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Tutorial Speed Profiling - RR & Co - Getting You Started. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Wed Nov 3rd, 2010 06:10 am
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John Dew
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I have posted the Speed Profile segment so it stays together with Engine Properties

Please comment about the entire  content but I would particularly appreciate input regarding the adjustment of CVs for threshold and maximum speed.............and the resultant adjustment to acceleration

Thanks guys 

 

 

 



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 Posted: Wed Nov 3rd, 2010 07:10 pm
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wogga
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Hi John another excellant guide, re the the cv's the way i do it is as follows:

I would call it decoder setup up before speed profiling.

I.  Set the desired maximum speed on CV 5

2. Set CV4 Deacceleration to 0, this allows TC to use the braking ramp to deaccelerate the loco as per your brake and stop markers in the block, which it does admirably. (recommended in the TC manual)

3. TC cannot/does not control acceleration, this must be set to the users desired rate of acceleration with CV3.

4. Ensure the loco can begin to move smoothly on speedstep 1, both forwards and reverse.

And thats me.



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 Posted: Wed Nov 3rd, 2010 09:06 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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Pete's got it right, however I do it slightly differently with Loksound (because it's easy to do with a Lokprogrammer).  I use a linear speed table to set the maximum speed, still with a little bit of acceleration.  This gives a smoother ramp up/down of speed.  The deceleration is off as Pete said, but I use the deceleration in TC.

Because my layout is in your face at 1150 high, I put in a bit more effort with the transitions to give a better visual effect.  It's part of the reason I have so many challenges with the stop markers, I believe. :lol:



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 Posted: Thu Nov 4th, 2010 05:37 pm
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John Dew
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Thanks Guys much appreciated

I will post an amended version tonight



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 Posted: Mon Nov 8th, 2010 04:07 am
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John Dew
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wogga wrote:
I would call it decoder setup up before speed profiling.

I.  Set the desired maximum speed on CV 5

2. Set CV4 Deacceleration to 0, this allows TC to use the braking ramp to deaccelerate the loco as per your brake and stop markers in the block, which it does admirably. (recommended in the TC manual)

3. TC cannot/does not control acceleration, this must be set to the users desired rate of acceleration with CV3.

4. Ensure the loco can begin to move smoothly on speedstep 1, both forwards and reverse.

And thats me.


Hi Pete

I have written it up as you suggested................I seem to remember you have found a good average setting for CV3 or am I confused?

Regards



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 Posted: Thu Apr 14th, 2011 11:09 pm
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gdaysydney
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I have learnt how to set up schedules and they run Ok but the test loco stopping was somewhat erratic.

Following the advice from the forum I have now have a purpose built length of track that is divided into 3 blocks and I spend last night setting up the speed profile following the instructions in John's tutorial.

I spent about two hours "playing"  with brake compensation as the loco was not stopping consistently in the run out blocks but it seemed to me that no matter what I setting I gave  the brake compensation number the problem remained.  :cry:

Before commencing the speed profiling I adjusted the loco's CV as recommended.   Any suggestions greatly appreciated as always.

 

 

 



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 Posted: Thu Apr 14th, 2011 11:58 pm
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Dave, John Dew will be along shortly with the correct answer however i'll have my tuppence worth.

You say you were adjusting your brake compensation to get it to stop consistantly in the run out blocks? during speed profiling i do not touch brake compensation at all, i start speed profiling with zero brake compensation. I let speed profiling complete, as the loco speed increases the runout distance should increase relatively.

My method to adjust brake comp is as follows. i choose a stopping block on the layout e.g platform 1. i set up one of my schedules that require a train to stop in P1 block. I select at what spot in the block i want the loco to stop (i usually use the tail of the loco because i want it stop over a magnet for uncoupling) and i measure from the start of the block from the isolator to the stop point e.g. 100cm. i set my brake and stop markers for that block to allow a stop point at 100cm and a brake marker with 10cm distance and a 90cm brake ramp. The brake marker distance and ramp distance should always equal the total distance to the stop marker. i always have a long braking ramp where possible to get some nice de-acceleration.

