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00 Gauge - Bradford Wheregate? - Members Personal Layouts. - Model Railway Layouts. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 10:34 am
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mojo1
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Mojo's stacker (see Scratchbuilding) was only constructed to feed lots of trains into the fiction that is Bradford Westgate, my new layout. Always one for looking for a further justification for buying a new piece of kit I have put together the following history to give my train set a reason to be! And to explain what two Blue Pullmans are doing in the West Riding. With apologies to the various accounts of the area I have read in preparation for this new layout I'd like to tell you a story.

Bradford Wheregate?

The railway mania of the 19th century had left Bradford, effectively, at the end of two branch lines. These terminated at Bradford Exchange and Bradford Forster Square and were owned and worked by the Great Northern and Lancashire and Yorkshire, and the Midland railways respectively.
It soon became apparent to the local politicians and businessmen of Bradford that Leeds had gained a considerable advantage over them due to its status as a through route. They could see how commerce was being drawn away eastwards and that Leeds was rapidly developing into the centre of trade for the whole of the West Riding of Yorkshire.
As a result, in 1894, plans were drawn up between Bradford city council, local business and the three railway companies to link the two “branch lines” into one through main line.
Immediately, major obstacles became apparent. The centre of Bradford would have required a massive viaduct across Forster Square, the showpiece of the town, in order to link the town’s two stations. There would be fearsome gradients and awkward access to the through line via a high level station. The cost of demolition, clearance and rebuilding was deemed unacceptable politically, especially as the town hall itself would have to be torn down and rebuilt elsewhere. Furthermore, any new works would have to avoid disruption of the many watercourses, which supplied the mills and factories in the area.
While these points were being debated the country slipped into recession, affecting both manufacturing and transport. This left the Midland, Great Northern and Lancashire and Yorkshire companies short of the finances needed to undertake the project, either individually or collectively. Because of the clear advantages to all of another through route further partners were sought. The North Eastern jumped at the chance, having been excluded from the original consortium. Eventually the Great Central also agreed to share the costs, mindful of the opportunity available to it by gaining access via Skipton to the NorthWest. Additionally, all the companies would benefit from the lessening of the congestion around Leeds.
After a number of surveys it was decided the only feasible route would be a double track spur from St Dunstan’s junction, on the approach to Exchange Station. This would burrow under Manchester Road, skirting the city centre to the west of Forster Square, before emerging again at Manningham, to join the Midland “branch” and onwards to Shipley and the Aire Valley line. The engineering required was daunting. It would require sharp curvatures and a falling gradient for down trains, but a fearsome climb against the same curvature for up trains. The whole line would be enclosed in a single bore tunnel, as cut and cover would have necessitated too much disruption and purchasing of property along the route.
Part of the plan was to keep the existing city stations as no new station was envisaged on the through line. Trains would pull into either terminus, effectively making Forster Square the up station, and Exchange the down station for Bradford. They would then reverse out to regain the through line to continue north or south. Trains that had normally terminated at either station would continue to do so.
Parliamentary approval was gained in 1895 and construction began. The line soon came to be known as the “Westgate Stacker” due to the way the trains became stacked up, one behind the other as they awaited their paths through the restricted complex. It new route was to be jointly owned by the six participating companies, with the Midland running the line on behalf of the others.
In 1898 the spur was complete and each side of the city was finally linked. Then the problems began.
Operationally it was a nightmare. It was soon apparent that the reversal of trains out of both Exchange and Forster Square led to further congestion as they attempted to regain the through routes. Traffic levels had already exceeded expectations in both passenger and freight working. Now any advantages gained through the development were rapidly dissipating in the face of delays and blocked sections of track, as trains were held to allow the prestige services to manoeuvre out of the termini in order to continue their journey. The other companies soon began to believe that the Midland signalmen were favouring their own company’s trains when it came to allocating paths through Bradford. This could not continue.
The logical option was a new through station on the spur, and the closure of both Exchange and Forster Square. However, the financial climate of the early 20th century was in marked contrast to the boom of the previous years. The railway companies balked at the prospect of such capital expenditure in the short term, even though the long-term benefits were recognised.
In the hope of moving the project forward the city council offered various inducements to encourage the investment. It offered to indemnify the companies against any claims incurred regarding interruption of water supplies. It also agreed to purchase any buildings affected by development of the agreed station site. The railway companies would, in turn, bear the cost of building the station and the necessary earthworks.
In the end an agreement was only reached when the London and North Western Railway, mindful of being excluded further from the area, agreed to participate. However, any plans for a grandiose station reflecting the stature of the various companies were soon lost in the face of economic realities. Although Bradford Council wanted a station befitting the premier town of the West Riding they were not prepared to meet the costs. On the other hand the companies wanted a practical solution, and as cheap as possible.
Eventually, a scaled down plan was agreed by all parties, and presented to Parliament. Both Exchange and Forster Square would remain open for local traffic but their status would be diminished, kept purely for terminating and local services. However, the new station would only have 4 platform faces to service the through trains. Bi-directional running through the station would be inherent in the scheme to allow maximum use of the track work that could be squeezed in to the restricted site. Additionally, there would be two through roads avoiding the platforms, allowing freight to move continually. The bottleneck at the south tunnel still existed, as there was no room to open up into either a cutting or further tunnel bores.
Parliament amended the original 1895 bill and construction commenced with the opening up of the tunnel below the Westgate district of Bradford.
Because of the narrow site and the need to keep the costs down by avoiding wholesale demolitions the station would always be cramped, trapped as it was between the ends of the now opened up tunnel. Massive retaining walls were needed for the deep cutting. The enginemen, at least, welcomed the brief respite from the smoke filled single bore Westgate tunnel, as their trains were often held in the station platforms or through roads to allow faster trains to pass.
In order to maximise the operating return, provision was also made for goods handling by way of a hydraulic wagon lift and warehouse at the south end of the cutting, while a parcels and mail handling building was sited at the north end. Eventually the parcel and goods handling took over the warehouse at the south end, with the north end building kept for storage. Like the station, the goods and parcels facilities were restricted, with much shunting necessary to access the foreshortened goods platforms.
Despite these handicaps, in 1903 the station was completed and opened by the Mayor of Bradford, His Worship Mr Hornby Bachmann.
Immediately timings improved but required skilled driving to lift the heavy trains southwards through the curves and varying gradients of the “Stacker”. These workings often required assistance out of the station, necessitating the locating of banking engines in the station area. Many trains slipped to a halt as they attempted the climb south out of Westgate, unaided, causing more congestion as the banker was sent to rescue them. Inevitably, the station cutting was always filled with smoke. Many passengers preferred to remain in the cleaner air of the station building before risking an undignified scramble to reach the platforms to board their trains!
From the 1921 grouping through to nationalisation in 1948, Bradford Westgate, as it was officially known, was administered jointly by the LMS and the LNER up until its take-over by British Railways. Each company had their own signal box at either end of the station, controlling the routes in and out, as far as the junctions with the lines emanating from Bradford’s two other stations. To ensure fair play with setting paths both boxes had two signalmen, each drawn from the respective companies, to keep an eye on the other.
In the early1960’s Westgate came under the control of the North Eastern region, its strategic importance emphasised by the decision to rebuild Leeds City station. More through traffic via the Aire Valley route was diverted away from Leeds during this period, which added to the complications of working the Westgate layout. Colour light signalling was introduced to smooth the flow and one of the signal boxes was closed. However, the speed restrictions coupled with the gradients and curvature ensured that no fast running would ever be possible through the station complex in either direction.
Along with the Beeching report came the decision to close both Exchange and Forster Square which saw their last trains in 1965. Despite its cramped situation Westgate was deemed to have sufficient capacity for both the local and long distance traffic for the foreseeable future.
A Leeds-Bradford-Leeds circular DMU service had been introduced which had developed into a well-patronised service with potential for expansion. In contrast, local freight services had declined but there were still many trip workings across the city, which caused hold-ups throughout the layout. These ensured sufficient traffic to give the operating department headaches in ensuring a continuous flow through the station. Much smart working was done by all in the operating department to keep the traffic moving.
As the 1960’s unfolded diesels took over more and more of the steam turns. The lack of preparation for the changes in motive power, especially of purpose built servicing facilities, was guaranteed to ensure a high failure rate. This led to steam taking back many of the workings they had been displaced from. The Bradford district was renowned for appropriating any engine passing through in order to meet their own traffic needs. Rumours abounded that shed masters were even inclined to grab locomotives on their way to the scrap yards. Though this was denied, many engines thought long gone to the cutter’s torch turned up in the area to work, confusing the train spotters. In order to maintain these locomotives both Manningham and Low Moor sheds were kept open to cover the local demand, and service the inter regional workings that were still steam hauled.
By 1966 everything was in a state of flux, and no one was sure what would happen next.
Bradford Westgate, at this time, could still be reached directly from both King’s Cross and St Pancras. The hourly Eastern region trains terminated alternately at either Leeds City or Westgate after first calling at the other station. Through services, such as the Queen of Scots Pullman, continued to call at both stations on their way north and south.
St Pancras services ran alternately through Leeds and Bradford on Anglo-Scottish expresses, with fewer Midland trains terminating in either city. Great Central trains from Marylebone had already ended with the imminent closure of that main line in the same year.
Trans Pennine passenger trains ran alternately through Bradford or direct to Leeds, while some of the heavier freights were re-routed through Westgate. These ran on to Skipton then via the Colne valley line to Burnley, or across to the oil terminal at Heysham.
In addition Westgate still generated a sizeable amount of parcels and goods traffic of its own.
However, despite its position in rivalry to Leeds City, Westgate was not immune to the threat of rationalisation. The considerable costs of maintaining the “Stacker” led to plans to close the through route, with Westgate only being served from the north, effectively returning the city to its status as a branch line terminus, with Leeds capturing all the through traffic. Only four platform faces had ever been available for passenger use, sharing these with parcels and mail traffic, and there was little scope for improvement, given the confined nature of the site.
Faced with the potential political fallout from diminishing Bradford’s status the government of the day overturned British Rail’s plans. The station layout would be maintained much as before in order to facilitate bi-directional running on all tracks. This ensured Westgate’s survival as a through route. Work would be done to reline the tunnels, another cause for concern, once steam was banished from the rails.
With its longer term future secure Westgate’s passenger services were further refined in the forthcoming 1967 timetable. The city would continue to be served by both the Midland and Eastern regions. However, the Anglo Scottish expresses calling at Westgate would originate only from St Pancras. The hourly Eastern region trains would terminate alternately at either Leeds or Bradford, as before, but without calling at the other station. The King’s Cross expresses to the north would only run through Leeds. This would include the Pullmans via Harrogate and Ripon to Scotland. However, portions of various Down East Coast trains, including the Pullman’s, would be split at Wakefield to run through Bradford, before being joined up again at Harrogate. The reverse would also happen with the Up trains.
In anticipation of the protest at the downgrading of rail services to London and the north British Rail Midland region, who would soon assume responsibility for the district, offered Bradford refurbished Blue Pullmans, made redundant with the electrification of the West Coast main line. This was also seen as a way of retaining the lucrative business traffic and speeding up the Midland route to London. These trains were required only to stop at Sheffield Midland on their way to and from St Pancras.
Overall, British Rail’s overall strategy was to place the rebuilt Leeds City as the main station for the West Riding, with other towns fed by local services. While the through status of Westgate was recognised, there were no plans to develop it further.
With this decision any thoughts of rebuilding Westgate were effectively shelved. Future traffic projections would not require anything more than cosmetic touches, leaving the long suffering passengers to endure the dingy environs of the Westgate cutting.
With the end of steam forecast for the year after next many specials began to run through Westgate, adding to the gloom. Despite the growing number of diesels available to the operating departments, a surprising number of steam locomotives still plied their trade through the West Riding and along the “Stacker” to Lancashire and the north.
It was if time had stood still in 1966, and 1968 would never come.

Although some idea was given of the layout in the videos I posted to show the workings of the stacker I will post photos once the reality sets in and I convince myself there really was a Bradford Westgate!



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 Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:19 pm
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georgejacksongenius
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Blimey!!!!.........You've convinced me!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Cheers,John.B.



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 Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 12:28 pm
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owen69
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that was an interesting if somewhat lengthy read,must have taken a while to write. :wink: :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: 8)

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 Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 03:54 am
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henryparrot
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Mojo

A superb History and very believable whilst reading it i had to keep reminding myself you had composed this history yourself.

Im sure if my memory is correct all Uk railway companys used the Bradford and Westgate line for testing all their locomotives and rolling stock to get a performance standard before they used them on their own lines is that right Mojo? :wink: :wink:

cheers Brian.W

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 Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 06:01 am
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Sol
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Mojo, the History lesson should be retained in the Archives of the Forum.

I know nowt about English railays as such & this "history" story is very good & plausible.

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 Posted: Sun May 4th, 2008 07:23 am
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Les
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Mojo,

The last I heard was (and this is true) there was a proposal to flood Forster Square as a feature. :?

Just think if they did that you could include a harbour scene, ferry trains, coal barges etc etc etc. :lol: :lol: :lol:

This sounds fascinating and novel - I'll watch with interest. :D :D

Les



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 Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 02:32 am
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Marty
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Sounds like a soapy...
"The other companies soon began to believe that the Midland signalmen were favouring their own company’s trains when it came to allocating paths through Bradford." :twisted:
... and I wouldn't be suprised if the Midland District Inspector had been spotted in the Railway Cafe with the Great Northern Stationmaster's wife :?: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What a wonderful background... carefully crafted to allow maximum exposure to Loco's and rolling stock.
Looking forward to seeing the "Stacker" develop.
cheers



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 Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 06:12 pm
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Gwent Rail
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:shock: :shock: Good gawd :!: :!: That's one hell of a history, Mojo.
With an imagination like that, anything is possible :!:
Can't wait to see the "reality" when you start the build.

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 Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 04:00 pm
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mojo1
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Sorry it was so long but you should have seen the unedited version.
Brian, re testing. Thanks for the reminder. The LNER and later Eastern region certainly used the Leeds and Bradford lines on running in turns for ex works engines from Doncaster. And the S&C starts just to the north of Bradford, and was a favourite testing run for new locomotives for the Midland. Anything could turn up, with the ex works engines accounting for the pristine condition of my locos-I'm still summoning up the courage to fire my airbrush in the direction of messrs Bachman, Hornby and Heljan's finest.
Les, re the flooding of Forster Square, a mate of mine from the other premier city in the West Riding, and I don't mean Huddersfield, suggested that they shouldn't stop with the square but should flood the whole place. He made some very uncomplimentary remarks about the good citizens of Bradford, which I, originally from London, am not in a position to comment on.
Marty, truth is stranger than fiction. When the GN and the GC built and ran Nottingham Victoria each company posted their own signalman in each of the two boxes which controlled the limited access and exit routes in and out of the station. I have tried to find out how it worked eg did they arm wrestle for the next train path, draw cards, how do you decide who gets priority? Unfortunately I haven't been able to source that info.



