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Engine Shed (gaugemaster) Show Ford West Sussex - Model Railway Shows. - Model Railway Layouts. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Mon Sep 7th, 2009 11:22 pm
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Sol
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Petermac wrote: .

Having said that,  if I'm charging to take my layout,  then maybe it's reasonable for me to pay for any barriers but I'm sure it's the organisers who pay normally :roll::roll::roll:

Peter, as I mentioned on another thread, in Oz, it is normally the exhibitor who has to arrange a barrier if they require one, not the organisers.

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 Posted: Mon Sep 7th, 2009 11:49 pm
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Petermac
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That would make sense Sol given that they've been paid to come along.

Jeff - your idea of ropes and posts of some kind sounds as if it would work well - provided we don't get swamped by visitors. :roll::roll:  I suppose it's going to be difficult this first time - if we get hundreds, then a piece of cotton would do - if we get thousands,  then football stadium type cages might struggle. :hmm



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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 12:02 am
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Gwent Rail
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If all the members who are coming to the show pop into the local bank on the way and borrow those nifty little posts with pull out bands (used to make us all queue) the problem will be sorted. :thumbs:thumbs :lol::lol::lol:

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 12:10 am
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Petermac
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Gwent Rail wrote: If all the members who are coming to the show pop into the local bank on the way and borrow those nifty little posts with pull out bands (used to make us all queue) the problem will be sorted. :thumbs:thumbs :lol::lol::lol:
:mutley:mutley:mutley:mutley

I think Post Offices have those but for the real gem you need Stanstead Airport security check-in.  There's enough of them there to line the M1 :cheers:cheers



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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 11:20 am
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Wheeltapper
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Joking aside can I put up a worst case scenario .

The exhibitors are expected by the organisers to provide their own barrier if  they think its required .

Someone viewing the layout is pushed or trips and falls against the layout causing it substantial damage and injure themselves in the process.

We live in a blame  and litigation culture in the UK these days and under Health & Safety Regulations it would be said the show organisers have a duty of care towards both the exhibitor and the visiting public alike .

If barriers have not been provided by the organisers it could be said if it came to court that the organisers had failed in their duty of care and would therefore be liable to pay any damages for personal injury or damage to exhibitors property.

Ultimately if the exhibition did not have sufficient insurance or  funds then the sponsors could possibly be required to meet the bill .

The show is being promoted as rather more than just a local event and quite possibly will attract big crowds .The publicity may also attract attention from the authorities . If on the day of the show we are suddenly faced with large numbers of visitors and do not have the wherewithall in place to deal with them we are going to be in deep trouble.

I am rather playing devils advocate with this - what do other people think ?



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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 11:46 am
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Gwiwer
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I think that your "worst case scenario" is a valid caution since it is a situation which may arise. I currently work in insurance and am very well aware of the basic ethos there being "What level of risk are you prepared to shoulder?" The balance to be struck is determining what level of risk is unacceptable and that is where we require cover.

A well-managed show will not permit more people inside at one time than the manager or stewards feel is safe and appropriate. Some shows fail to recognise this and will continue to admit ever more patrons rather than have a frustrated queue at the door.

The truth is that we cannot reliably predict the sort of numbers a new show might attract. We are working in an area where there are other well-known shows (Hayle in particular comes to mind) but even a record of attendance there is not a reliable indicator of attendance at Camborne.

The show needs to be stewarded efficiently and with clear lines of command and instruction. If it should become filled to capacity that should be quickly made clear to the door stewards who will then so advise anyone still waiting to enter.

Once inside the floor stewards should be aware of the general mood, of crowd behaviour and possibly spot and control any potential difficult cases. There may well be none but we need to be alert to the fact that we may have a few less than desireable people present, or some who are simply unsure of etiquette in such a situation.

The Manager would be responsible for ascertaining whether invited exhibitors have their own insurance, require us to provide cover, what extent of cover they have or require and the approximate value of their exhibit. The owners of the venue must have Public Liability Insurance as I understand the current British Law which will cover serious untoward events and claims against the venue itself. We may need to obtain suitable cover to meet any claim against us as organisers.

There needs to be some sort of a constitution of the organising body unless individuals are to be left open to claims against them in the name of the show. It is possible that this might be under the wing of a third party if suitable agreement were reached with that party.

And there are some events which are genuinely accidental and for which no-one can ultimately be held liable. These are typically minor first aid matters and we may need to invite someone like St Johns Ambulance to be present to cover any emergency of that sort.

We as organisers are not responsible as I understand it for the unlawful acts of visitors. An exhibitor or owner should take responsible steps to ensure their own property is suitable covered in case of theft or malicious damage. It is a sad fact that this happens but it sometimes does.

Ownership for insurance purposes of the YMR modules should be clearly determined before they are shown also. I am assuming for now that the individual modules will be considered to be the property of the separate builders, property which just happens to be joined together and with rolling stock owned by several individuals running between all the modules during the show.

It's a lot to take in. But it comes down to that first question of what level of risk do we accept and what do we pay for others to shoulder? And what are our legal obligations in those areas also?

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 11:49 am
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Gwent Rail
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:hmm I think that I'm probably sensible enough to comply with all the insurer's requirements when the time comes - whatever that may entail. :thumbs:thumbs

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 11:51 am
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Gwiwer
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And experienced, Jeff. Though not all of us may share your level of expertise.

