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| Signalling with RR&Co - RR & Co - Getting You Started. - Your Model Railway Club | ||||||||||
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John Dew Full Member 
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 Following on Brians post here is the YMR layout stage I ..........unsignalled I suggest we have a go at positioning the appropriate signals first then as a second exercise work out the appropriate conditions For the purpose of the exercise lets assume that the buffer is the line towards Weston and the extremity of the Eastham Branch Box I will have an attempt this evening Regards ____________________ John Granby III Lenz DCC,RR&Co Gold V9 B1 Windows 10 |
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brianpr1 Former Member
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Hi again John. I'm feeling guilty at disrupting your work plan for the tutorial. I will try to make amends by having a go at a signalling scheme. I don't think it matters about having a realistic scheme: We will all have to make our own minds up on what we use on our layouts. The key is to agree on the signals we will use here and get them to work from TC. A small branch like this would probably run on "One engine in steam" and not need any signals, but that defeats the object. The signals I am suggesting here are probably overkill, but I have no fixed ideas - You're the boss on this and I will readily agree with whatever you want to do. I think this setup could deal with a shuttle, with a DMU arriving at one platform and another immediately leaving from the other. If this becomes more than a group of two looking at the problem I think we will need to share the YRR file and arrange some way of controlling amendments to it. This is as far as I've got- please tell me what you think of it so far.  Regards, Brian |
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Geoff R Member
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Hi Brian (and John), I have been continuing to read the latest tutorials from John, and am interested in how this signalling one is going to develop. I am unlikely to introduce TC operation of signals on my layout for the forseeable future, but am interested in signalling and will enjoy the intellectual exercise with TC. Couple of questions in regard to your proposed signalling arrangement for the tutorial layout. Firstly, is the advanced starter viable without any blocks beyond the left hand "buffer"? I ask this because presumably it would require a "free" block to the west yet we don't have any more track in that direction - but maybe I misunderstand the function of the advance starter. Then, I wonder if it is not too complicated to include some call on signals with the 652/3 homes to make provision for run around locos to back onto coaches left behind in the platform? At the same time, would it be possible to include a ground signal in 653a to permit a run around loco to come back past the said coaches? Maybe also shunt signals into the goods siding and back out again? I have put a lot of thought into signalling in several areas of my layout, and would find this tutorial very useful in helping me understand the operating rules for such signalling - albeit under the management of TC. |
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MaxSouthOz Admin 
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I'd like to ask a question about your Track Plan, Brian. It looks like there is track outside of the blocks. Is that right? Once the train leaves the block, "Eastham Home," how does TC keep track of it? If you have a sequence which ends on that line, it seems to me that once the train leaves the EH block, the sequence won't be able to end? . . . or is it just me being thick again?  ____________________ Max Port Elderley |
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Geoff R Member
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I think you make a good point, Max (by the way, what time is it there, must be very early Thursday morning?). I wonder if we would be best to go back to John's full tutorial schematic with an intermediate station and Westham terminus on the left. We don't have to signal the whole thing in one go, but at least it will allow trains to move through several blocks away from Eastham and therefore have Eastham signals operating fully - I think! |
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MaxSouthOz Admin
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7 a.m. Thursday, Geoff. Been up for an hour reading my emails. 
____________________ Max Port Elderley |
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Geoff R Member
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Here is a pic of the switchboard I am on about:- I have added what I think would be the essential signals. Not sure if I have used the right formats for call on and ground - I am used to semaphores. I am still trying to work with Silver, so no point in posting the yrr as I don't think you would be able to load it into Gold. Just noticed that having carefully set the signals from Eastham towards Weston to Red, they have gone to Green in this screen grab!!!!! We haven't even started yet, and TC is doing its own thing  |
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Geoff R Member
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First thing I discover, which is blindingly obvious really, and that is a 3 aspect signal requires two output addresses. TC Silver automatically assigns them sequentially - just like double slip points. | |||||||||
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Geoff R Member
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So, taking my switchboard above. I set the trigger condition for Weston P1 signal to go green if the route is set from P1 to Weston Home, and then set the trigger condition for it to go back to red if Weston Home is occupied. I set all signals to red. Then, having placed a train in Weston P1. I start the schedule for Weston P1 to Eastham. The signal goes green. Start the sim and after a short delay, the train leaves P1, enters Weston Home and the Weston P1 signal goes back to red. Maybe there needs to be more to it than that? |
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Geoff R Member