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 Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 08:22 pm
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Marty
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The next train from platform 4 will leave as soon as the signalmen have diced for the path :lol: :lol: :lol: What a way to run a railway.
cheers



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 Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 11:58 am
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mojo1
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What with house moves and kitchen ceilings coming down due to a boiler leak (must have been made in Swindon) I've been lucky to have got some modelling time in. Recent developments have been wiring up all the sections and motorising the points before starting on the scenics.


This is the control panel. The top two rows of switches are for the colour light signals yet to be installed, one of the last jobs I think to avoid damage. The next six rows are for points and the final row of six for the track sectioning. Not all are in use but I thought that if I ever built another layout then the switches could be left as they are. Usually, I have mounted the switches on a track plan but the space considerations precluded this option. The switches are numbered in pencil at the moment while I work out a way of being able to add professional looking numbers to the panel. I had considered DCC but the cost of having to chip my collection of locos was unrealistic. If I ever did it it would be because of the sound opportunities.
Also, because of the space issue the panel is designed to slide back under the baseboard on drawer runners. Also on it are ammeters and voltmeters for both up and down controllers, as well as rewired lamps on extended cables to the Gaugemaster track cleaners to indicate the state of the track and connections. Despite some concerns about the possible damage to wheels I have never found any evidence of pitting on any of mine. I have also settled on Bachman wheels as substitutes for any plastic wheels that might appear which has helped to keep the tracks clean.


This shows the station building which has been extended further back to give the impression that the line runs straight on rather than turning through 180 degrees to the left. I use foamboard for the rough outlines and then the base structure of the buildings. At last I have managed to get some platform surfaces on which gives it the start of the appearance of a station.


This is the track plan and shows the oval squeezed into 12' by 6'. The station is in the top left hand corner. The red figures are the track sections, the green ones the point numbers and the blue ones the signal indications. The blue box at the bottom is the stacker. The hatched lines show the amount of track not visible scenically. I had decided that I would try, for this layout, to do a small part of the railway with as much detail as possible and watch the trains run through it. Physically the space available meant either choosing shorter trains and no main line or showing some of it in increased detail. Only time will tell whether this will be sufficient to prevent another layout biting the dust. Operationally there is shunting in the parcels depots, and dmus crossing over to reverse but otherwise the trains will generally run as units with the occasional swap. 4 double slips and the intended signalling will allow the illusion of bi directional running but because there is not pointwork at the far end of the station only the dmus can effectively reverse. On this layout I want to spend more time on learning how to detail and weather stock as well as try to master the art of structures and backdrops.
As far as the stacker is concerned I have not had time recently to add the track to another level (number 4) but this is the next priority in order to liberate the rolling stock from their boxes. It's still working okay and nothing has either fallen off or derailed. Maybe the way forward for those with space considerations is vertical.



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 Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 12:41 pm
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Great post mojo and very neat work.



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 Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 12:57 pm
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That is some control panel and a track plan, plenty of work and threads on this coming i can see, cant wait.
Phill



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 Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 01:49 pm
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owen69
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that is a smart layout coming together,iam taken with the control board on runners,will have to try that.( not breeching patents am i )
:wink: :lol: :lol: 8)

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 Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 01:53 pm
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Bob K
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Wow! you have been busy. I can understand why it has taken you a while to do all this as it is quite a complex set up. I like the way the station area is coming together too.

Bob(K)



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 Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 05:17 pm
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georgejacksongenius
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Mojo,
That control panel looks like something from "Thunderbirds"!!!
There's enough switches there for Paddington.Very impressive indeed,and what is that old piece of equipment on the wall??
Looks like a piece of kit from a signalbox.

Cheers,John.B.



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 Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 05:32 pm
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henryparrot
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Mojo

Very impressive work there you have been busy.

The switch and control panel look very smart indeed and you have now started the structure work

I look forward to updates as the layout progresses


cheers Brian.W

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 Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 06:15 pm
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Hi guys, thanks for the compliments. The piece of equipment is a track occupancy and signalling apparatus for ringing through bell codes to the next signal box. I got it for peanuts in the mid 70s in a shop on Tyneside. It doesn't say where it was from but I did manage to get the bell to work by pressing the plunger after wiring it up to a DC supply.



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 Posted: Sun Jun 29th, 2008 07:01 pm
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Mojo, I too had some impressive panels on my various analogue layouts & was contemplating similar for this new layout but decided as a matter of operator effeciency/ease of use to convert to DCC - not so much in reduced wiring but in actual operating.

Your comment:-
"I had considered DCC but the cost of having to chip my collection of locos was unrealistic. "

I too had thought of that & it was also one of my arguments against going DCC but it was pointed out that it would be rare for anyone layout to run dozens of locos in the one session & in thinking about that, yes I only ran a maximum of 7 different locos in any one 3 hour session with 4 operators.
When I first converted, I had 2 locos done in January 08 & now have 9 done & that would be adequate for a good operating session.

I do expect that a couple of kit built locos may never get converted but time will tell.
While the amount of wiring may not reduce much, I find that in not having to switch sections on & off in bring trains down from branch liine, across 2 main lines & into yards easy with DCC. I only have to switch points.

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 Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 03:55 am
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mojo1
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Hi Ron, thanks for your advice. Unfortunately, having collected more locos than the National Rail Museum and learning to do verbal gymnastics to justify their presence on my layout I am loathe to sideline them (excuse the pun) by just chipping a few. When I built the stacker it was with the intention of using all the locos. I had considered leaving the layout analogue but also being able to switch it to DCC for new, chipped locos, to take advantage of the lights, sound etc. This may still be an option but I'd need a foolproof way of ensuring the two systems didn't get mixed up with the frying of chips the outcome. Nevertheless, you've given me some food for thought.

Thanks.



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 Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 04:21 am
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Sol
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Mojo, it was not my intention in that you only chip some locos & not the others - no, just enough to get you through a couple of operating seesions & slowly the others as time & money allow.
For instance, one of my goods services used to take about 2 hours to trundle from hidden siding to 4 stations & back dropping off & shunting as required.

Now DCC locos run very well on DC ( unless programmed not to) & thus will not fry but DC on DCC is not recommended especially leaving them sit still for too long. Then those DC motors will fry.
I will be sitting my DC locos on some tracks in my MPD & these tracks will not be wired for some time.

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 Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 02:27 pm
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With the stacker happily grinding away I reckoned it was time to get on with providing a layout for it to feed. Although I had previously laid track, installed point motors and finished the control panel (the mechanical aspects have always interested me most) I got caught out in my own gumption trap of trying to figure out what to do, and what to do next. This was partly a result of my not being very sure of my abilities scenic wise as I rarely have got so far with a layout that it required that much scenery. The following is where I've reached since the last post in June.



The gathering of the tools! Eventually the space they occupy will be the high level concourse for the station to the right. There are actually tracks going off into an imaginary somewhere underneath the chaos.

 



This shows the platform ends with barrow crossing installed. To the left of this you can just make out the subway bridging I've installed for the Peco steps which are inset into the platforms. I've done this now as my intention is to go for broke and do some serious, non stop ballasting, and I needed things in place before starting.

 



This shows the parcels depot platforms disappearing under what is intended to be a warehouse. This gives me the shunting potential.



Another view of the crossing and bridging girders for the subway. The signal is just there for clearance testing purposes. I intend to signal the layout as much as possible, using two aspect colour lights.



Just one of my favourite locos. I've yet to do the platform edging.



The rather cramped loading stage for the parcels depot.



A low level shot of the depot. I used a piece of silver covered board to give the impression of depth, but a mirror would be better, I think. Just have to find one the right size.



Having been unable to do Matt's cast walls justice I looked around for something else I could use for the six foot or so of retaining walls I needed. Being partial to card and balsa modelling I used an old stock of foam board, embossing it with a screwdriver and sharp pencil. I did the same for the balsa column. I'd forgotten what a good medium balsa is for modelling purposes.



Although I've given the walls a light wash prior to weathering I must admit that the colour and shading aspect of weathering scenery is something I baulk at. I suspect it may be a while before I take paint to subject. Sandtex do tester pots of their stone paint for £1.99 which comes in stone shades. One pot would last for ages.



I've still to number the panel in a more professional way, but I have added the track diagram on a swivel that opens out when you pull the panel out on its runners. I just couldn't find anywhere else for it.



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Christrerise
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I like the girders for the Subway - I probably would have forgotten to have them!

Coming on nicely Mojo:cool:

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It all looks excellent to me !! I like the shot of the loco sat at the platform !

John
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owen69
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Mojo1,know what you mean about scenery,i was the same but with all the info
on here you will do ok.
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MikeC
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This is going to be good. I too like the loco at the platform. I know many or most members will know what it is, but I don't. The platforms are great.
Also I think the silvery board is a great idea!! Perhaps something a tiny bit clearer, without the exact reflection that a mirror gives would be ideal. I'm going to keep my eyes open for something like that.
Keep those pics coming.

Mike

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Mojo

Some seroius progress there you certainly are planning well ahead some good planning on your behalf you already have it in your minds eye what you are trying to achieve do as much as you can before ballasting .

cheers Brian.W

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Hi Mike, it's a class 27 (Heljan), a bit out of place really as most of them were allocated to Scotland initially, all the remainder gone there by 1968. They worked the West Highland lines and also push pull trains between Edinburgh and Glasgow. I travelled behind a few in Scotland and just took to them. Something about the sound of a Sulzer engine, (after a Napier Deltic of course), and me a steam buff. All scrapped by 1987. It's a lovely runner but the wheels tarnish very quickly, as do my other Heljan type 2 diesels. Otherwise it'll pull anything I can stick behind it.



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Nothing new, just posting to say how much I don't like ballasting! Has anyone come up with a new slant on the pva/water/misting formula for track that is already laid? Help, before I bury myself in the 6 foot.



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Gwent Rail
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No real alternative as far as I'm concerned, Mojo, just "head down ar** up" and get on with it. I tend to do bits at a time now, as large stretches do my head.

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mojo1
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Ah, one can only dream that someday some nice manufacturer will produce one in 4mm scale and all my problems will be solved. But for now I still hate ballasting.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=htg8TEz7Y_Y&feature=related



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henryparrot
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Mojo

As Jeff said break away from the ballasting for a little while otherwise it does your head  in its probably one of the most tedious jobs to do in model railways.

cheers Brian.W

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 Posted: Sun Oct 5th, 2008 04:11 pm
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mojo1
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Having made attempts to ballast the parcels depot as a practise run for the rest of the layout disaster overtook me.



Aagh!



And again. A combination of bad profiling of the ballast, too weak a glue mix, too much powder in the ballast mix resulting in the misting process blowing it away, and a total lack of gumption on my part meant having to take the whole lot up and consider slot car racing as an alternative. Then I remembered a post by Bob about a ballast spreader for sale. Having looked it up on the forum I figured I could come up with something similar.



The aluminium tube from inside of a roller blind I had cut back to fit in our new house. Never throw anything away. I cut 4 grooves into it to fit onto the track plus 2 grooves in the middle to take into account any track pins that might be proud of the sleepers. A piece of thin plasticard is fixed to the tube by the tape, cut in profile to sweep the sleepers inside and outside of the rails. I used tape as the plasticard seems to wear fairly quickly and it will need replacing before I get to the end of the line.



The scalpel gives it some sort of scale. It's about 1 1/4" diameter and 4" high. I use a miniature funnel to pour in the ballast. A fill does about a foot of track.



This was a test run, using a much stronger glue mix, a coarser ballast and a thorough misting. There is slightly more ballast to one side but this can be adjusted as the ballast runs out of the tube by tipping it. To my relief it actually stayed put once it had dried. An online video I found suggested you should apply the pva/water mix with a dropper first at the edge of the ballast and let the capiliary action work its way inwards, instead of what I did which was drop it on the ends of the sleepers and watch the ballast flow away into the six foot. Now I'll most probably find that everyone has always done it this way, except me.



The moment of truth.



Phew, it worked. With a bit of tidying up of the edges it gives out a fairly even covering, and doesn't need much brushing up between the rails or off the sleeper ends. The difference in finish between the two tracks is clear.



Of course some people might think that all this research and development is just a distraction from actually getting on and doing the ballasting, which to some extent is true. Ballasting is still a pain, even with this gadget, and you still have to be careful about not gumming up the points. While the method may not be new to a lot of people I'm hoping it'll save me some time and avoid any more disasters when I do the rest of the station approach. Thanks for the reminder, Bob.

 



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Sol
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Keep at it Mojo, practice makes perfect . ( & usually there is a lot to practice on when ballasting is mentioned).        

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Mojo thats a vast improvement using the aplicator i think you have cracked it there

cheers Brian.W

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You didnt mention anywhere and Im sure you know but adding washing up liquid to the PVA water helps it spread, I personally dont wet the ballast, just lay it then add the PVA/water/washing up liquid using a syringe that came in some kids calpol. I never find the ballast floats off

John
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mojo1
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Hi all, yes I have been using a few drops of washing up liquid added to the mix as advised but I'm surprised John you have been able to apply the pva etc direct to the ballast without wetting it first. When I've tried it in the past, even using a syringe, I usually just get either blebbing ie lumps, or rivers of muddy ballast floating away down the baseboards. I suspect then that I haven't given the mixture enough time for capilliary action to soak it into the ballast mix. I'll have to give that method another go as having to mask everything before spraying with a garden spray/atomizer is a nuisance. Thanks.



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Some very neat-looking ballast there Mojo.

Like John I too never bother to pre-wet the ballast, although I've read that many people do.
I like to pour my ballast from a simple piece of card folded into a narrow vee shape, dragging it along and leaving a trail behind it. I find that the narrow vee gives less buildup of ballast around the chairs and rail edge. Running my finger or a small brush along afterwards wipes the ballast from the sleepers and spreads it sideways just enough to extend it to the inner edge of the rail. Obviously it isn't 100% foolproof but I reckon it needs far less tidying up.
It has worked for me, anyway.

Mike

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the same as John and Mike i never wet ballast first i tend to think if you wet it you will get less capilary pull plus you can see where the pva watery mix has gone is its wet you cant really see.

cheers Brian.W

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owen69
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i do the same as Mikec,can lay ballast in long runs in minutes
with no mess.
:thumbs:thumbs:lol::lol::lol::cool:

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mojo1
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Thanks for the advice, guys. I tried again, following your collective suggestions, without wetting the ballast first, and came across the same problem ie blobbing or the ballast just running away. I suspect that I have tried to use too fine a mix, ie with some powder mixed into the coarser ballast, and this is preventing the capilliary action, even with varying amounts of washing up liquid in it. However, when it works the ballast does look good, I think, so I want to persevere with it as it is. If I had used something coarser then the liquid would have had a chance to work its way between the granules. So, for the moment, I am going to ballast and then dampen one line, and then apply the magic pva/water fix to the ballast I have already mixed up. Maybe there is no short cut to this tedious job, but it was worth looking for one. Thanks again.