I now run the profiled loco on the schedule. Generally i find that it will overshoot the stop marker. I now increase the brake compensation until i get the tail to stop on the right place and i am done. I run a few schedules to confirm i am done. i usually get the loco stopping on the spot within a 10mm range, which will do me. This loco will now comply to all B&S markers in all blocks.

I used to adjust brake and stop markers to suit but this is bad practice. I now measure the block distance physically to the stop point and tune my loco brake compensation to meet that distance.

I follow the same procedure the same procedure for all my loco's and have very satisfactory results.



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 12:17 am
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John Dew
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wogga wrote: Dave, John Dew will be along shortly with the correct answer however i'll have my tuppence worth.



 

You beat me to it Pete......I was typing away my answer below just as you posted................I must say your faith in me is somewhat exaggerated.:roll:.....correct answer indeed!!!:lol:

I think we have both come to the same conclusions........I do my brake compensation check differently from you but I rather like your idea linking it to a schedule and will give it a try.

Hi Dave

Are you trying to adjust the brake compensation during the speed profiling so that the loco will always stop in the same position in the run off block?    You shouldnt do that...................let the loco do its 10 or so passes forward and back and only when TC reports "Speed Profiling completed" should you attempt to adjust the brake compensation.

It is possible that while profiling the loco will not stop within the confines of the run off block..........dont worry about it. With my current set up it will often, at higher speeds, run off into the fan of points at the end of the storage yard......when I build my dedicated profiling track I am just going to ensure I have robust buffers at both ends 

Once I have profiled the loco I set up a brake profile test and specify a distance of 12" which is my normal ramp and a speed of 15mph.............I have a permanent mark 12" from the start of the test block and I just keep running the test and adjusting the comp so that the loco stops (both in forward and reverse) at the mark'

As you can see Pete has a different method and I am going to give it a try   

Hope this helps......Kind Regards

 

PS I guess I should add Pete's method to the tutorial

 



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 02:39 am
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gdaysydney
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Thanks guys,

You are correct in that I had assumed that during speed profiling the brake compensation was used to get the loco to stop at the same spot every time.:oops:   Now that you have corrected my misunderstanding I will have another go tonight.

I may have to rethink my "purpose built" siding as I although the runout at the end is two foot long the loco crashes into the buffer as the speed is stepped up!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 07:31 am
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gdaysydney wrote:
Thanks guys,
I may have to rethink my "purpose built" siding as I although the runout at the end is two foot long the loco crashes into the buffer as the sped is stepped up!


Been there Dave, my profiling track is 3yds of peco, 1 yd for centre measured track and a yard run out each end. i lower the maximum speed of my engines before profiling due to the fact they don't exceed 40mph on my layout, which helps them stop.
However if you run expresses all i can say is good luck. I read somewhere that the recommended minimum length of the centre measurement is 2 metres to get the best result then add your runouts? I doubt if many will have the real estate.

Patience , trial and error and you will get solution that suits you. As you can see JD and i are different which is the usual TC result "THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO DO THE SAME THING IN TRAINCONTROLLER"



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 08:47 am
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MaxSouthOz
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I just measured my test track.  It's 1.6 metres in the centre with 40 cm each end.  It seems to work OK for me.  :???:



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 09:00 am
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MaxSouthOz wrote:
I just measured my test track.  It's 1.6 metres in the centre with 40 cm each end.  It seems to work OK for me.  :???:

Umm thats interesting Max, and the loco is stopping ok in the runout? i reckon the runout must be at least the length of the test section? What's your top speed step/speed.

I must experiment more me thinks.



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 09:07 am
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Yes, Pete.  Although, thinking about it; my locos are set to 40 s.m.p.h. maximum speed.  That might be different from what you guys are doing. 