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Hope I'm not moving too fast here? I have made the same assignments for the signals heading towards Eastham for Weston Home, Ashby Halt and Eastham Home. Very interestingly, although there is clearly a route from Ashby Halt to Eastham Home, the signal at Ashby Halt does not go green until the schedule is ready for the departure from Ashby Halt. This must mean that TC does not set the route internally until it is ready for the train to move off. This set of signals then work well all the way across from Weston P1 to Eastham Station. |
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Geoff R Member
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My simple approach is not sufficient for the bi-directional line. I have now added an additional trigger for the green state, and that is the current block being in the state of having a green signal to the desired exit. Seems to then work okay in both directions. Guess that I could have used conditions instead of triggers. Have to think about the difference?? |
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brianpr1 Former Member
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Keeping track of all this needs a good memory! To look at some of the responses: My original scheme assumed the extension to Weston would come later so I put in the outer home (if that's the right term) and the adv. starter. I put in a calling on signal below each of the homes 652 and 653 on the assumption that they would be needed on a run around and perhaps shunting. I looked at Minehead Station (West somerset R.) in the summer - their release crossover is controlled from a ground frame with a key which I assume is released from the Box. I don't think it matters very much what we decide, the aim is to link it to TC. On my layout I have set up one starter to work with the engine change schedules. As recommended in the manual I have left the Red trigger blank. If nothing else applies the signal goes red with no need to reset it. To trigger Green I use this: Block in advance: Empty AND current block: Occupied AND route between them: Active AND either block in advance reserved for a train moving to the right (if the current block is on the left and next block on the right) OR the On-Off switch (activating the route for manual control) is On AND the signal ahead is "NotRed" i.e. yellow or green. The trigger for Yellow is identical except the last line reads: the signal ahead is Red This seems to work OK for any type of running including manual and run with interlocking and keeps the signal at Red when a train is travelling in the opposite direction. I don't think it covers every possibility but it covers most. The reset happens when the start block is vacated. I set the memory to switch off when tail of train has passed: I think that is the rule for Absolute Block. If the memory is left at auto or on a short timer I think that would comply with modern Multiple Aspect rules. |
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John Dew Full Member
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brianpr1 wrote: Keeping track of all this needs a good memory! That is certainly true  I am very happy for you to take the lead in this Brian..............you are much further ahead than I! Maybe I can pose some questions to clarify where we are agreed and where we need more discussion INTITIAL TUTORIAL LAYOUT I think the first segment of the tutorial should focus on the Eastham Branch that you posted plus the addition of Ashby Halt, Weston Home and Weston P1. That way we can link everything to a couple of simple schedules. SIGNAL TYPE Three aspect SIGNAL PLACEMENT My signalling knowledge is based on GWR Semaphore so be warned........ I agree we need Starter and advance starter so that Eastham Home is within Station Limits and the loop can be accessed.......I am not sure about calling on arms in a branch. I would have thought that this would be a function of ground signals GROUND SIGNALS Unlikely to be modelled but do we need to include them in the scheme Our main focus is on TC Signal Operation not a debate about placement...............my inclination would be a PM to Chris and ask him for the definitive version TC TRIGGERS AND CONDITIONS Your set up looks great to me Brian and has the advantage of having been tested. I assume "Active Route" mean the points are set? What happens if you run manually? I think once we our signals placed we can easily determine the specific triggers and conditions for each signal TC Operation I know nothing!!! For tutorial purposes we need to come up with at least some alternatives. I had assumed it would be similar to points with a separate power suppply to the light signals that would be fed through some form of accessory decoder that would receive commands from TC. There is a lot of stuff on RMWeb......Two Tone Green who was briefly a member here has his layout fully signalled as of course does Beast6606.............I will do some research Hopefully this has covered the bases........let me know what you think ____________________ John Granby III Lenz DCC,RR&Co Gold V9 B1 Windows 10 |
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brianpr1 Former Member
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John Dew wrote:
I hope this moves us forward a little. We need to decide on the extent of the layout we are going to ask Chris to look at: Another reason for keeping it simple at this stage. If Chris comes up with a scheme I suggest we accept it in full without further debate and concentrate on implementing it in TC. One more point occurs to me: I have shown two Home signals side by side on my original diagram because I could not see a better option in TC, but in practice I think it would be one signal with a feather. So far as TC is concerned I think the second signal could be forced to operate the feather. |
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John Dew Full Member
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See below in Red brianpr1 wrote: John Dew wrote:
Good Idea I hadnt thought of that......you may want to make a decision on Ground Signals.......I will bet you a Pint of Speckled Hen (yes we have it here) that Chris will include a number of them unless you suggest otherwise
Go with your suggestion above.......Eastham plus tone block Another reason for keeping it simple at this stage. If Chris comes up with a scheme I suggest we accept it in full without further debate and concentrate on implementing it in TC. Totally Agree Lets see what Chris suggests Regards ____________________ John Granby III Lenz DCC,RR&Co Gold V9 B1 Windows 10 |