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mojo

i use a spoon for the water\pva mix, first onto the centre sleepers and then i tilt the spoon onto the outside of the rail. this takes away the impact of adding the mix. i find this disperses the mix. i then leave this a few minutes and and some more if required.

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Looking desperately for something else to delay the inevitable and avoid, in the words of that famous philosopher Jeff (Gwent Rail), "getting my head down and my ar** up", and continuing with the ballasting, I looked into the problem of how to profile the ballast better and move it out of the working parts of the points. My attempts at brushing it always seem to end up with more ballast landing on the other side of the layout, and not necessarily in the right place. In my box of odds and ends of stuff that I've bought (that seemed useful at the time I bought it) I remembered I had a miniature vacuum cleaner used for cleaning keyboards etc. Although the battery driven motor is sufficient to pick up fluff easily it struggles with anything bigger. This is its strong point as far as ballasting is concerned.



As it can pick up the ballast in a very limited area so it allows you to profile the ballast shoulder and remove excess ballast from the pointwork and inside the rails. You can run it along the sleepers at an angle and it just about picks up any ballast lying on the top, but will only remove ballast between the sleepers if you hold it vertically above the track. It is made by Skytronic, who make cheap electrical goods, and cost me £3.99. I've adapted it as the bag it comes with isn't sufficient to filter out the finer dust, whilst the container allows me to pour any excess picked up back onto the track for further work. If you look at the top of the picture you can see the fresh ballast after it has been laid and fettled. Besides the nozzle it also comes with a brush which would be useful for cleaning models of dust etc.



Though not that clear a picture this is the up line and loco siding ballasted and wetted. Having found another short cut I decided to not dodge the issue any further and went for broke. With the ballast distributor and the vacuum I have done about 70 per cent of the layout today, with only the goods and parcels sidings, and the points and double slips to finish tomorrow. It is all wetted down and drying as I type this. Who knows what the morning will bring? Was the glue mix strong enough? Has the cat walked all over it whilst I was out? Hopefully, this time it has gone down okay and I can finish it off. Only the pictures will tell the truth.

 

 



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Mojo, the suspense is killing me, what happened?

Wayne



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mojo1
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Well, the cat didn't dig up the ballast or use it for any other purpose so I managed to finish the work this morning. However, having given it a thorough soaking the ballast  is taking forever to dry. I've decided to leave it to its own devices rather than try and speed the process up by using any direct source of heat. I don't remember where the ballast came from but it seems to expand when wet, then shrinks as it dries. The photos give some idea of how it is coming along but will need some tidying up. The edges are somewhat sharper than the photos show but there is a lot of loose ballast lying around. I've found using one of those foam blocks with sandpaper stuck to it  ideal for tidying up the edges and profiling the tops. Where the points have been covered with masking tape I will be using plasticine, as I usually do, to fill in the sleepers around the tie bars to avoid any chance of gluing them up. This won't show as I am going to paint the whole thing with track colour to finish it off. Any gaps in the ballast edges will be made up with neat pva and ballast dropped on. Fingers crossed.













 



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georgejacksongenius
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Its looking great to me,Mojo.I think you'll find as it dries out,it will probably lighten up in shade a touch as well.Good work,mate.
Ballasting is a real pain at the best of times!
:patheadCheers,John.B.




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Mojo it looks fine in the pic so you must be ok with it, ballast is strange stuff at the best of times, i have tried all types over the yrs funny how it always looks better on other layouts.
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mojo1
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Well, it appears I fluked the ballast and it hasn't turned out too shabby, although it needs some patching and tidying up. It looks suitably grotty but I am looking to spraying it some even shade of yukkiness before starting to highlight areas such as where locos stand etc. Any ideas for steam colouring other than straight forward mucky wash?



The station approach.



The up direction



Close up of the platforms



The lines going to who knows where. 



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Mojo1,if you think about steam locos you have coal+ash +water so
i sprinkle alittle loose coal then some grey for ash then wet it and rub it in
worth a try.
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Mojo,
       Also,wherever locos stand still,the ballast will be oilier and dirtier....ends of platforms,water cranes,coaling areas,etc.

Cheers,John.B.



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Thanks, I'll add those to the list of detailing jobs to be done.



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Having tidied up the ballast I reckoned it was time to try and frame it all by working on the retaining wall which runs along the back of the layout. I had already painted the embossed card with Sandtex stone paint. I then rubbed a pinky brown chalk all over the card, before spraying the coping and decorative stonework with acrylic paint. For the stone work I rubbed black and brown earth tone pastel sticks across the stonework using fingers, tissue and make up sponges. The advantage of this is that you can tone the stonework to either a faded or stronger dark sooty finish, depending on your taste and eyesight. I did the same with the balsa columns. Although the finish is near what I had hoped for I'm not sure whether to highlight some of the stones as the brown pastel has been lost under the sooty finish. Such colour photos as I have been able to find of that era seems to loose all the stonework under a general blue grey soot.



As you can see Bart is still standing guard, or is he waiting for another train wreck. That is one of the balsa pillars in the background.



A close up of the retaining walls behind the platforms. I have used Metcalfe stone card for the interior of the station and it blends in well.



A view in the up direction towards the tunnel.



A close up of the tunnel with Class 4 2-6-0 hauling empty bolsters. The dmu I picked up secondhand but it needs some TLC.



4F acting as station pilot.



A more general view of the station area. I have used a number of photos to try and get some match with the colours and the general clutter that would have been found in the end of steam era so I look forward to getting into more detailing. As an aside does anyone know of an online source of drawings of industrial buildings, complete with measurements? I have down loaded photos from the CG textures site and would like to scale them for possible photo editing and printing onto card in order to make some 2 dimensional backdrops. Although I have photos it is more difficult to scale buildings made of stone as I'm not sure what the stone dimensions are. Given this is based on the West Riding then stone would predominate. Any ideas would be gratefully recieved.



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Mojo1,those walls look fine,i would have them on my set any day,
the ballast is fixed you are doing ok.
sorry i can`t help with the building query.

:pathead:lol::lol::lol::cool:

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Looks fine to me, Mojo. Those steps down through the platforms are a nice feature.

Mike

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Marty
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Mojo,
The stacker was a masterpiece but originally I was ambivalent about the layout plan, it is my personal preference and I understand that your space requirements have dictated what you have been able to do, but the lots of track roundy-roundy usually just doesn't appeal to me.

The stacker and layout intro story should have given me the heads up!!!
You have a "serious" plan and know where you are heading and... now that you have ballast and that wonderful retaining wall is in place I can see where it is you are going, the potential for a great bit of modelling and operating is clear.

As far as the building sizes go, can you scale off windows or doors?
If you print off what you have and then compare them all at once you should be able to determine by eye where the buildings should be in relation to each other.
That is, the bigger buildings in the foreground and progressively smaller as you go back to give a feeling of perspective.
Hope I'm not teaching you to suck eggs... just my thoughts.
Lay on McDuff, you are doing great.



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Thanks guys, and to you Marty for the suggestion re measuring from doors and windows. To be honest, I had only been thinking in terms of measuring brick courses, but presumably windows and doors are of fairly standard dimensions world wide so I will give the draft printing a go to see what results I get, and scale up or down accordingly. Yesterday, rummaging through my boxes of things stored for the future, which said future has now suddenly and mysteriously arrived, I found some sheets of Howards Scenics embossed brick paper which was figured in, I think, an MRJ many moons ago. Once I have decided on the photo scales etc I am going to attempt to print the photographs directly onto the paper from the computer to see if the relief in the brick embossing stands out any better than using brick paper or plastic card, the latter I've not had much success with over the years. Given the price of this material now it's not the sort of thing you can experiment with too much but the possibility of using a photo editing programme to alter the picture and add/subtract weathering, is very tempting. At least this will be legitimate research, and not just another way now of avoiding doing the ballasting. which is now finished. I suspect it will work better for buildings nearer the viewer, whilst I may use Superquick or adapted Metcalfe buildings for the distant views. We'll see. For the immediate future I think I will start on the signalling, relay boxes and trunking, so that the trains have a reason to stop, and go by order, rather than by mysterious short-circuits.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 17th, 2008 04:37 am
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Mojo1

I really like your retaining wall, which provides a super backdrop to this area of the layout. I assume you just bent plastic card around the curved areas?

As far as scaling buildings, I think you have already hit upon the easiest method and that is to count bricks/stones for width and courses for height. It may not be completetly accurate, but it will look alright.

Bob(K)



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 Posted: Fri Oct 17th, 2008 06:39 am
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I've just read through this whole posting and although like Marty I'm not a fan of multiple track layouts (being more into the scenic countryside aspect) I think you've done a great job on everything and I really admire your persistence with the ballasting - you've obviously got your Mojo working!!!
Ken.



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Its all looking good.That retaining wall is very impressive...I like the way you've made it look so realistic.It really does look like a huge stone wall.....brilliant paint effects.

Cheers,John.B.



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Bob (K), I presume by curves you mean the bit just before the tunnel? I tried bending the foamboard after carving it, and before laminating it with cardboard, in order to fit the last section, but the stresses bending the foamboard caused in the card face made it look like a case of severe subsidence and cracking in the stonework had taken place, leading to the indefinite closure of Westgate station by the civil engineer. Therefore, the end panel had to be straight, and has just been slightly tweaked to fit up against the tunnel mouth. I would have preferred a curve to hem the railway in further, as was my intention, but I couldn't work a way around it. However, by the time I've put in more detail then it won't notice as much. The other curves on the layout are not scenically visible as I sacrificed the amount of layout on view in order to hide the very unprototypical curves. Because I wanted a mix of watching the trains go by through an urban setting, in a relatively small room space for a main line, and also some shunting potential, then multi track in the round was my preferred option. Being a city boy, (despite my now living in some of the most beautiful countryside in England), modelling a rural scene has never really interested me, but also partly because to do it properly, like some people have demonstrated on the forum, I know takes a talent and an artistic eye that I could only aspire to.



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 Posted: Sun Oct 19th, 2008 08:22 am
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Great work mojo. I actually find ballasting fairly therapeutic but given the amount you have there, maybe I might just have changed my mind.

My layout is very crudely based around Exeter St Davids with 7 running roads through the station. I colour matched the gravel with GWR practice (brown and buff) for the main lines outside the station but when I actually went to ExStD, and after looking at photos, I noticed that the station ballast was totally grey/mucky throughout, brought about I suspect by age and use. In fact it was almost not ballast but just dirt and grit, erego I had to change my ballast in the major use areas from brown to grey - the transition area is not easy. Precision Paints do some excellent colours e.g sleeper grime, track dirt etc which you could use at the ends of the platforms where the loco's came to rest.

Incidentally you have very good barrow crossings, how did you make them?

Les



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 Posted: Sun Oct 19th, 2008 03:12 pm
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Hi Les, you must be the only person not driven to therapy by ballasting! Trying to colour match from photos and videos/dvds is difficult, and my first hand memory of steam really ended around '67 when the Southern stopped using it from London where I grew up. Like you say the ballast just looks like fine dust in station areas. I did wonder whether I should fill in the areas between the tracks as most pictures I have show the ground level up to the sleepers tops within station areas. On the other hand I have photos of clearly defined ballast on running lines through stations. I plumped for the latter as I wanted to include detailing such as point motors, relay cabinets, trunking etc, as well as ground signals, some of which I've just installed and wired up after scratchbuilding a bunch. However, whether I've got them in the right place is open to question. The signals are next but even for a relatively short piece of modelled track area it's amazing how many signals you need to even begin to follow prototype practise. Re the barrow crossing I just cut thin strips of balsa to sleeper scale width, but made them longer as a feature, as my intention was to emulate my standing on the end of King's Cross' platforms, watching the trains come and go. I painted them with Tamiya acrylic bronze toned down with some mucky thinners, then went over them with a sanding block to distress the timber. I'll check out your suggestion re the sleeper grime and track dirt paints as I'm trying to come to terms with my airbrush and that would be a good place to start.

Cheers.



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 Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 04:23 am
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Les
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Thanks Mojo. Balsa is very difficult to get here in Spain but I'll try and source some now and have a go.

Cheers,

Les



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 Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 01:51 pm
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mojo1
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I've been doing some experimenting with lit ground signals as this is one of the layout design elements of the railway as I remember them, around Kings Cross, especially on late winter afternoons, that I wanted to reproduce. Not wanting to spend any more than I had to I sourced some red LEDs, punched out some plasticard discs and ruined my eyesight trying to put them together on balsa bases. They don't work mechanically, but do light up. They use 12v dc with resistors. In fact the most difficult thing I found was trying to draw a decent red line across the disc. With hindsight I would reccomend fine red tape as used by the car and aero modellers. It gives a sharp edge and doesn't fade. At a distant the signals don't look too bad, but don't expect any close ups.



The basic signal. Disc plus led plus sticky tape to stop the bare wires touching.



Signals guarding the parcels sidings and outlets. I usually bed down all my signals, and anything else around the track likely to get knocked, in plasticine as things are less likely to get damaged.



A bit more of a face on shot. The point levers are Springside, although the points are all motorised. At some point I will get round to doing some ground texturing, once the signals and other ground details are installed eg trunking etc.



A shot taken in the up direction with the ground signal mounted alongside the advanced starter. The ground signal doesn't stand out against the red light of the main signal but it is lit. The signal is an modified Eckon two aspect, also with LEDs. The ground signal is wired in parallel with the red light. One thing I have found difficult to overcome is how fragile the single strand connecting wire for LEDs is. You need something fine and unobtrusive which doesn't show on the signal, and will go down the inside of the post, but trying to strip the insulation off without breaking the wire is a pain. I forgot to put the resistor in on my first wiring up, having tested it with one attached. It's amazing how a LED flares up when you put 12v dc unrestrained through it. I had to remould the signal hood where it had melted.



A bit closer shot but unfortunately the ground signal still doesn't stand out. I may try it with minicam sometime to see what the driver would see. The ground signals in the background also work although only a contortionist or minicam will actually get the benefit of them.



A shot in the dark. The ground signal is lit, honest! I'm not sure about the positioning of ground signals, despite spending ages looking at track and signal plans. As the trackwork is supposed to be bi-directional, and signalled accordingly, then I hope any mistakes won't be too obvious, as I understand some companies signalled for every possibile move whilst others provided as few as possible.



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Signals look good to me but I'm no expert. If your going for the looks right camps vote you've got mine !

