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RR&Co - Max's shunting puzzle. - RR & Co - Getting You Started. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Sun Oct 3rd, 2010 08:22 am
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wogga
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i'm glad you enjoyed it Ian he has put a lot into it.

Yes automation isn't for everyone and everyone has a choice, for me i get a buzz from watching a good routine of movement (preferably without the hand of god) on a great scenic layout where i can view from all angles.

At exhibitions a layout with several controllers operating away is superb. i can even sit and watch some of the great videos on the web.

I'm a techie geek anyway as the kids tell me "you buy anything with a plug on" so its in my genes.

Everyone to their own and its time i put Traincontroller down and got on with some scenery myself.

Regards

 

Pete



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 Posted: Tue Oct 5th, 2010 09:18 am
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MaxSouthOz
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I'm trying to bed all the B&S markers down so I can take some video and I've struck a strange phenomenon.  On some markers the train stops exactly on the same spot every time.  However on some others (always the same ones), the train stops in a different place each time.  The range of spots cover about 3 centimtres of track.

It can't be TC causing it.  I suspect that the loco might be the offender, but why does it stop perfectly in one block and randomly in another?  :hmm



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 Posted: Tue Oct 5th, 2010 06:22 pm
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wogga
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I don't know the exact answer Max, however if i am not happy B&S markers i just delete them and put back in.

With it been the same blocks i would suspect the detection unit, is it a common unit for the affected blocks? I also find that the speed of the block prior to the stopping block also affects the B&S markers reaction try it and you will see.

I am concerned about my detection at the moment and haven't yet investigated it properly yet, i notice that when the loco hits the block it is detected but then i get it dropping in and out i.e. flashing red, first thoughts poor contact but why i don't know.

I had another play at speed profiling the DMU's this weekend whilst playing with CV's and all i can say this is CRITICAL to be spot on. My problem is my track for testing and the run out isn't long enough and i am going to have to come up with a solution. if i have a good session the result is consistant performance with B&S markers and lovely acceleration and deacceleration. I must trawl the RR&co forums for advice and best practice. Almost there but not quite.

Max we will be at it for years to come! seeking perfection more addictive than fags!

 

I have an annoying sound problem Max just working out how to ask you so you can understand what i'm on about, when i have i will post it in DCC sound.

 



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 Posted: Tue Oct 5th, 2010 09:12 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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That's an idea, Pete.  I'll try that tonight.  Thanks.  I'll try to help with the sound question if I can.  If I miss it, send me a PM or an email.

Edit, afterthought:-   I've got two spare LB 101's.  I can try swapping them over if that doesn't help.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2010 10:04 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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I'm still fiddling with the B&S markers and the End Lists, trying to get a complete session to run without the Hand Of Max.  I have a small amount of acceleration time to get a smooth take off and I need 4 seconds of push back time before the loco will move.  That's fine, but in some cases it's 2 seconds and in some it's 3.  I suspect the BEMF might be the culprit as it's different for different combinations of wagons.

Just a thought.  More testing to go.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 7th, 2010 11:40 pm
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wogga
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MaxSouthOz wrote: I need 4 seconds of push back time before the loco will move.  That's fine, but in some cases it's 2 seconds and in some it's 3.  I suspect the BEMF might be the culprit as it's different for different combinations of wagons.

Just a thought.  More testing to go.


That sounds way excessive to me Max, i am still down to under a second to get a nudge back, i'll have fiddle over the weekend with a variety of engines using the same shuffle and report back.

If the threshold for reverse in speed profiling is on decoder setting one when you get smooth movement i would of thought it would be good for a shuffle?



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 Posted: Fri Oct 8th, 2010 08:30 am
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MaxSouthOz
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wogga wrote: If the threshold for reverse in speed profiling is on decoder setting one when you get smooth movement i would of thought it would be good for a shuffle?


I'm sorry, Pete.  I don't understand what you are saying.  I have programmed a small amout of acceleration time into the decoder itself to stop it snatching away in both directions.

