halt

My big breakthrough was the use of the OR condition which I hadnt realised existed although I have often wished it was there......now having. better late than never, checked Help Conditions I find I can combine AND OR conditions which should help even further

 

 

T



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 Posted: Sun Nov 7th, 2010 07:13 pm
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brianpr1
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An update:

Before Chris's reply I set up the signals for rightbounds, an inner home at the right exit to 651 and the signal to its rear. I have used three separate symbols, but the signal I had in mind was a simplified version of this, at Minehead on the West Somerset Railway:



When I have seen the full size plan this may have to change, but I think operation would be similar.

There is a general snag with movements into an occupied block: The default rules for R with I and AutoTrain do not allow entering an occupied block. I think altering them would be a bad move, so coupling and separating on the runaround will have to be on a schedule or with a switch and manual driving.

If you think it would be useful I could send you my file, it would save your time in setting it up.

Regards,

Brian

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 Posted: Sun Nov 7th, 2010 08:04 pm
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brianpr1
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Posts crossed again!

I agree this is compulsive and very time consuming. Ineresting too, to see how such different aproaches can produce the same result.

I'll put up my signals so far. I think the Inspector gives a fuller picture than the properties screens:

















I hope you can read them, they are smaller than I expected. A couple of view>zooms may fix it.

They all work except for the call-on subsidiary to permit coupling on the runaround. I've stopped work on that until I see Chris's plan. The Inner Home, if that is the right term, is set up as three 2-aspect signals, the green on the switchboard would light the white on the signal, red would leave the signal (feather or call-on) dark. The main signal would be red/yellow on the layout.

Are you including manual operation at this stage?  I was planning to get everything working on Auto first, but this would be a convenient place to add provision for manual.

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 Posted: Sun Nov 7th, 2010 08:48 pm
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wogga
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Brian you are well and truely hooked, the addiction has taken over:mutleythis where the price of Gold is worth every penny! For me i am lost on this signalling malarky :shock::shock: i will lurk if i may and try and learn.

I moved my layout over the past few weeks and introduced a double slip in my fiddle yard wish i hadn't now so i am preoccupied setting it up.:thud



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Pete.

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 Posted: Sun Nov 7th, 2010 09:05 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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I've got two double slips on my TC layout, Pete.  I think I've hit all of the hurdles.  If I can help, let me know.



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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 10:18 am
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wogga
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Sorted now Max thanks, i sat staring at the Dbl Slip properties, i.e the switching, and then the penny dropped. But don't ask to explain it!



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Pete.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 10:20 am
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wogga
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Cheers Brian now i know what the inspector window is all about;-):lol:



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Pete.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 07:54 pm
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Geoff R
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Those setups look excellent, Brian. I have put them into my version of the tutorial and they seem fine. I am still using Silver, by the way. I have not yet found a difference between Silver and Gold for signalling??

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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 08:06 pm
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wogga
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Geoff have you got your signals wired in and working? do you fancy discussing and hardware for us novices about to have a go?

 



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Pete.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 08:49 pm
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Geoff R
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wogga wrote: Geoff have you got your signals wired in and working? do you fancy discussing and hardware for us novices about to have a go?

 


I have done several things with signals.

1) I have a fully operational semaphore signal bracket with 3 arms and a theatre display. The arms are controlled by memory wire motors. They require a continual supply of 300mA when in the off position. I have yet to drive these from my DCC controller, but I can't see a problem. I use ZTC304 accessory decoders, but only for Peco Point Motors at the moment. They have 8 outputs in pairs which can be programmed to pulse alternately - for the Peco motors, or continuously for Tortoise type motors, or individually either pulsed or continuous. They are rated at 5Amps per output, and 5Amps in total, so should not have any problem driving the memory wire motors. I should be able to drive 8 such signal motors per decoder, even if all 8 are in the "off" position at the same time. I will try it some time soon with my new gantry.

I have successfully driven the theatre display from a function only decoder, using the four functions as a BCD feed into the theatre circuit. I could easily do the same with an accessory decoder like the 304.

2) I have installed some simple red/green colour light signals - actually just leds without any further modelling. They are connected directly to hard logic provided by microswitches fitted to point motors. They require a "command" signal to enable correct direction controls. Currently I do this with a couple of switches, but intend again using accessory decoder outputs to enable me to do this from my DCC controller.

3) The ZTC304s can be programmed to allow two consecutive addresses to be operated together. This means 4 outputs at the same time. If each of these 4 outputs is connected to one of R,Y,G,Y lamps, then MAS can be handled. What's more, this decoder with the ZTC511 controller, can step through the correct MAS sequence just by repeatedly pressing a single enter button on the 511. This would mean two signals per decoder. I have purchased several at just £10 each from eBay, so only £5 per signal. (They retail new at around £30 each though.)

I have NOT tried to operate any signals from TC yet. I have only been trying things out with the simulator. I do, however, have many of my point motors now being controlled by TC so it should be an easy step to try out some operation of signals.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 09:03 pm
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wogga
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Ooops i think we should start another thread? can you copy delete and post in a new thread we will have Brian and john kicking off/

Pete



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Pete.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 09:40 pm
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brianpr1
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Pete, it's all part of signalling, no problem in keeping it here. Have you got any further with the LDT option?

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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 09:46 pm
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John Dew
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wogga wrote: Ooops i think we should start another thread? can you copy delete and post in a new thread we will have Brian and john kicking off/

Pete


Never!!!:lol:

Apart from anything else I am coming to the conclusion it is very difficult to separate out just the TC logic from Signalling......



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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 09:52 pm
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brianpr1
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Geoff,

I'm not aware of any differences, but I've lost touch with silver.  I'm using MERG steady state decoders (8 independent addresses) with a 74hc259 used as a substitute "rotary switch equivalent" controlled from 2 addresses to drive one 3 aspect signal from each IC.

I think Pete is right, the hardware seems to be a problem for many would be signalmen.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 10:12 pm
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wogga
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brianpr1 wrote: Pete, it's all part of signalling, no problem in keeping it here. Have you got any further with the LDT option?


There on backorder Brian, which is just as well as i am still putting my layout back together. I am hoping its straight forward enough to install its just getting the rules and conditions right when i get round to TC, here is a schematic of the connections.




I have studied the instructions properly the units allows the fading in and out of the lights as they change:cool:



They are also availible in kit form Brian with a 33% saving built cost.

It will be interesting setting them up. By the way, it is LDT that supply all these electronic bits for Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg

http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/



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