John
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Mojo1 try useing varnished or waxed wire it is just a single strand
the same type used in electric motors,i just strip mine out of an old
jig saw,not the armature the magnet winding. no prob with insulation
and it can touch no shorting.

:thumbs:thumbs:lol::lol::lol::cool:

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87 101
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Nice looking ground signals. Might have a go at making some of those. Did you use a paperpunch to punch out the plasticard?

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 Posted: Mon Oct 20th, 2008 06:40 pm
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MikeC
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Nice work, Mojo! I DO like lit signals.

Mike

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Given how complicated it can be to signal your layout "properly" going for putting them where they look right is a pretty good plan, and you have achieved that with ease Mojo!

I have never seen a colour light with a semaphore dummy on the same post like that - have you got pictures or memories of one?  This is not in any way a criticism either, just genuinely interested to know if such a situation existed?

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 Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 02:14 pm
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mojo1
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Thanks for the tip, Owen, obvious now you've pointed it out. Should make the other 13 signals easier to build now! Yes, Dave, I used a bog standard paper punch for the plasticard. If you intend to draw the red line on, rather than use tape, then I suggest you get the plasticard, punch the two holes out (presuming you're working to a straight edge) then draw the red line onto the card, bisecting these two holes. (Believe you me, it's a lot better than my original method ie struggling to draw a line on each disc individually. I used a CD marker pen for the line, and also to simulate the green lens, depending on what signal type you were making.) You then move the punch along and punch out ready made holes, complete with lines. I then just drilled out a hole in the disc for the red light, used super glue to fix it to a red LED then painted the whole thing black. I found I had to give the LED a second coat as any leaking red light shows up. With hindsight I would have given the discs a spray of varnish prior to punching them out as the ink tends to smudge, meaning you end up having to redraw them. Re prototypes Chris, I don't have your hands on knowledge so have gleaned what little I know from books, or sometimes I build the fiction rather than the fact into the model, as you may have gathered from my one and only contribution to this forum re signalling. However, this is one of the photos I used for inspiration as it is how I remember Kings Cross, looking towards the tunnels, with red lights showing. The disc signals appear to be electrically operated, judging by other photos showing the backs. The picture was taken in 1971, a bit past my timescale of the mid to late 60's but I've presumed this was available earlier to signal difficult locations. Re the prototype, I figure they placed them in this way because of the cramped and overcrowded ground space between the tracks, although there is one visible on the ground on the exteme right of the picture. I should imagine it would also have been easier for the drivers to sight them. I don't think there was any mechanical signalling remaining in the station area by then. Having not given myself sufficient prototypical space between the running tracks on the model it seemed a better solution than jamming the ground signals into the ballast. Also it made the wiring up easier, although they are cosmetic rather than functioning. There are other photos but I wouldn't want to run the risk of copyright infringements by posting them. Given your insider knowlege, maybe we should commission you to do signalling diagrams for our layouts. Could be a nice earner, given how difficult it is to get the right advice.




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Christrerise
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That's fascinating thanks Mojo - I have never seen colour lights and those dummies on the same signal like that!  As you say they are probably electrically operated.  You can often have semaphore ground signals in colour light areas but it is very unusual to get them on the same post.

I am not a signal expert in the techincal sense - I  have no idea how they work etc, but I had to know how to read signalling diagrams and plans as part of my former job when evaluating new track layouts, timetables etc. and what it would mean to our drivers.

I am always happy to help but it is usually very difficult to signal a model layout "properly" as distances are usually compressed and you nearly always have to compromise.

I did have a customer who told me he was "expert" and brought in pictures of his layout.  He had signalled it like you would a road network, with red and green lights at every single set of points in both directions, sometimes with as many as five or six signals in the space of about 2 coach lengths!

Just getting them to look right is the best solution and you have made that look easy in your pictures!

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 Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 04:15 pm
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Christrerise
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Having now just sat and studied that Kings Cross picture a further mystery reveals itself to me!

I notice that on the signals to the right they have a C and D but this is to aid driver identification of which signal refers to which line.  I am at a loss as to what the two yellow numerals below on the right hand side are.  They would normally be speed restriction signs, but 8 over 15C makes no sense to me.  Does anybody know what these could refer to? 

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 Posted: Tue Oct 21st, 2008 05:35 pm
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mojo1
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Chris, I cropped the photo I posted as it is from a book and I didn't want to take too many liberties with copyright. However, in the original there is also a yellow 8 sign to the right of the picture so it must be a speed indicator as it is standing between two tracks. Would 18C mean that was the permitted speed on track C? Another photo from another book shows a similar yellow 18A sign on its own alongside the track, with a signal in the foreground indicating track/route A, as well as another 8 sign, but from the back, and that one clearly a speed indicator as it is standing alone as well. By 1981, the next photo I have of the signalling at Kings Cross shows the ground discs replaced on the posts by the 3 aspect ground signals you would expect to see everywhere nowadays. Maybe the 8 over the 18C sign in the first photo is just the way they line up in the photograph. At least when I remember to put in my speed restriction signs I'd better make sure about the sighting for the driver.



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 Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 03:55 am
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mojo1
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Just a further thought re the speed signs. If they are mounted on the same post then would it be like where ground signals are mounted one on top of each other to indicate route setting? In this case the highest placed one would indicate the speed for the left turnout etc. Given the restricted throat area and the number of single and double slips, turnouts and crossovers in such a small space then maybe this was another driver aid, given the need for locos to cross over the throat to get to the servicing facilities. Looking at the original photo under a magnifying glass it does look as if they are on the same post.



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rjr
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Knowing nothing about these discs I presume in real life they rotate ? What then is the significance of the red line as I assume it would appear horizontal and not horizontal.

John
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owen69
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Rjr, the discs dont rotate the light behind them does  the changes.
:hmm;-):lol::cool:

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Christrerise
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The meaning of the shunt signal, or dummy as they are often referred to by railwaymen, is that the driver may proceed at caution and be prepared to stop short of any obstruction.  Normally this means not much more than 10 - 15 mph.

If the route is totally clear then the main signal would be pulled off instead.  An example of this would be a train routed into a platform where another train is already standing, or a loco being routed onto a line where there is already stock stabled etc.

The disc does usually move and I have scanned a page from the Railway Group Standards below to show the meanings: -



I am not sure about the speed signs - usually they would be in multiples of 5mph so to see 8 or 18 is very strange?

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 Posted: Wed Oct 22nd, 2008 05:56 pm
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owen69
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well thats me blew out of the water,i always thought the light changed colour.

:thud:oops::lol::lol::lol::cool:

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Christrerise
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Sorry Owen!  You are right that the light changes colour, it just does it by the disk moving in front of it :twisted:

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Thanks Chris, I can see why mojo has modelled tham static as it would be quite a challenge to get them to rotate. Im guessing on the real ones the red and green lights would both be on but depending on the orientation of the disc you would see the relevant light.

In a yard situation would these be used to indicate if points were set right to cross? and if so would they follow signal convention ie to the left of the track they were indicating ?

John
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 Posted: Thu Oct 23rd, 2008 04:39 pm
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mojo1
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Just been watching a 60's steam dvd showing Waterloo Station in 1967. They also had discs mounted up alongside colour lights but I also saw a speed sign of 7. Is the multiple of 5 a recent development. Certainly the Eckon signs are multiples of 5. And could a steam or diesel loco speedo indicate the difference between such low numbers?



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Sol
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RJR, I reckon there is only one light but the moving disc has a red & green lense so depending on the position of the disc, what lense is in front of the light  determines the colour - just like a convential semaphore signal.

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Christrerise
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Sol is right, there is just the one light behind the coloured lens.

Not sure about speed limit increments - they were always in 5mph steps while I was on the railway but I do not know the historical situation.  Certainly on modern trains the speedo would be accurate enough at higher speeds but anything below 10mph is always suspect.  That is why at carriage wash machines there is often a digital sign displaying the speed to the driver so that he can maintain the correct speed for the wash machine rather than relying on his speedo.

Few steam engines even had a speedo so it would be very strange to have a speed as exact as 7 or 8 mph!  The plot thickens!

RJR, these shunt signals would be to the left of the line to which they applied usually, just like a normal signal.  In a yard they would probably not be used at all and the points would be hand worked, but if they were in the yard then they could never be passed unless they were off.  Routes would normally be indicated by either a stencil indicator above the signal, or the signals would be mounted on above the other, with the highest signal referring to the left most route, then each signal below referring to the next route across.

This is best illustrated on the picture: -



In the case of a yard a "Dummy Distant" would be used, which is similar to the above but yellow instead of red.  This is unusual in that the signal can be passed at danger, provided the train is not travelling over the route the signal applies to.  This is quite difficult to explain so if I post the pictures below this should make more sense!



Positioning at the yard throat: -



Sorry to hi-jack the thread Mojo!  Hope this makes sense RJR - the subject is very complicated and I have massively simplified it but generally this should cover most situations...

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Thanks to Mojo for letting us hijack his thread (did we give him a choice) and a big thanks Chris for taking the time to post all the pics and explanations. One last question everything so far relates to signals before a diverging point, I get the stack of disc which indicate which to the driver which route is set. Is there a corresponding "dummy" signal for coming the other way. In other words in fiure 3.6 if you are coming back towards the points on line 1 and they are set to take line 2 do you get a stop signal.

John
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Christrerise
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Yes John, that would be correct!

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I don't see this as a hijack, it's all about getting the correct info, whatever thread you're on. Thanks for the input, Chris. I will look out for more anomalies. There's a whole lot of stuff you see in pictures and dvds of the steam era, but trying to find out what they are/their purpose is sometimes impossible. Does give you a lot of leeway when you build your model if no one is available, with the knowledge, to put you right though.



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rjr
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Thanks Chris, so I guess in a "compressed" model environment you could end up with a lot of signals in a small space, hence your comment that mojo had got the look right !

John
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Christrerise
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Dead right John!  Look forward to more anomolies Mojo - I am hoping to see the guy that trained me when I joined the railway in 1987.  He was about to retire and had a story to explain every rule in the rule book and why it was there so hopefully he will be able to shed some light on these signs. 

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It may well pay to make a signalling thread that a lot of this info could go into so in the future members could use it as a referance.

cheers Brian

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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 06:47 am
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Brian

I was going to suggest the same thing. I have learned more about signalling in these few pages than I have ever been able to pick up from my books. The subject is fascinating and Mojo should be congratulated for having a go in the first place.

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If a mod or even a Super Mod wants to copy the signalling bit into a new thread and future questions can go into that and I can do my best to answer them:roll:

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Guys

Can I just say that I am at last starting to understand Signals/signaling, from reading the last couple of pages, a BIG thanks to Chris and Sol for explaining and the drawings, makes it easier to follow, I also agree with all that Mojo has really made a good start, and although I don't know anything about signals, his look right.

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Having enjoyed a pleasant diversion regarding prototype signalling I then realised I couldn't decide what to do next. Usually, I leave the signals until last as I inevitably damage them while trying to construct the rest of the layout. It then occurred to me that I could work on the train shed as a self contained unit, which would then finish off that corner of the layout. However, the roof is very prominent from an operator's point of view so took more detailing than I had anticiapated. The whole roof is hinged at the far end so it lifts up to allow access to the station area.



This is the front view. I have used gold foil laminated corrugated cardboard to emulate the panelling of Bradford Exchange station before it was demolished. I presume it was steel sheeting or could it have been asbestos? The corrugations scale out at about a foot between ridges but look okay for the industrial type building I was aiming for. I got 15 sheets from a pound stretcher shop for, you guessed it, a pound. It is due for some serious weathering when I have time to get the airbrush out again, but the foil gives a very good semblance of a metal finish. The ridges I did with silver foil corrugated cardboard. It doesn't show so well in the pictures. I put in safety posts then had to put in the rails as well which are a mixture of brass wire and nickel silver wire. Not quite as bad as ballasting but soldering wire to posts is up there with jobs not to do when in a bad fettle.



This gives a better ideal of the length of the  train shed. The original premise is that the lines go straight on, rather than taking a sharp curve to the left of the layout and back onto the stacker, hence the length of the roof.



This shows the roof in more detail. Again it needs some weathering especially to typify a West Riding day, usually wet and overcast. I downloaded some industrial windows from the CG textures site, enlarged them and printed them onto A4 sheets of sticky back paper. They are much too blue but will be dulled up with the air brush. I tried putting perspex over them but unfortunately they catch the overhead room light, making it look constantly like high noon. The walkways are constructed of the same corrugated paper which give a very good semblance of steps. The posts are industrial type stapes, cut in half and straightened and buried into the roof. Despite their being steel they seem to take solder okay. Because only one side of the roof is visible from any normal angle then I only had to put in such details as can be seen from the operating side. The walkways that run the full length along the top of the wall and just below the ridged vents I made from plastic parcel tape which makes a very nice chequer plate walkway. The only problem is fixing it to the radiator to straighten it out before using it. The actual roof is the same corrugated cardboard but turned over, stuck to the foam board roof and lightly rubbed over with pastel chalks. It picks up the lines well and gives a distinct finish to the roof, while not being too uniform. The main wall is scribed cardboard, again run over with pastel chalks. The white foamboard visible is where the station buildings will be going, with a concourse to the front left.



I put grain of wheat bulbs under the roof and run them in a combination of series and parallel to use a 15v ac source to prevent them burning out. You can just see the end of the platform where the track takes a 90 degree turn. This won't be so readily visible once the station furniture and platform canopies have been installed. One other job is to put a dimmer switch in the main light circuit to turn down the daylight bulb I use for general illumination.



This is the view more generally available from the operating position. Despite this being quite a substantial building I doubt it cost me more than £4 in materials. Now to populate the platforms.



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georgejacksongenius
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That's a fantastic job on the roof,and the sheeting on the end looks right.Great job on the lights too.For a measly £4......what a bargain!!!
   You can be well chuffed with that!:thumbs

Cheers,John.B.



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What a great shed mojo! Beautiful weathering, as well.

One tiny piece of advice, if I may.  It isn't a good idea to put lamps or LEDs in series to achieve voltage ballasting, especially in such a beautiful and large model.  When/if one ends its life, the circuit becomes open and all of them go out.  You will have no idea which one is dead and it is a devil of a job to find it/them.

Much better to put a ballast resisitor on each light.  It's a bit of a pain at the time, but a good investment.  Cheers.  Max



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Christrerise wrote: If a mod or even a Super Mod wants to copy the signalling bit into a new thread and future questions can go into that and I can do my best to answer them:roll:
 Done.


 Mojo that shed is terrific!


 Mike

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That's a great train shed Mojo and a really good way of disguising the curve.

Thanks Mike as well.

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Better and better, going to put a couple of workmen on one of those roof walkways Mojo?
It would help create the impression of scale.