This is a Loksound decoder, so there is an inbuilt delay which follows the engine revs increase before the loco moves anyway.  Unless the drive time delay is at least 2 seconds, the engine revs up, but the loco doesn't move.  Some are 2, most are 3 and a couple are 4 seconds.

 

It doesn't matter to me what value I put in as long as it works.  What has been happening is the loco has been making more and more mistakes since I showed RR&Co to Ian.

Here's another example:-  The loco pushes a wagon into the spur (Block 4),and stops on the Stop Marker.  When the loco goes back to collect the wagon (using the same stop marker), it pushes it back 2 centimtres.  To solve the problem, I put in another Stop Marker, 2 centimtres short of the first one and it stops with the couplers together.

When the loco pushes another wagon into Block 3 it stops on the Stop Marker in Block 3.  When the loco goes back to collect the wagon (using the same stop marker), it stops with the couplers together - as it should.

So it can go back to where it left the wagon using one Stop Marker in Block 3, but in Block 4 it needs another Stop Marker to stop in the same place.

I rejigged it all last night.  It was working well enough when I shut it down and went to bed.  I'm going to fire it up shortly to see if it has changed again.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 8th, 2010 02:13 pm
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wogga
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MaxSouthOz wrote:
This is a Loksound decoder, so there is an inbuilt delay which follows the engine revs increase before the loco moves anyway.  Unless the drive time delay is at least 2 seconds, the engine revs up, but the loco doesn't move.  Some are 2, most are 3 and a couple are 4 seconds.


 

Ah i understand, i didn't realise you had sound running as well hence your delays in the shuffle.:oops::oops::oops:

Did you sort below? what was it?

"I'm trying to bed all the B&S markers down so I can take some video and I've struck a strange phenomenon.  On some markers the train stops exactly on the same spot every time.  However on some others (always the same ones), the train stops in a different place each time.  The range of spots cover about 3 centimtres of track.

It can't be TC causing it.  I suspect that the loco might be the offender, but why does it stop perfectly in one block and randomly in another?  :hmm"




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 Posted: Fri Oct 8th, 2010 08:51 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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No, Pete.  I'm just adding extra stop markers in the places where it happens for now.  I got it very close last night, then TC switched off the sound and the loco wouldn't move.  I was about to re-boot it like I did last time that happened, when Wendy called me for dinner and then Waking the Dead came on.

I'm begining to wonder if TC and DCC sound are hard to mix.  Doesn't sound likely, but I have no real inkling as to what is wrong at the minute.  Random moving faults are hard to identify.

I'm off to see Iansa and Sol working Ian's layout at an exhibition after work this arvo, so I'm hoping to have another lash at it when I get home.  I don't get frustrated like I did before, as now I have the tools to play around with it.  It's very interesting and challenging - worth the money.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 8th, 2010 09:00 pm
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wogga
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MaxSouthOz wrote:   I don't get frustrated like I did before, as now I have the tools to play around with it.  It's very interesting and challenging - worth the money.


I agree Max, i know i have been trying to justify the expense for ages but when you weigh up the entertainment and at times the frustrations it has given  yeah it is worth it and i think there is still loads to go especially when sounds are involved.

For instance i had a quick play with an action marker tonight just had it sounding a two tone horn before it entered the tunnel portal to the fiddle yard easy peasy.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 8th, 2010 09:22 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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It's only the cost of about two DCC sound locos, Pete.  :thumbs

I'll be interested to hear how you set up the Action Marker.



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 Posted: Sat Oct 9th, 2010 10:40 am
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MaxSouthOz
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OK  I have spent some time now working out how to get TC to work with Loksound.  I chased my tail.  I would fix one problem and that would make a new one somewhere else.  I have finally got it to work regularly all the time.  This is what I learned:-

Try not to use the B&S markers for more than one Schedule if possible.  It's convenient where the loco is going into a spur and back out again during a run around, but if you have several Schedules using the same B&S markers and if you need to trim them, it throws out the other Schedules which are assigned to them.   In this case 26 Schedules = 26 B&S markers.  Too many B&S markers crammed into a Block makes it hard to make fine adjustments as they are all on top of each other.