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brianpr1 Former Member
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I've posted a request for Chris in the signals section. This thread is moving too fast for me to keep up. After taking another look at Geoff's plan I realize that I have been assuming without thinking about it that there is an island platform between Eastham station and Eastham loop, and it is much more likely to be a one sided platform on the South side, with a simple loop as in Geoff's scheme. Geoff: On your plan you have not shown the block 651 Eastham Goods. On a layout it is not needed, TC keeps the loop reserved and when the engine reappears from the goods siding it is correctly identified. When it comes back on the sim it leaps instantly to the block ahead but I don't think it matters. It is probably better to have fewer blocks, but leaving it out eliminates any automated shunting. Once again, for signalling purposes that does not matter. If Chris uses a ground signal to control the goods exit we may have to think again. Looking at your triggers etc. we probably need to decide soon whether we are dealing with scheduled running only or making the signals work for all four methods from schedules down to manual. Should we just drop any attempts to drive on manual? That seems to cause far more difficulties with signals than any of the automatic methods. I find it very useful to use Autotrain Drag & Drop to move trains around for testing schedules, and it is nice to see my only operational signal change to permit the movement. We seem to have hit a brick wall on the hardware question. Does anyone know of other options besides LDT and Traintronics? |
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Geoff R Member
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brianpr1 wrote: I've posted a request for Chris in the signals section. I showed the layout as per the tutorial when I was following John. I stopped when the sessions got beyond me because of my lack of sufficient block detectors in place and not using Gold, so I missed out on the introduction of the Goods siding. I suggest that it is included to enable signalling for shunting. I know that I went for triggers based on schedules, but I do like your thoughts around signalling for manual control. In fact, my current intention is to use TC for point control through route setting and not running trains under TC as I do not have occupancy detectors in place at this time. I am interested in signalling, though, and it would be good to run the signals from TC at the same time as setting routes - albeit that I would have to manage without block detection. As for the hardware, I don't really understand the brick wall. Almost any accessory decoder will drive LEDs or incandescent lamps if set up appropriately. So it should be straightforward to drive light signals. In my case, many of mine are to be semaphores driven by memory wire motors each taking around 350mA when operated, so I would probably need to drive relays from my accessory decoders. I use ZTC ones, and find them very easy to set up and operate. |
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brianpr1 Former Member
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Geoff, If everyone else agrees then I suggest we keep the goods block and, by hook or by crook, we make the signals work for all forms of control. I think the hardware issue is probably cost. The commercial decoders which can switch to continuous output seem to have four outputs with wiring for solenoids, i.e. 3 terminals per output. So far as I can see a 3 aspect signal will need two of the four, so two signals will cost about £15 each for conventional decoders. I think the LDT and Traintronics solution may be slightly cheaper. I haven't looked in detail at this so I may be completely wrong. I've chosen a DIY approach with MERG decoders so the commercial gear is a mystery to me. Regards, Brian |
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John Dew Full Member
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brianpr1 wrote: Geoff, Hi Brian I meant to mention that I visualised Eastham as having a single branch.......I added the Goods branch because I intended to develop a shunting tutorial but I never got round to it......and now Max's is much better I am happy to stick with the layout as you posted it.....ie with the goods siding Thinking about control......am I correct in assuming that for anything other than fully automatic (schedules) the signals would control the operation (as in the prototype) ie if the conditions specified for a given signal were not met it would remain at Red and a train would be unable to pass? Conversely, with Schedules, TC has its own internal signals and it is those signals which control the operation. The signals the user sets up are purely decorative......functioning cosmetic if you will.........you could of course set up conditions to prevent a train passing a signal at Red but I think it would be redundant bearing in mind all the internal checks that TC operates That is not to say that users committed to the automatic route would not wish to have working signals correctly linked to their automatic operation (in fact I am beginning to invent a scenario for GWR light trials starting in 1947 )If the above is valid then I suspect the conditions (or some of them) and the triggers will be different depending on the method of control............nothing wrong with that................it may help us determine where to start.......ie focus initially on one method of operating.....probably yours seeing how far you have got......get that documented and then move on to the next method and dtermine what changes need to be made. Regards ____________________ John Granby III Lenz DCC,RR&Co Gold V9 B1 Windows 10 |
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brianpr1 Former Member
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Hi John, John Dew wrote:
Chris has asked on the Signals section for more info. on the types and methods of working both Eastham and Weston. I think you are probably the best person to answer that, I have already made one false assumption about an Island platform at Eastham! Regards, Brian |
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