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Thanks guys. I like the suggestion about placing figures to give some scale, Marty, so I'll look out for some suitable personnel to put on the roof. Max, I've put 6 pairs (in series) of grain of wheat bulbs in parallel across the 16v ac, giving 8v to each bulb? If a bulb goes then only it and its partner should fail, making fault finding easier. According to my ammeter the bulbs draw 150mv current each so shouldn't make too much of a demand on the power supply. At least that's the theory.

As an aside the infamous stacker will be making its public appearance in Model Rail magazine, to be published in December. It appears they are showing how to build it so I hope the instructions I supplied to them made sense. I don't think they've attempted to do one themselves, but at least they appear to have spelt my surname correctly!



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sounds like you've thought about it, then. 



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A great piece of work Mojo and avery innovative way of disguising the bend.:thumbs

We have probably discussed it before Mojo so forgive me, but have you a link to the CG textures site?.

Les



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Mojo,
       Congratulations on getting into Model Rail.....Its getting hard to pick up a magazine these days without one of our lot in it!!!
Great stuff!:mrgreen::thumbs

Cheers,John.B.



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 Posted: Fri Nov 7th, 2008 03:39 pm
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Is this what you want Les?

http://www.cgtextures.com/

It's out of the Forum Contents Index by the way.



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Model rail arrived today and I noticed the stacker is due in next months edition. Well done.;-)

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87 101 wrote: Model rail arrived today and I noticed the stacker is due in next months edition. Well done.;-)

 

I noticed that too.. YMR member in the press !!

 

 

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Good on you, mojo

Mike

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Brilliant idea for your corner Mojo, and what a shed you have built, Like all above I really like the detailing of the hand rail, it finishes it off well and when you find some suitable people to go on it, that will only help, can you help a little regarding the corrugated paper that you have used, because it looks a very good choice.

:doublethumbfor making the next issue of MR, will this mean that we will have a honours board on the forum, for all of our stars., because we are just one big family really.

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 Posted: Sun Nov 9th, 2008 09:24 am
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Thank you, guys. Looks like I'll get my 15 minutes of fame but I don't know whether they pay me for the privilege! Re the laminated corrugated paper, Alan, I got it from a shop in the North East called the Yorkshire Trading Company. It doesn't look like they are a national concern, but are a step up from Poundstretchers, who also sell corrugated paper, albeit not laminated. YTC sell all sorts of useful stuff that can be adapted to hobbies, including our own, and very cheaply. It may be that you would have an equivalent in your part of the world that would source the same material.



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Here's a link to discount stores throughout the UK in case anyone wants to go looking. There might be one right near you that you didn't know about. I have also stuck this link in the Equipment & Materials Index.

http://www.yell.com/find/DoFindLocations/lo/uk/Discount-Stores



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Waiting on the delivery of some acrylic paints in order to start weathering the train shed I thought I'd have a go at the Peco subway steps. As supplied they do not resemble subway entrances as I remember them, being too modern in appearance. I decided to do away with the rails and hand rails as supplied, and also built up the walls around the wells with balsa and covered them with Metcalfe granite sett card. The railings are from Slaters while the posters are scanned from an insert from Model Rail, and printed out on my favourite fall back, sticky back paper A4 labels. This makes it much easier to attach them to plasticard than messing up paper print outs with glue. You then glue the plasticard to the railings.



Although the health and safety people have been out and about painting the barrow crossing edges white and putting red and white chequer restricted clearance signs on the ends of the subway girders this view does show some liberties have been taken regarding the space between the edge of the subway structure and the platform edge. It scales out at about 7 foot each side of the subway on the DOWN platform, and about 6 foot on the UP platform. Obviously I would need some sort of barriers in place at the sides but can't recall ever seeing anything in steam era photos that would fit the bill. And this would also restrict the space for the waiting passengers. Any ideas? On the other hand, from a platform level view the narrowness is not so apparent so I might let this one go. The NE tangerine station signs were printed out in Word and mounted on "turned" cocktail sticks. Well, I carved out a sort of NE finial with a scalpel. The ones above the steps read WAY OUT and platforms 1&2/3&4.



The sign on the left is for holidays in Skegness, the one on the right is extolling the virtues of the newly electrified West Coast main line, while the large one on the back is the Blue Pullman service, fictitiously running from Bradford Westgate as a sop for the closures of Bradford Exchange and Bradford Forster Square.



The other subway on the UP platform mirrors the subway on the DOWN platform. 



Maybe a clearer view of the posters.  Because a lot of the platform is hidden under the train shed roof and foreshortened then I wanted to use what space and opportunity I had to show some posters. However, it occurs to me that the platforms up to the subway steps would be covered on the prototype, which would restrict the view even more. Although I wanted to super detail a small bit of urban railway I'm worried about it getting too cluttered. I still have to add the passengers, seats, luggage, barrows and all the other paraphenalia you find on platforms. I'm going to have to think about this one.



The east end of the station. As you can see there is not a lot of platform left to place the population. Not a lot of population either. ASLEF must be out on strike.



The east end of the layout. Not much movement here since the building of the station, though I have started to place some of the signalling and relay cabinets. Begs the question just how much detail do you put in before it is over egged.



Final shot. The point motors are Springside castings.



To add to the "what's on my workbench" this is the good old Ikea cabinet that has been battered and adapted to fit whatever space I've had for modelling. Everything else gets fixed on it as well. Fluorescent angle poise magnifier light courtesy of Maplins where I seem to buy most of my tools and electrical equipment these days. The photos for inspiration are of Dewsbury Midland and Gas Works, an O Gauge layout featured a while ago in Model Railway Journal. One day, one day.



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That platform subway is  really good mojo and something that you don't see very often. Most effective. Definitely worth a place in the Forum Index.



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i like this, your question about how much detail you add before it gets clutted, my thoughts on this are..... i think each scene\section of a layout should have smaller scenes within it. if you are standing on a train in an urban area and looking out the window you cannot register every detail even though the train is going slow. an urban landscape is varied and clutted with bits and bobs all over the place. go for it, put the detail in and then move bits you are not happy with.

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That shot with the DMU shows what a busy station you have built. It looks better and better as you add all these little items of detail. Your under pass looks very effective.

I like the retaining wall too. What colours did you use to achieve the dirty brown brick look?

Bob(K)



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You are starting to get a very urban feel to it i think its fair to say urban railway/station areas are far more cluttered than country/rural ones.

cheers Brian

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Looks great. I like those stairwells. As for clutter, the photo you posted on page 4 [with the unusual signalling] has plenty and it looks fine.

edit - this one:


Mike

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I reconise that photograph it looks like ranaliegh yard at Kings cross The place where the photo was taken with  is a the end of the platform on the left hand side of the station which is a long one and is where as kids we used to go to see all the locos especially Deltics There were green and blue ones then around 1970.

There were class 31 and type 47 Brush 4`s as we knew them on the kings cross line then But Type 45 Peaks were not on the kings cross line they were only on the St Pancras midland railway which went through ST Albans my home town then.

cheers Brian

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That's a very neat bit of modelling that you have made on those subways stairs, as for extra detailing and bit and bobs, a few trolleys and luggage bags etc at the back of each would really set the scene. and your workbench is a lot More tidy than mine.

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Really like the subway, has given me some ideas for improving mine ! Thanks

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Thanks, Bob. I take your point Matt about the scenes you see from a train, or even observing a line from a fixed point. I'll just make sure I don't stick too much down so I do have the option of moving stuff around to get a balance. Bob K, I  used Inscribe Earthtone pastels brushed over yellow painted scribed card with fingers, tissue and  make up pads to represent the sooted sandstone blocks. I went from black through brown and gold to yellow to vary the shades, although the sooty black tends to dominate-the photo in fact gives it a brown tinge. I had considered fixing the finish with matt varnish, but by accident found that I could vary the shades by gently rubbing over with tissue paper. I'll keep on cluttering, Brian, and you're right, Mike, about the location. (Un)fortunately I am old enough to  remember standing there in the 50's when it was still all steam. Every time I go down to London and the train pulls out of those tunnels I have to resist the urge to go to the carriage window to see what locos are on shed-of course now the yard is a car park. As for the tidy workbench, Alan, you got the airbrushed version-we'd just done the cleaning. One day I'll maybe post a more true to life version.



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Looking good Mojo as for the details go for it! For me it's the small details that realy make a good layout. Brian the pic is the yard outside Kings Cross station although the ranaliegh yard you refer to I think is just outside Paddington.;-)

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Superb modelling Mojo - so lifelike.:thumbs

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Thanks, Les. I don't know about you but sometimes I get so bound up in what I'm doing eg the train shed, subway etc that it takes some time before it eventually occurrs to me that I haven't run any trains recently. Just a quickie to prove that ASLEF isn't out on this particular Sunday though they are running their trains very quietly to avoid waking the sleepers in. Sorry about the quality but unless Santa puts a digicam in my stocking this Christmas then I have to keep on using the video option on my stills camera. Not ideal but at least the movement gives a better scale to the station.



 



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It does indeed mojo, and very nice it is too.



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Just caught up on this thread and boy what work you have done, love the hidden corner the subway and platform. You have been busy and i love that trail of wagons in your video.

Well done mate :thumbs.

Oh by the way nothing wrong with the video in my eye's.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 07:28 am
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mojo1 wrote: Thanks, Les. I don't know about you but sometimes I get so bound up in what I'm doing  


Too right I do Mojo but it's rarely the layout. At least you are concentrating on one area in order to finish it. I haven't run trains for weeks now (not even the rare goody I brought back from KMRC in October) and I seem to be flitting from one project to another e.g. loco depot, scenic hill, tunnel entrance, turntable, etc etc etc. all of which are taking that much longer to finish.

I wish I had your sense of direction and tenacity.

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 A nice 'little' station you have there Mojo:doublethumb



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Les, the only way I can keep it organised is to write down a list of "jobs" and try and keep to them, once I've sorted out the order in my head. As I see it I have to finish either something that is self contained eg the station, or areas on the far side that mean me reaching over the layout in order to access it, otherwise I damage everything at the front of the layout. At the moment I am gradually building up the weathering on the station which has to be done before the platforms can be detailed/populated etc. I think most modellers move from one thing to another as they go along, as this is one of the appeals of the hobby. And if you ever do get it finished then it's the Rector's axe and start again.



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And a Happy New Year from the wilds of Northumberland.



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owen69
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Mojo what a brill way to send christmas greetings .

:cheers:Happy:Happy:lol::lol::cool:

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Loved it Mojo, many thanks.



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Thanks Mojo & the same to you.

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Nice one mojo! All the best to you too.

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A lovely christmas greeting mojo thankyou very much

cheers Brian

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Thoughtful, novel and much appreciated.

Many thanks Mojo and the same sentiment returned to you and yours.

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looking good Mojo
Merry christmas to everyone



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Christmas, New Year, up and down the GNER to London and back, hasn't left much space for modelling or logging on to the forum, although I suspect I have more time than a lot of people. Finding myself with a relatively clear week ahead I decided to crack on and finish the weathering of the station shed, fit the canopies and lights, and also the barrow crossing lights. The following are in no particular order:



A sort of night time shot, showing the lights under the new canopies.



More of the same.



And again.




Crossing details. Excuse the lumps of crud supporting the little people-their final resting place has not been decided. Lamps courtesy of Ekkon.



Three items that actually do what they say on the tin. The Peak will pull anything, the Dapol cleaner, especially with the vacuum element saving me having to retrieve fine detail from the small vacuum I've tried to use in the past, is magic, while the CMX cleaner, along with Isopropyl alcohol inside it, cleans everything.

 



Closer shot of the platform canopies. They are made of a mixture of card, balsa, Plaststruct, sticky back labels and perspex. The glazing bars are made from photos of industrial windows printed to scale on sticky back paper A4 labels and then the glass in the printed photos is cut out with a scalpel (new blade) before sticking down to the perspex. Another advantage is that as you pull of the sticky label to put on the perspex then the waxed backing paper is left behind as a copy of the glazing bars, and ready for further use. As the glazing bars in the photos were already a sort of NE blue I didn't have to try to paint them. Lights are from LEDs with bits of Knightwing flanges for light shades. Maybe the following pictures makes the glazing bar bit more intelligible:



This shows the photos copied onto the A4 label. The blue sky bits are to be removed. I made the mistake of going for a more intricate glazing than necessary with the centre skylights. Once started I had to finish.

 

This shows the backing paper (white) which can be used for further window glazing.



The bars stuck to the perspex prior to being fitted to the canopy roofs. As you can see they have already been weathered in the photo. They seem to adhere to the perspex fine as long as you press them down well with the handle of the scalpel. Having saved them in Word I should be able to resize them, bigger or smaller, to make up some of the windows as can be seen on the backdrop in the top right hand corner of the following photo. I've never seen a sky reflected off glass that blue in the West Riding of Yorkshire.




This shows the weathering of the shed and the canopies in a daylight shot.



The crossing at night time. Seems day and night mean nothing to our intrepid workers. Signs on the crossing are taken from photos and scanned and reduced to size.



The eastern approaches at dusk. Haven't decided what to do with the open baseboard to the left, other than some non descript railway buildings. May end up going for the scenic wasteland look. Signals still have to be built and installed as well as making up and painting a population to fill those platforms, as well as benches, trolleys etc. Once this corner is complete then it'll be time to move on to some sort of backscene above the retaining walls to frame the layout more.

The stacker continues to trundle on, disgorging trains when and where I want them. I did manage to lay the last remnant of my track supply on the lowest level, making ten shelves in total. Overkill I know, but then hopefully there's still a lot of birthdays and Christmases to come yet.

Cheers.





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Feast or famine time. I tried taking some "night time shots" merely using the light from the crossing lamps and station lights. One day I'll learn how to tone down that yellow cast.










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good pics Mojo,the canopies look fine and i like the way you have lit them all up
plenty of detail in there too.

:doublethumb:lol::lol::lol::lol::cool:

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Yep.  Very impressive, mojo



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Mojo,
       That station is really looking the business,and the night-time shots look great too.Top job.

Cheers,John.B.



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Mojo

The station area is really looking very good indeed you have certainly captured the urban feel with it well done

cheers Brian

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Very, very impressive.
Gotta get me some of them sticky labels!

Mike

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Nicely done Mojo, you must be very pleased so far, it looks great from my end.

Thanks too for spending the time taking and posting the photos... we do love photos!!!



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Looking good Mojo, everything is blending in nicely, giving that steam era grimey look. the lighting is very good too.

Bob(K)



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Hmm, some catching up to do after a number of  catastrophic episodes over the last six months, the least of which was the computer crashing terminally, and taking the back up hard drive with it, with photos, links etc. We still can't work out how it happened but now it's been replaced and I'm able to get back on line again. Work has continued on Bradford Westgate and the stacker still grinds up and down so photos/vids will be coming soon to a screen near you, when I've worked my way through the backlog of posts on the forum. Seems everyone has kept busy in my absence.