As John has said, it is very important to label each B&S marker or trimming becomes a nightmare.

Using Loksound decoders, try to stop with the couplers over the end of the magnet and push or pull the couplers towards the middle of the magnet.  If you stop just short of the end of the magnet it stops the glad hand from being pulled across to the wrong side.

I don't know why, but the Delay for the push or pull needs to be between 2 and 4.5 seconds.

Anyway, after running it many times to make sure I finally have it right, I have made a movie of it.  26 Schedules takes about 20 minutes to run, so naturally I have had to edit it heavily to get it down to 3.5 minutes.  I hope you can make sense of it and Pete can see the Shuffles clearly enough.  Some of the shunting is a bit heavy handed, but that can be improved by adding more Schedules and more B&S markers.  :oops:

If you look closely, you will see pencil marks about 15 mm from the track, indicating each end of the magnet.

I hope you enjoy the movie. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1h7EdKL7lA



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 Posted: Sat Oct 9th, 2010 10:55 am
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wogga
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Max that is superb and too music as well:thumbs:cool winkI don't know what possessed you to come up with such a routine but as a demo of what can be done and what you have acheived its all in a nice neat package. Did i hear the coupling as well as the cheeky little horn?

Spot on i shall now watch it again.

Pete



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 Posted: Sat Oct 9th, 2010 11:48 am
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MaxSouthOz
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Thanks, Pete.  Coupler is next.  :chicken



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 Posted: Sat Oct 9th, 2010 01:30 pm
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lovely piece of work Max, I would say worth all the hassle,mine won`t uncouple that smooth.

:doublethumb:lol::cool:

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 Posted: Sat Oct 9th, 2010 06:06 pm
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An extremely good video Max

To do that has taken a great deal of work on your part and has been a steep learning curve for you
Now having achieved that im sure now you have the confidence to attempt some much more complex things.

Well done Max

Brian

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 Posted: Sat Oct 9th, 2010 06:22 pm
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wogga wrote: MaxSouthOz wrote:   I don't get frustrated like I did before, as now I have the tools to play around with it.  It's very interesting and challenging - worth the money.


I agree Max, i know i have been trying to justify the expense for ages but when you weigh up the entertainment and at times the frustrations it has given  yeah it is worth it and i think there is still loads to go especially when sounds are involved.



I dont believe I have used this phrase before (didnt exist when I emigrated or is it Cornish?) but now seems to be the moment:

WOTESED :cheers:cheers:cheers

Couldnt agree more..........it seemed a huge amount of money......6 tank engines for me..............but has totally transformed my  approach to the hobby...........admiitedly I sometimes feel this is the most appropriate icon:brickwall 

Great video Max......sound is down on my computor so I have to wait for that but the pictures are great

Is it ok if I post the link to the tutorial introduction to show what can be eventually achieved?

Kind Regards



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 Posted: Sat Oct 9th, 2010 09:49 pm
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MaxSouthOz
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Thanks, Owen.  It took a couple of evenings to fine tune the whiskers, but worth the effort.

Thanks, Brian.  It's this sort of stuff that keeps my brain supple.

. . . and thanks to you, John; for your patient help.  Pete and Matt as well.  By all means post the link.  It's in the public section for anyone to look at.  I'm a bit honoured to have it in your tutorial.

I reckon that the sound makes it :thumbs  I hope your computer is fixed soon.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 15th, 2010 01:29 pm
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John Dew wrote: WOTESED

There is an extra e in it - woteesed!!

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 Posted: Fri Oct 15th, 2010 03:41 pm
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Christrerise wrote: John Dew wrote: WOTESED

There is an extra e in it - woteesed!!

I wondered about that and decided this could be the transatlantic version:mutley:mutley



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