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 12:20 pm
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Gwent Rail
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Adequate insurance must be bought, Rick and all reasonable precautions must be made, but if every eventuality was covered to it's "worst case scenario" there would never be an exhibition of anything   ...   anywhere.

An alternative approach, which does somewhat alleviate the legal minefield of compensation litigation, is not to actually charge admission per se, but rather to issue people with a "day membership" ticket. It means we would need to have some tickets printed in "Adult", "Senior" and "junior" categories, but the legal liability dramatically reduces to members as opposed to "paying public".

It may be felt that the printing of tickets was a desireable thing anyway, as there is much benefit in making advanced ticket purchase available. When I organised various shows for a living, we did surveys on ticket pre-sales. Almost 15% of pre-sales never turn up, sometimes even more, whilst over 10% of those that come say that due to last minute issues, they would not have if they hadn't bought a ticket.

Amazingly, advanced tickets can increase your entry takings by 20% + :exclam:exclam

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 12:33 pm
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Gwiwer
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Now that's an idea I'll :cheers to. It has been my experience also that when advance tickets are sold the revenue is higher than relying on the "door" and probably the weather on the day as well.

When I was managing a band in that part of the world we always did better if we could sell tickets but the legalities of playing the pub circuit made that impossible in most venues.

And of course we might have a ready-made outlet (or two) for tickets in the area so long as there is no conflict of interests.

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 01:06 pm
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Petermac
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Regrettably, all good and valid points today Gentlemen.

I've already retained my solicitor to make a huge claim for the injuries - both physical and mental - that I shall suffer when I bump into the door which had, with extreme neglect,  been left in such a position that it blocked the opening through which I required to pass, was not suitably marked with a large notice saying "Please open this door before attempting to enter the building" and nor was it lit in case I had wished to gain access during the night to steal some of the said buildings contents !!!!

OK, joking aside, that does seem to be they way today's tree huggers are moving but I wonder if there is a legal capacity for the venue ?  As it's a "public building" (is it ?), do we need things like St. John's Ambulance attendance.

I'm sure you've gone through all this crap several times Jeff but you can't even take common sense for granted today as far as the public is concerned.  Do anything you want to and some b*****d will sue you !!!!

Incidentally, if you wish to insure (and destroy) my module, at a rough calculation, it's value will be around £800 :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll: - please pop the claim form in the post.




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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 01:42 pm
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Christrerise
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Please do not forget that we are not all novices at this.  We have the assistance of Redruth club as well who hold a much larger exhibition than us at Carn Brea and most of what is being talked about is already sorted.

No trade stand has barriers around it.  What is the difference?  You could just as easily trip or be pushed onto one and cause as much damage or injury. 

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 04:08 pm
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Wheeltapper
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No we are not all novices at this - personally I have 40 odd years experience of organising events and exhibitions both on an amateur and professional level ranging from one day village type events upto and including world reknowned shows attended by thousands of exhibitors and tens of thousands of visitors at Olympia , Earls Court and the NEC.

Every event is different and all have their individual problems - its a well known fact in the exhibition world it is far more difficult to organise and run a small show  well than it is a major event . On small shows any errors or mistakes made by the organisers are glaringly obvious - on a big show no-one usually notices .

Now I am quite happy to turn up and show my layout as an exhibitor . If my experience in event organisation can be of assistance then I am quite happy to offer whatever advice or help is needed - if its not wanted or needed  then that is absolutely fine as well.

Richard

 

 

 



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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 04:14 pm
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Robert
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We are lucky to have such experienced people on the forum and now is the time to make full use of them, plus the outside help that is available, and let them get on with it.



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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 04:22 pm
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Gwent Rail
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Wheeltapper wrote: No we are not all novices at this - personally I have 40 odd years experience of organising events and exhibitions both on an amateur and professional level ranging from one day village type events upto and including world reknowned shows attended by thousands of exhibitors and tens of thousands of visitors at Olympia , Earls Court and the NEC.
Now I am quite happy to turn up and show my layout as an exhibitor . If my experience in event organisation can be of assistance then I am quite happy to offer whatever advice or help is needed - if its not wanted or needed  then that is absolutely fine as well.

Richard


Not wanted or needed ??? You must be 'avin a larf mate.

PM me and I'll have a dozen different jobs waiting that you can help with. :thumbs:thumbs:thumbs

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 04:26 pm
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Christrerise
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Woteesed

Beat me to it Jeff!

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 04:52 pm
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Petermac
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Richard, if you join in the organisation of the show,  I can get back to checking out the Bordeaux Superior !! :cheers:cheers:cheers

Welcome aboard my friend. :thumbs:thumbs



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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 05:45 pm
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Wheeltapper
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Jeff

:hmm I should be doing this :pedalbut there is a PM on the way.

 

Cheers

 

Richard



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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 06:36 pm
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owen69
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I should be doing this :pedal

well you will have to learn how to steer mate.

:mutley:mutley:mutley:cool:

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 Posted: Tue Sep 8th, 2009 07:15 pm
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One of our local companies produces an alternative to crowd control barriers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Aug

 

Thomas



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