Cheers



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Wondered where you had gone I had no internet for two weeks and that was bad enough! Looking forward to seeing some progress updates. ;-)

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Welcome back Mojo we were wondering where you had got to we look forward to seeing Bradford Wheregate updates

cheers Brian

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thought you had got caught in the stacker! had visions of Mojo going
up & down for ever more.. :mutley:mutley
pleased your back on line now though

:doublethumb:lol::lol::lol::cool:

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Welcome back Mojo. A lot has happened in your enforced abscense and there are some exciting plans being formulated for a show next year. Updates will be forthcoming very shortly.

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Again, welcome back, Mojo. Looking forward to the updates!

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Glad to have you back Mojo. The world seems to shrink without a computer.



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Good to see you back. Looking forward to seeing the update pictures.

Bob(K)



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Amazing, my third attempt at posting as my computer and broadband connection continue to play up. Okay, one more time.


This is the goods warehouse which will justify some shunting movements on the layout. Windows courtesy of CG textures web site, printed onto good old sticky back paper.


The signals, working and fairly prototypically placed though in good need of some weathering.


'Fraid this isn't a very good picture. Just as the stacker was built to try to make as much use of vertical height as possible for storing trains so I had to go subterranean to fit the Heljan turntable, a birthday present. It was only after I installed it that I realised that it wouldn't accommodate a Pacific, though 9Fs down are okay. It's a nice piece of  kit and allows for me to change locos without hand shunting. Access is along the track originally envisaged for baby stacker and runs down a fairly steep slope, but as everything is running light then there doesn't appear to be a problem. I'll try to get mini cam to take a dive down underground sometime. However, the Heljan turntable can object to dust or any other bits falling into the well so I had to mount it on a board which could be lowered to allow maintenance. The switches are for the turntable roads along with gow bulbs to show which are occupied.


Hence the cheap car jack which supports the baseboard holding the turntable and which can lower and raise as necessary. I decided not to motorise it! I'm going to post the video separately as I'm worried it will crash this post again.



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Well,who's been a busy boy then???Great warehouses,signals,wall etc etc.
good to have you back with us Mojo!!!

:Happy

cheers,John.B.:thumbs



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mojo1
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It would appear that I can't download the video directly using the new "upload photo for insertion" tab, so I presume Photobucket is still an option. Here goes. Well that still seems to work. Some of the Freightliner containers I made up using Crafty Computer paper for the logos as I couldn't find any second hand ones. Excuse the Class 37 SPAD. That's 20p for the fine tin.
I hope the video shows better on your hardware than mine as my connection still keeps breaking up. That's all for now. Look forward to working my way back through 6 months of posts!

Cheers!







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The video works fine mojo and is crystal clear, excellent stuff, and great to have you back with us.



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Things have really moved on Mojo great progress.

I have the Heljan turntable myself i assume you mean if grit gets into the well rack it causes problems by jumping the rack and putting the datum of the track out?

cheers Brian

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The goods warehouse has come up very nicely Mojo.
Imposing, in a grubby sort of way.
Thanks for the video too, always good to see a layout in action.
cheers



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mojo1
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Nice to be back, although for how long depends on whether the connection is finally fixed. Re the turntable, Brian, I found it best to recentre it each time before I start a running session, if I intend to do any loco changes. The biggest problem was originally fitting it too firmly in the hole in the sub baseboard. It deflected slightly without my noticing and caused all sorts of problems with the indexing. Once that was sorted it hasn't caused any more problems. The lift mechanism is the fall back if anything goes wrong.

Promised myself this weekend to try and work through the last 6 months' posts as my missus is away at her sister's. Will that be long enough? Exhibitions? Seems a lot of catching up to do.



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It's a few thousand posts mojo so best of luck with that.



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just watched the vid mate,great stuff and those warehouses are the biz..

:doublethumb:lol::lol::lol::cool:

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mojo1
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Following the flat battery saga at the Berwick MREX last weekend I thought I'd better try out the video again, with new batteries. Seems to be working okay. So, nothing really new here, just some more trains going round and round. From the sound of the squealing there might be some hot boxes developing.
Looking at the vids again also highlights how much work still needs to be done.
Cheers






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Marty
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The videos give you a good overview of the layout and stacker Mojo.

If you feel so inclined maybe do one showing a full lap from the station and then into the stacker, activate the stacker to another level and bring a different train out into the station.

If you could show some shunting into the warehouse too then that would really show what it was all about.

I'm not rivet counter... It looks great to me.



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Ah well, back to reality after 3 weeks in the States. The only way to see a country is by train, but a word of warning-if you're ever tempted to travel on Amtrak and sleep, forget it, especially if you're on the top bunk on the upper deck of a two storey carriage, or is that car?  I learnt to dread the sound of the diesel horn going in the middle of the night, knowing we were approaching a level (grade?) crossing, and the subsequent crash as the wheels hit the change in track level. The railways in the States seem to be primarily freight carriers so such niceties as level track aren't such a consideration. Nevertheless, it was quite an education to see how much freight is moved by train, and the number of sidings off the main lines, their shiny tracks showing they are used regularly to service even small industries, as well as mines, steel works etc. Just as well that my BA baggage allowance didn't allow for major purchases but I did manage to buy some tools that I hadn't seen over here. Prices were so much lower, even allowing for the dollar pound rate. And as a final comment, if you ever are fortunate enough to go to Denver look up Caboose Hobbies-they also have an internet site -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhzInvosLAk-which you can walk through. Model railroaders' heaven, though no OO. They knew what it was but took some convincing as to the history of why we got saddled with such a hybrid scale/gauge combination. I'll try and sort out some photos which may be of interest to the HO fraternity. Happy trails.



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They will be of interest, Mojo :thumbs

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Looking forward to seeing them Mojo :thumbs

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Sounds like a great Trip Mojo looking forward to the photos

Has it given you the urge to do an American outline layout with lots of level crossings so you can sound lots off horns and bells:lol:

cheers Brian

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mojo1
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Amazing that it's so long since I've posted anything about Bradford Wheregate but it seems life (you know, the bit that comes in between the ballasting) continues to conspire against consistent modelling. So, in the meantime, I've been practising with Model Builder, an American software programme, in order to try to do something about the empty spaces above the retaining walls outside the station. As this is my idea of the West Riding, and my ficticious line is crammed into already occupied space I wanted to construct a woollen mill which dominated the skyline. The following is what I came up with. The Globe Worsted Company actually exists but my building doesn't follow the prototype, being a generic image of what I reckon mills in the West Riding look like. As an aside I got a very good deal on white LEDs from a firm in Germany, LED1.de, worked out at 17p each, including air mail, and they arrived within 3 days. Mills take a lot of illuminating.







This is the beginning, using Model Builder to work out window postitions on the scanned in stone image, print the file out onto A4 sticky label paper, and fix that to poster board. The next step is to cut out the window openings, then print the windows separately onto overhead transparency paper which then lines up exactly behind the apertures cut into the card. The whole process is amazingly quick. The only disadvantage is that Model Builder doesn't include stonework in the UK manner eg Ashlar, so I scanned in a mould, the origin of which completely eludes me, which gives a random stone effect. Although the printer doesn't print the white window frames onto the OHP it gives that impression as the "panes" of glass are separated from each other, and the OHP shows the light behind through the gaps. At the distance it is viewed from the illusion works okay.





This is a view looking towards the station of the completed mill, and also taking in the scene of Winston's recent triumphant stay. Seems people were so taken by his appearance that I swear they've been rooted to the spot, and are still discussing the whole event to this very day.



Looking in the London direction.



Looking in the same direction at night.





Back towards the station.



The Globe Worsted Company in all its nightime glory. I realize now I should have raised the sky scene a few more inches. or lowered the mill. The clock face was a download via Google, whilst the lettering was birthday cake letters picked up at Hobby World very cheap. The interiors are photos of real mill interiors, again courtesy of Google, and scaled down in Model Builder to a size a bit bigger than the windows, then fixed about half an inch behind the windows. Trim on the building is card, paper and balsa, and lots of glue, with quoins courtesy of Microsoft Word. The real Globe Worsted mill was built in 1887 so predates my version of the railway history of the West Riding. The leds are powered by a discarded 12v shaver charger and draw very little current. Hopefully they're not likely to burst into flames.






Finally a night time scene at the parcels depot which is still under development. Using the mirrored card inside the depot gives an impression of distance, although it's only a few inches deep. It's clear from this photo there is another gap top left above the retaining wall which now needs filling. And I'm starting to wonder whether I shouldn't have a go at rebuilding the parcel depot in a similar manner using Model Builder. As for the foreground,  it's not clear what to do with the space at the front of the layout so it remains bare (painted) board for now. The trouble with all this illumination of buildings is that it makes it painfully clear that my trains aren't lit up, and digital is way beyond my price bracket now. Looks like it's day time running from now on! By the by, the glass contains a cheeky little French red.




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 Posted: Wed Aug 18th, 2010 07:31 pm
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Birthday cake letters! What a great idea.
The whole thing looks marvellous, mojo. Just marvellous :thumbs :thumbs

Mike

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 Posted: Thu Aug 19th, 2010 03:47 am
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Outstanding.



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 Posted: Thu Aug 19th, 2010 05:32 am
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Nice to have you back Mojo, that mill is quite imposing towering over the retaining wall like that. Great job.

The use of the mirrored card can sometimes be a mistake, presenting an unreal aspect through odd angles.
Yours, on the other hand, appears just about spot on and makes the parcel depot platforms disappear underneath the building into a space that just isn't there. Well done.



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Very impressive Mojo.  :thumbs   It looks like you've been channelling Rod Stewart.

Enjoyed the vids as well.  :exclam



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 Posted: Thu Aug 19th, 2010 06:44 am
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Alan
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Very very nice Mojo

I like the wine glass in the last photo, has Peter been around :pedal

How have you found the software, is it good ?

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 Posted: Fri Aug 20th, 2010 11:55 am
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I would recommend Model Builder as a standalone programme. You can produce buildings for any scale, and the ability to import images and place them on your building eg windows, makes sites like CG Textures even more useful. It may be that someone with CAD experience could do the same thing, but that's not a programme I'm familiar with. Model Builder is user friendly, and their software support is excellent. I posted the templates for the mill on their forum so if you buy the programme you have access to a number of downloads. John Wiffen at Scalescenes produced a number of English brick templates for them which anglicises the buildings. I've been trying to persuade him to do some with English stone, eg his random Ashlar, but he doesn't think it is worth his while at the moment. It is possible to work around that however, without infringing his copyright.

As for Peter coming round I think I might have to go down and open up the cellar and produce something exotic-or nip down to the Co-op like I usually do and get a box in!



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 Posted: Fri Aug 20th, 2010 02:02 pm
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Well thats my header pic nomination for next week sorted! :thumbs That building looks great and realy fills the background well. So many good layouts are spoiled by the backgrounds but I think that this new building fits in realy well. ;-)

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Cheers Mojo

I will have to look at the programme, as it might offer what I need in the future

As for Peter, he cannot come around as he is busy screwing his module together :pedal

By the way, I love the way your layout is all coming together :thumbs

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 Posted: Fri Aug 20th, 2010 06:09 pm
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I have that programme plus the additional programmes from the same supplier being Brickyard & Window Designer - it should be in the Index being http://www.modeltrainsoftware.com/

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 Posted: Thu Jan 20th, 2011 06:36 pm
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With all the snow up here over the last two months I've had the ideal opportunity to strip down the stacker for maintenance, and add the final level, making 11 in total. Two and a half years on and no sign of wear in the mechanisms yet. The enforced captivity also gave me the opportunity to remove all the rolling stock and reorder it into formations eg coal, parcels, tankers etc, rather than the random sets I'd been using, as well as giving everything a check over. However, this contribution is about timetabling. I read a post on this forum a while back highlighting how the dissatisfaction factor with layouts can appear, and how do we get around this. It struck me, when I had the rolling stock laid out on the sitting room floor, on plastic sheet (much to the cat's intense annoyance as she was banned from the room), that I had lost track of the collection I'd built up (pun unintentional). Whilst everything on Bradford Westgate does get to run at some point the imagination bit had gone. Looking back I remembered how, as a kid, my Triang 0-6-0 plus goods wagons on a circle of track played the part of the Scotch Goods from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, while adding a coach at the end made it the Flying Scotsman. Happy Days. I enjoy watching the trains go by on Westgate, but I felt the fun factor had lessened. While the standard of models today reach even greater heights my enjoyment hadn't kept up with the added detail. So, I looked at running the railway in some sort of prototypical manner, and this is what I came up with.




Above is the track diagram of Bradford Westgate. The blue numbers are the power feeds, the green numbers are the signals while the red ones are the point numbers and settings, ie route a or route b.  The stacker is enclosed in the dotted line box at the bottom. The turntable is under the layout but that's another story, while the solid black lines represent platforms in the station, and also the parcels depot. My operating position is between the stacker and the goods and parcels depots. Visually, the scenic section is from about 11 o' clock to 3 o' clock. To refresh the memory it's basically a roundy roundy, crammed into 5' 6" by 10' with the stacker acting as the fiddle yard. I'd found that I had got used to running trains through on the same tracks with little operational variety, while the red signals were usually ignored. Basically the stacker supplied the trains and I just ran the next one provided. Very nice, but little fun. When I looked at the layout again I realised that I was driver, signalman, spectator, the kid with his Ian Allen ABC at the end of the platform, and the station master telling him off for straying past the platform ends in order to get that last "cop". While I couldn't run to a timetable governed by a clock I could look at sequencing the operation, and naming the trains.




A graph of the real thing. Pre computer, train timetables were done on graphs with the destinations on the x axis to the left and time on the y axis running to the right. The above is an example of the running lines from Paddington to Reading, Saturday timetable around midday. Maybe it's still done the same way, but looking at the end results you have to marvel at the skill in ordering trains to run without impeding other services, and making connections with other trains. I realised that I could maybe come up with something similar, albeit simplified, even within the confines of a model.




So on my timetable above, the left side represents the track sections on the layout, with the stacker tracks highlighted in orange. The sequence at the top starts with the stacker level being used, in this case level 0 which is the top level, with the sequence of moves going from left to right. So the first move is running a light engine from the turntable through platform 1 back to the turntable. All the feeds, signals and points are written down on the page, the latter being especially important when it comes to setting a double slip. Signals have to be obeyed, and in some cases, trains or light engines are held at a red while another train runs through.