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 09:17 am
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Max that speed is about what mine should be, when i get back up and running i will explore this further.

I am quite happy with the results i get so its a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" however i have nagging doubts when more experienced peeps than me seem to recommend a very long test section.

I may be looking into it to hard Max and trying for utopia.



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 09:26 am
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Nothing wrong with Utopia, Pete.  I'm mapping a Mars light to tail lights at the moment, trying to get another Aux function.  My poor ole Class 24 thinks it's a PA at the minute.  :twisted:



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 09:33 am
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With two bank holidays approaching i should have me track and 'lectrics done and the new layout in me room, then we should have some real scheduling to be done can't wait. Plus an auto TT!

Looking forward to some sweet running on properly laid track and live frogs and Loksound can perform correctly.



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 Posted: Fri Apr 15th, 2011 04:10 pm
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John Dew
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Glad we could help Dave

I dont know whether I mentioned it but before I start Speed Profiling proper I run a single speed test at the max speed for the loco and keep adjusting the CV until I get that at the end of the scale......that way I get to use all the speed steps and it keeps Dr Railroad happy:lol:

I tend to set my locos at 30mph but I guess as the main line is complete I may set the larger engines a bit higher.......although even scale 30mph seems a bit unrealistic to me

wogga wrote:
With two bank holidays approaching i should have me track and 'lectrics done and the new layout in me room, then we should have some real scheduling to be done can't wait. Plus an auto TT!

Looking forward to some sweet running on properly laid track and live frogs and Loksound can perform correctly.

I know the feeling Pete...................good luck and tell us how you get on!

 



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 Posted: Sat Apr 16th, 2011 04:30 pm
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Hi All
Relaxing up in Blackburn Lancashire today at the "in-laws" and wondered if you can add to my growing knowledge on speed profiling. Thanks to John's excellent tutorial I have profiled nearly all my locos withut any problems.
However, my old Farish Railcar with a chip fitted by me a while ago which runs fine manualy is giving me some hassle (NB it is n gauge with a lenz silver mini).
I programmed the chip on Ecos for max speed of 30 mph with a 45 degree graph.
I then placed on my speed profiling track - threshold speed 2 mph - lovely.
But when starting the profile it has never reached above 5 mph giving effectively a very flat low speed profile that never gets beyond 5 mph. The only way I can get it to replicate a realistic speed for the schedules is to increase the RR&Co max speed to about 60mph. It works fine on that basis but inevitably I get the Dr Railroad message re speed accuracy. Do I need to worry?

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 Posted: Sat Apr 16th, 2011 04:45 pm
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chrishurley wrote: I programmed the chip on Ecos for max speed of 30 mph with a 45 degree graph.
I then placed on my speed profiling track - threshold speed 2 mph - lovely.
But when starting the profile it has never reached above 5 mph giving effectively a very flat low speed profile that never gets beyond 5 mph.

Peter is better at this than I..............but have you adjusted CV6 ?................however

The only way I can get it to replicate a realistic speed for the schedules is to increase the RR&Co max speed to about 60mph. It works fine on that basis but inevitably I get the Dr Railroad message re speed accuracy. Do I need to worry?
No..............just suppress that message............I have a couple like that

Kind Regards



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 Posted: Sat Apr 16th, 2011 04:49 pm
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Hi Chris, its a bit chilly ain't it, the sun is trying hard but the breeze is a bit cool.

I have a similar scenario every now and again, look at your threshold speed again. i tend to get mine just crawling on speedstep one, i know its painful during profiling fingers crossed etc hoping it will get from one side to the other.

I have noticed when setting threshold speed there are two or three scale speeds on traincontroller in speed step one, what scale speed you get depends on how you move the slider?

i would put your top speed up a bit and let the block speed control the what you need, if you change block speed it will affect all locos going through the block which i guess you know.

If all else fails put the same speed cv's in for one of your good runners and trim from there.



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