 The end result. Basically a ring file, attached to the stacker on hinges so that it can fold out of the way when not in use. The track sections are laid out geographically on the left with dotted lines across the page representing light locos, dashes goods and continuous lines passenger. Being fixed next to the control panel makes setting sections, points and signals much easier. No trains can occupy the same horizontal line but can cross over sections to other tracks.  So in sequence 7, for example,  the UP ICI chlorine tankers has to be held on the UP through line to allow the UP Bradford-London express to cross over in order to occupy my fictitious climb out of Bradford Westgate towards Leeds. Naming the trains, and giving them a purpose, along with using this system has increased the play factor, although trying to get all the trains back to the level they started from, when trains terminate or reverse,  took me 57 pages. I should get out more! The page layout was done using the graph paper software freebie on the forum. Operationally, I can change locos, and reverse trains, but they have to return to their point of origin. As this is a sequential timetable then things can be left at any point until the next operating session. I wish I'd thought of this before as it has enhanced my play, even in the short time I've been using it. The next idea is to make up timetables where locos are changed as a matter of course, so that those held on the turntable are exchanged regularly for the running locos. While this is my answer for my layout it may help with other layouts where the imagination has begun to flag. I figure that however realistic the products of messrs Bachmann and Hornby et al become we still have to fill in the gaps for ourselves to make it really "real".





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 Posted: Thu Jan 20th, 2011 06:59 pm
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Mojo, that has given me food for thought, thanks, as you said the edge has dulled a little just sending them round
will give it a go and see if i get my mojo working again.

:thumbs:roll::lol::lol::cool:

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 Posted: Fri Jan 21st, 2011 01:15 am
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Well Mojo, you have not been sitting on your hands then - well done - I think it takes longer to work the schedules out than to run the trains.

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 Posted: Fri Jan 21st, 2011 07:45 am
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87 101
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I should get out more!
 

There was an awful lot of snow up your way ! :lol: :thumbs

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 Posted: Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 06:14 am
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I'm glad I've been back here!  I'm still reeling from the scale of that mill, Let me just see if I've got my head around it....you print the whole outside view on sticky paper and mount that on card, then cut out the windows as a square shape, re-print it on transparencies and stick them behind that. Then how do the pictures of the mill interiors [from Google] show through.....I'm a tidge confused?

Feeling Thick Doofer



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 Posted: Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 11:07 am
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Hi Doofer, don't know how familiar you are with the Model Builder software. If not then I hope this makes sense. Basically I imported the stone effect from a mould I had, via a scan, into MB.  I then scaled it to the size I needed, ie an A4 panel. The windows were imported from photos I had also scaled down, and then placed on top of that stone background, still in MB. 
These sheets were printed onto A4 sticky back paper. This was then stuck to card and the windows cut out. MB acts a bit like a photo editing programme in that whatever features you bring into your creation are like layers. So, in this case, I went back to the finished wall panel still on the computer, and removed the stone effect layer, thus leaving the windows in their original position.
These were printed out onto overhead transparency paper. The effect of printing on OHP is not the same as printing on paper or card as the finish is semi transparent, especially if you print in draft mode, or use a cotton bud to wash off some of the ink. From the windows above you can see how much is white or grey, which wouldn't be printed, but some of the panels are darker. With lights placed behind them anything to the rear of the windows shows through, albeit not clearly, while you also get an impression of window frames. These surrounding frames are only suggested by the glass panels, which do have some colour, as of course the printer can't print white onto any surface. The final touch was to go back to the original wall panel in MB, without the windows, and import the mill interior photos to place them in the window positions.
Again the stone layer was removed, and the remaining interiors were printed out and placed on card about 1/2 inch behind the windows, and illuminated. As the idea was to give a hint of an interior it didn't matter so much whether the interiors were distorted. The viewing distance is some 3' but a building much nearer might need window framing actually being added with tape or strip. Again, hope that makes sense, but let me know if i haven't made anything clear. Not sure why this post is all over the page, at least in preview.



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 Posted: Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 01:01 pm
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Chubber
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Thank you! Now it makes sense, as you were relying on the 'wgite' or light areas not being opaque on the transparency film.

Very effective, too. Thanks for taking the time to post the above, the 'MB' looks very useful, I think Sol uses it too.


Doug




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 Posted: Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 03:00 pm
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Thanks. I would certainly recommend Model Builder if only for it's inbuilt capacity to import images and scale them up or down within a modelling context.



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 Posted: Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 04:28 pm
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Yes, I have MB & their Window Designer but have not played with them yet coz Scalescenes has some/many goodies but it is there...

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 Posted: Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 05:32 pm
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Super looking layout Mojo, Those buildings are an inspiration and have given me loads of idea,s,
Regards,
Derek

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 Posted: Sun Jan 23rd, 2011 05:36 am
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87 101
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Like the sound of the A4 sticky back paper where do you get it from ?

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 Posted: Sun Jan 23rd, 2011 08:16 am
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mojo1
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Thanks for your comments. Sol, I e mailed John Wiffen at Scalescenes to ask him if he would consider doing a MB plug in for his stone paper, similar to the one he did for his brickpapers. Stone would be more appropriate for the area I'm modelling. Unfortunately it isn't in his plans, (or wasn't last August when I contacted him). Now he's on the forum maybe he'll reconsider? However, he said he was okay with scanning his brickpaper as an image into MB in order to work on it, as long as it's just for personal use. As I was in a hurry to fill a building gap in the background, to hide the bottom of the tv, I did this as seen below, using his dark ashlar. It did come out somewhat darker, and with a purple tone,  than I had anticipated but this was down to my printer settings. That's it top left. The roof area, and background, above the parcels' depot where the chimneys are, are yet to be redeveloped. Fred Dibnah's spirit will shortly be relocating the stacks to a more appropriate place on the layout.





More of a close up. The windows are much plainer than the Globe Worsted Mill, and are supposed to be of a more modern design. There is no lighting behind the windows as the mill interiors are fixed directly behind the windows as there wasn't sufficient space to place lights in there. However, from the right angle the interiors are visible and give an impression of depth. I settled for putting lights outside.


A general view of the south end of Bradford Westgate. I've been putting in cable trunking, (balsa strips), drains and adding ground texture rather than leaving bare brown painted board, as at the extreme right. However, it has dried much lighter than I'd expected although not as light as the photo tends to show it. Looks like a job for the airbrush at some point ie when it's warm enough up here to open the windows again. You can also see the gap in the background which needs to be filled. I've borrowed a book on textile mills from the library which, besides the photos, gives dimensions for some of the buildings. Watch that space!


I redid the station building wall in carved foam board to match the retaining wall style, and added some windows to make that corner a bit more interesting. The window frames were done with strip, inked with a cd marker pen. It was supposed to be some shade of black but reacted with the tape. Have to be done again. Seems the Bradford Park Avenue Boot Boys have been hanging around, judging by the broken windows. I couldn't get it to work with the camera but it is possible to see through the broken panes quite well. You can just see the dome of the Std 4 tank which is on pilot duty, much to the annoyance of the passengers who are waiting on the platforms, and getting covered with smuts! A diesel might be a better option.
I recently downloaded Scalescenes' large station in Ashlar which is going to go in the space in the picture below, with additional buildings and a passenger concourse, bus stops, parking etc, built as a module on the white foam board, which is 4' by 2'. This has to be removeable as the ply board is hinged, as is the station roof, in order to get to the tracks underneath. This bit of development may have to wait for the next blizzard, but has already been printed out, successfully, onto the ubiquitous sticky back A4 label paper. Ah well, as long as the Coop doesn't run out of ginger biscuits, or the Shiraz, everything will be ok.






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 Posted: Sun Jan 23rd, 2011 08:32 am
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Dave, in answer to your question I get them mail order from CLP office supplies. You get a box of a 100 A4 sheets for £5.99 plus £3.90 postage, but I believe p&p is free if you buy more than £30 worth of stuff from them. Website is http://www.clp.co.uk. Based in Dorset. Very prompt delivery. They do change the brands they sell, so for consistency of print out it is worth while laying in a stock. The adhesive is very good when sticking to card or paper, but benefits from using some sort of roller to get a good adhesion. As an aside, I forgot to thank you for your tip re the sky scenes for backscenes which I think you said came from HenryParrot. In the last photo you can see the back sky scene, again printed on sticky back paper. What I did was get a cheap roll of pale blue wallpaper and stuck the printouts on, sheet by sheet. It then makes it easier to roll it out and fix it to the foamboard backing, which I did with double sided tape. Ditto thanks for the tip re using stud fasteners for wall braces. You can see one on the rebuilt station wall. Cheers. 



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Thanks for the link I will have a look later. I got the stud fasteners idea from Doug who used them on the clock factory. Thats the great thing about this forum plenty of shared ideas. :thumbs

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 Posted: Mon Jan 31st, 2011 02:28 pm
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More satanic mills courtesy of Model Builder and Scalescenes.

 


Satanic Mill to go alongside the Globe Worsted mill. I kept this one plainer and haven't lit the interior. Still some detail to finish off, like covering the screw with a press stud. The above photo is taken from the roof of the parcels depot. Globe Worsted are doing well, it would seem, as their building looks to have had a wash and brush up, compared to their neighbour!




Another gap in the backscene filled.




Although the brick paper doesn't have any relief to it adding things like coping stones and quoins help give it some depth. The Scalescenes stone paper came out with a pinkish tinge, yet the ashlar I've just printed for the large station building came out the correct grey. Still, it's a better match for the factory building at this end of the layout. Although there's not much sky (paper) above the buildings I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to place some chimneys showing above the buildings as every photo I've ever seen of Bradford has at least one factory chimney in it.



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:hiMojo, Those buildings are the business. You have done a great job of capturing the atmosphere of an industrial Town in Lancashire.

regards,

Derek

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 Posted: Mon Jan 31st, 2011 03:33 pm
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Good Greif, Charley Brown!  That is one seriously good layout.   :doublethumb



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 Posted: Sat Apr 16th, 2011 12:20 pm
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Bradford Westgate's train shed has been finished for some time but I hadn't worked out what I wanted to do regarding the station building. Looking at photos of main line station buildings I decided to go for one with a porte cochere eg like Newcastle where there is a covered entrance for, originally, coach passengers to disembark in comfort. Apparently it was copied from coach entrances into the courtyards behind coaching inns. Having worked out the size of the available space, as shown in my post of 23rd Jan, this is my start. Basically made from poster board, foam board and balsa, and a lot of glue. I've used a Homebase stone tester pot for the colour, although this will be heavily weathered with 60's soot and grime. I envisage having stopping places for buses and taxis, although from what I understand from the books you wouldn't have seen that many parked cars around, given the level of ownership in 1968. Still, with the number of cars available from eg Oxford Diecast, I think Bradford might be due an economic upturn in order to justify an MGB getting covered in soot!


The buildings will be mounted on their own sub board. The current board will be covered with cobbles, pavements and maybe a hut for the taxi drivers.


The arches are from Wills, as are the window arches as I'm going to use Wills windows for the building. The finials? are map pins. I've managed to download some station interiors which I''m going to use along with the interiors Scalescenes provide for their large station. I was going to use this originally but it didn't fit well with the rest of the layout. Shame as it's a lovely piece of design work. The stone work is scribed into the card. What a pain that is. Quoins will be added when the building is finally ready for assembly. The bus will be repainted into the Bradford Corporation blue to match the Oxford Die Cast buses still in their boxes.

The administration corner of the station. Seems a shame to start messing around with sooting up the stone work. I'm thinking of using Modelmates washes but I'm not sure, even if the card has been sealed with paint, how the spray would take. Perhaps a dusting with weathering powders might be better. Time for some experimenting.



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 Posted: Wed May 4th, 2011 02:08 pm
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Thats going to be a lovely station model Mojo, Huge amount of arches and detail, Looking forward to more.
thanks,
Derek

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 Posted: Wed May 4th, 2011 06:41 pm
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The Bradford Westgate station buildings have weathered quickly in the Bradford of the 1960s.


I had tried using Modelmates sooty effect dye, but it didn't work well with the card as it is really a weathering medium rather than a finish on its own. In the end I settled for black matte acrylic car paint, with mixtures of yellow and brown acrylic ground-up chalks worked into the card with a glass fibre brush. Besides taking the shine off the paint it forces the chalk into the mortar lines and stonework. Unfortunately any attempt to seal the dust effect with varnish etc just kills the dusty effect so I'm leaving it unsealed, and trying to handle it as little as possible. For the forecourt, the idea is to have a bus drop off point in front of the station and a pick up by the front wall ie a one way system. A bit tight for a turning circle but as Oxford Diecast do accurate models of Bradford Corporation buses from the 60's then this is a must. Lights, pavements etc as well as building detailing like a roof and down pipes are for the future. 


This also shows the interiors, downloaded from various sites. The ground cover is A4 inkjet canvas effect paper which dyes well with blue/black fountain pen ink to give a nice cobbled effect. Again I will be using powders to tone it down. The windows and doors have been sprayed in NE region blue.


The porte cochere complete with sign and redundant watch. The sign is courtesy of MS Word and gill sans font. Vehicles by Oxford Diecast.


My attempt to blend the "new" unfinished buildings in with the general grot that is Bradford Westgate. Unfortunately I forgot to switch on the station lights and signals! The station signs sheet is hiding the fact that I still haven't got around to "greening" the available area at the front of the layout.


Trouble is now the backscene is too clean, as is the boundary wall to the front of the layout. Time to get the pencils and paints out. As renewing the lease for further occupation of the kitchen table has to be renegotiated, after a very generous two week run I might add, it might be some time before this is finished. As seen in previous pictures the station buildings are removable on their own board but as the board is difficult to negotiate in and out of the room I'm hoping to finish it in one go when the table lease is renewed, rather than move backwards and forwards, with all the risk of damage. I suspect there might be a price to pay for that renewal! 



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 Posted: Thu May 5th, 2011 01:06 pm
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there is alway`s  a price to pay mate, they have the POWER!!!

:mutley:lol::lol::cool:

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 Posted: Fri May 6th, 2011 12:16 am
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Brilliant................I love this thread....I get so many good ideas from it.

I am contemplating building the scalescenes station for Granby......this gives me a lot more confidence to take the plunge

Incidentally, although car ownership has increased dramatically since 1968, relative to the infrastructure then in place it was still quite heavy........negotiating Hyde Park Corner and Marble Arch were interesting exercises for a northerner......and in 1968 I owned a (occasionally) sooty MG Midget.............MGBs were not that uncommon



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Come on Owen, we let them think that. Makes our lives a lot easier, but don't let on, or the price will go up! Thanks for your comments, John. I'll have to see if Oxford Diecast do a MG Midget for the authenticity you understand. As most of the Westgate buildings are scratchbuilt I'll maybe use bits of the Scalescenes station for the interior downstairs eg the booking office, WH Smith etc. My wife and I were in BC in 2004 after travelling across Canada from Ontario by ViaRail. We loved it, and is most probably our most wanted revisit, with a stop over in Jasper.



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This is fine work - very impressive indeed.



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Woteesed!

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Petermac
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That's an absolutely cracking station environment Mojo :thumbs:thumbs:thumbs

Do I understand it's a Scalescenes plan but using your own materials or have I misread ?

Whatever it is, it really does look the part and perfectly conveys the filthy black, but rain washed appearance of the West Riding of the 50's and 60's.

To my mind, those "dark" satanic mills looked far better than the clinical offerings since they cleaned them all up.  Yes, architechturally, they're still wonderful buildings but they no longer convey that image of "greatness" - albeit at the expense of the poor blighters who used to work (and die) in them .............

You'll have guessed that I'm a "grubby West Yorkshire lover" .................:cheers:cheers



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 Posted: Sat May 7th, 2011 10:09 am
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mojo1
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Hi Peter, thanks for your remarks from a fellow lover of West Yorkshire 60's grubbiness. You're right, I wouldn't have wanted to work in them either! Re the plan, I had originally intended to use the Scalescenes large station, as I've seen one completed, and it is really good. However, I couldn't get the Scalescenes dark ashlar to match my handscribed cardboard and sooty effects which I'd used on the retaining walls and station shed, hence the scratchbuilt production. The final building is just my interpretation, based on a number of NE region stations which had porte-cocheres eg Stockton, Redcar, Newcastle of course, but scaled down somewhat to fit the cramped site it's going to fill. The interchange for the buses is a bit constrained, as is the lack of parking space, but I think it will work. All I need is a renewal on the lease for the kitchen table-very shorthold I anticipate this time round. The scary thing is that, barring one more mill building for the backdrop and some landscaping, I am reaching the stage where the layout is fundamentally finished. Then what? My wife's already hidden my "Layouts for Small Spaces" and says this time, being as this is the first layout she's seen near finished, she just wants to be able to sit and watch the trains go by, before Beeching steps in again. Ah well, there's still a "stackersworth" (good Yorkshire word!) of rolling stock to weather, to match that grubbiness. Where's that airbrush?



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 Posted: Sat May 7th, 2011 12:28 pm
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Are you a draughtsman Mojo ?

If that's your "representation" of the station, then it's gory good !!!

I'd be interested in hearing how you cut out all those arched windows :roll:  Is it a laminated structure like Scalescenes, in which case, there would have been double or treble that number to cut out ...............:shock::shock::shock:

As you say, it could be any one of those N.E. stations.  To me, it must have been a good design originally because they just re-scaled it and used it all over the place.  Positively oozes the golden age of railways. :thumbs



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Thanks Peter. Basically I used a compass cutter on mounting board (kills the blades very quickly though) along with a scalpel, then ran sandpaper around the arches to finish them off. Just one thickness of mounting board, glued to foamboard, which is easier to cut, to give it some depth. Any discrepancies I used Craftsman's Choice plastic filler for wood which you can get at local hardware shops. Works as well as Milliput etc, and as it's in a tube it lasts a long time. I used it where any of the foam filling came out when cutting the inner arches. The finished stonework over the arches are Wills, as are the windows. As far as the draughting is concerned, I just drew it all out on cartridge paper first to get an idea of the size/perspective/measurements etc, then redrew it on the mounting board. I pencilled in the stonework and carved out the courses and stones using a blunt blade. A covering of grime hides the bits that didn't come out so well! Thinking about it, I suspect the last time I used a compass in anger was about 40 years ago!



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Thanks Mojo :thumbs

A tedious job but the end result is certainly worth all the effort and tedium. :cheers



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I've had the chance recently to continue building my traditional NE station for Bradford Westgate, with portico and some sort of bus/taxi/car presence. The following photos are how far I've got, with lighting and structures far from finished. The roofs are only temporarily fixed in place.


This is Westgate in daylight. The buses, cars, taxis etc would drop off passengers in front of the portico then travel around the central island to pick up others. There will be more lights around the roadway, zebra crossing lights, vehicles and people. I've used LEDs for the contrast, and, because, apparently people kept getting knocked down by BR vehicles when they tried to cross the road under the portico to catch the bus.


This is the office end for porters, managers and lampmen. I've continued experimenting with using interior photo shots of offices, old buildings etc to give some depth to the scene behind the windows. The print outs don't have to be high quality in order to work.


Unfortunately the colour cast on the photo doesn't show how it looks on the model, but I couldn't get the camera to alter the white balance. However it gives an impression of the interior, which on the model shows up in a much more natural light.


The station sign in good old North Eastern region tangerine. The clock doesn't work. Apparently non working clocks were an everyday occurrence in the 60s at stations.


Just to make sure we know it's the NE region Bradford Westgate sports its own tiled map of the old NE railway, before Grouping. With a magnifying glass you can make out most of the detail.
The station buildings have been built on a module, as it would have been impossible to build them in situ, on the layout, due to lack of space. The test will be to transport it upstairs, without knocking off all the detail! However, that's a long way off yet as there is still a lot to be completed. Hopefully, the next photos will have more lights, figures and vehicles. The last thing to be done will be to slate and fix the roofs once I'm convinced the gow bulbs aren't likely to set the place on fire.



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It's really beautiful, Pat.  Have you thought about using LEDs?  There are some very natural looking ones about now.  Keep it up.  I'm really enjoying watching it progress.  :thumbs



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So am I............its a magnificent structure.......very impressive. I do like all the detail.......it adds so much credibilty to the model.



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The second picture on post 208 is extremely realistic, SWMBO said 'Is that a model, really?'

Nice work.

Doug



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:doublethumbWOW Mojo, Thats one great station and all those scenic effects and lights A1 super class.

Thanks for showing it.

regards,

Derek

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 Posted: Sat Jul 9th, 2011 03:34 pm
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mojo1
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Thanks guys. Re the lights, Max, I got a good deal on a number of Kytes lights so I'm using them in the buildings, and their ready made lamp standards for the foreground. They use a low voltage gow bulb, either 6v or 3v for the miniature ones, and by varying the voltage it has more effect on the atmosphere than with the LEDs which I normally use. And Doug, thank your missus for her complimentary remarks. She is obviously a woman of discerning taste; after all she did marry you. The next step is to add the vehicles, people, phone boxes etc, but I'm not sure how far to go with the detailing, besides the buildings, as I don't want it to look too cluttered. More experimentation is needed, methinks.



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You are a smooth talker!  Re 'too cluttered' I don't think anyone can go too wrong if you only put in the things that would really be there, clearly a couple of news-vendors with bill boards... 'E'en Standard!!..get yer E'en Standard...', a kebab van and police patrol van would be out of place  outside Bear's End or Much Binding in the Marsh, but right at home with your Metrollops!


Doug

[It's only what Jim SW keeps saying, model what you see, not what you imagine.....so bang goes my Miss Lostwitheil riding the buffer-beam of the City of Truro entering Bear's End on Pasty Monday.....]



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Having got hold of some of the pills I reckon Dave Bentley must be on I've managed to get a move on with installing the lights and belisha beacons for the station forecourt.


A late afternoon aerial view. The lights are courtesy of Kytes Lights. Gow bulbs at 6v, drawing 67ma per bulb. This does add up, and I've had to replace the psu with something with more oomph to cope with the current. The belisha beacons are courtesy of Layouts4U. These are flashing LEDs, but they flash at too fast a rate so I've had to wire in two 1hz flasher units courtesy of Black Cat Technology, who happened to be at the Hartlepool show this weekend gone. They are apparently bringing out a random flashing unit for crossings, so that the rate can be varied. Sadly, I spent some time on the net looking at videos of belisha beacons. One thing is that they don't flash at the same rate-I don't know what controls them in real life.


Evening starts to draw in. This view won't be available once the module is in place on the layout. The buses are courtesy of Oxford Diecast, as are most of the other vehicles. I was lucky in that OD had produced authentic Bradford Corporation buses in the right livery, just when I needed them. I would have like to have tried to install trolleybuses, a real feature of 60's Bradford, but the thought of all that overhead wiring put me off. I have enough problems avoiding knocking the lights. The buses are due to be weathered, and to be lit up internally, and with working head and tail lights. That's the next project. Also, this will mean painting more passengers. Not sure my eyesight will be up to it. I try not to use action figures when populating a layout, so my lot just seem to be standing or sitting around. Also, although there are a number of excellent painted and unpainted OO figures available I've found getting some variety, and of the right time period, difficult. Also trying not to mix summer and winter figures, and using plainer colours for clothing (it's supposed to be Bradford 1968) is a poser.


The offices. The phone and letter boxes are courtesy of Gilbow who seem to be matching the Skaledale output. Most probably made by the same Chinese firm! I had experimented with lighting the phone boxes but they cast an eerie red glow as they are transluscent so they've been left. In the absence of litter bins dustbins seemed to be the order of the day.


Night time has set in now, and the lights show more clearly.

 
A view of the portico and forecourt. The LED lighting helps with picking up the detail inside the portico.


On the left the MPs have come to pick up a very drunk squaddie who can just be seen not standing up as the MP Sergeant gives him a mouthful. Outside, another MP waits by the Army car, as a British Transport Policeman wisely lets the military sort it all out. On the right a couple are looking at the train times. The board was photocopied from a very old book on Railway modelling by Edward Beal. I've never found anything better than this.


Everyone dutifully waiting to cross the road.


Again another view that won't be available in situ. Another Transport Policeman is holding up the traffic to allow the passengers to cross.


Final shot. The last bus of the day is waiting for the late night revellers to return on the late evening train from Leeds. I suspect the driver has gone off for a smoke. Where the bus is standing there will also be two bus shelters, in the old style, as well as bus stops. The buildings still need detailing, and I'm trying to put off tiling the roof-something I always have trouble with. Still, for the moment it's time to very carefully move the module to the layout, pray nothing falls off and get on with some other jobs, before the pills wear off!



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Petermac
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I don't know what to say Mojo.  To say it looks stunning is a complete understatement !!

I could - and will - study each shot in great detail.  There's so much to see and so much authenticity in an area that, as you already know, is close to my heart - the "grubby" industrial West Riding.

very, very well done - it's amazing.

now, if you'll forgive me, I'm going back for another - longer - look. :cheers:cheers:cheers:cheers:cheers



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:doublethumbI am with Peter with his comments on your Fantastic station and its surrounds Mojo. I am really looking forward to seeing it in its place of honour on your railway :thumbs

By the way any chance of a few of those pills! :mutley

regards,

Derek

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Thanks for your comments, guys. Just to show that Westgate Station buildings made it safely up the stairs, through two reversals, including backing into the cupboard, then gently eased into place. Thanks to Pam for all the help. Don't know who was more nervous.



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:hiMojo, Thanks for showing the master piece in place.

And thank you Pam for helping to get it there safely :thumbs and for keeping Mojo focused on this great project :mutley.

Cheer,s to you both.

Derek

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Pam says thank you for your thanks, but insists the next time it's moved, we use Pickfords!



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Love the layout Mojo it' a stunner:thumbs



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Having spent some time on the dark side, ie Train Simulator 2012 and Raildriver rather than DCC, I've got round to almost finishing the Westgate Station buildings. The initial shots were taken of the diorama on the workbench as the layout room makes it difficult to take a variety of shots. I've used Photobucket as I seem to have lost the ability to retrieve the photos I've got on my computer and put them in the gallery.




This is with the portico removed as I played around with the car positions and did some maintenance on the lights.






This is looking along the covered concourse with the portico back in place. Difficult to get the whole picture in sharp focus.






Backed off a bit. The Skaledale flower bed has been decimated and replanted after complaints from my in house artistic advisor who reckoned it spoilt the whole effect. In the end the war memorial was also weathered somewhat on her advice. She was right.






The whole of the main station entrance complete with traffic and people jam.






Showing the end building and the lit up buses, using leds. I thought about lighting up the cars as well, but as this view will not be seen when the station is back in place then I felt life was too short to go that far.






Similar view.






One of the zebra crossings. The road surface is canvas ink jet paper printed on and weathered to give the cobblestone effect.






I used Preiser HO figures for the buses and cars as they looked more in scale, even though the vehicles are OO. I haven't recovered from painting them yet, or printing and then cutting out the authentic registration plates for the buses. Apparently they kept their London numbers after they were transferred to Bradford.






Not sure the taxi should have stopped there.






No prizes for guessing which year my layout is based on, given the film posters.






Or the female film stars involved in some of said films who made such an impression on me in my adolescence. If only Preiser made them in 4mm (or even HO).






Another view unlikely to be repeated when the station is back in place. Looks less crowded from this angle.






I realised the wall was a bit low, so railings were obviously needed, but not before the move back to the layout room.






Safely back in place, with all the chimneys, vehicles and people still firmly rooted to the spot. Please ignore the overscale hanging basket fibre to the front-the next job. The railings show up well and finish off the scene. I still need an extension to the station building to the left at the back, but I haven't decided whether to build something more modern or continue the blackened sandstone effect.



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All we've got are the Photobucket links, Pat.

Maybe Martin can help.  I'll leave him a message in the Mod's Section.



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MaxSouthOz wrote: All we've got are the Photobucket links, Pat.

Maybe Martin can help.  I'll leave him a message in the Mod's Section.

If you want to see photo's rather than links use the "Flash" but rather than the URL button




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Photbucket pics should appear as photos in the text, Dave.



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I have done the one just to make sure the pictures are there OK but there has to be a better way than I have used so I think it's better to wait for Martin to give us an answer.



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Barchester
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 Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 07:01 am
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Robert
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Thanks for sorting that one for us Martin. Great photographs, well worth waiting for.



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 Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 08:22 am
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mojo1
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Thanks for sorting out the photos Martin. I'm having major problems with IE9 on all sorts of matters so it's possible this may be screwing things up. On the other hand it may just be me! Cheers.



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 Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 09:41 am
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Kevr
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That scene looks superb from all angles :thumbs, It shows just how much work you have put into it



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 Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 12:06 pm
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I agree Kev.  It's also such a shame to hide it in the corner of a layout ........................:roll::roll:

Can't you keep it on full display somewhere Mojo ?  I do however, think you should stick with the typical "dirty black stone" of the West Riding - I can't be doing with all this modern pressure wash cleaning !!  It ruins heritage, wastes water and clogs drains. :thumbs



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 Posted: Tue Feb 21st, 2012 11:00 pm
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Amazing Job!!!!

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 Posted: Wed Feb 22nd, 2012 10:53 am
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mojo1
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Thanks guys. Unfortunately, Peter, I hadn't intended to go quite so far in detailing the station forecourt, but it just grew. The diorama's function is to cover the 180 degree turn back onto the stacker and was designed to fit into that space. It's a shame it is a bit out of the way but the lights do draw the eye to that end of the layout. I just hope the trackwork underneath doesn't develop problems as it's a pig to have to move it. And yes, the smoke blackened look is staying, although one thing the West Riding is rarely short of is water!



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 Posted: Fri Nov 16th, 2012 07:42 am
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