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Southern Railway 1923-38 - General Model Railway Discussion. - Other Areas. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 09:08 pm
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Dorsetmike
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I often get the feeling I'm the only one modelling the SR pre WW2, especialy in N gauge, obviously there must be some or there would be no RTR nor kits for the SR in that period. Very few shows I have been to have featured SR in 1920/30s; where do the rest of you hide, I know of a few in 00 gauge but not in N; Southern layouts featured on forums always seem to be set post WW2.



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 Posted: Thu Oct 8th, 2020 11:58 pm
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Colin W
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Silver lining? At least there should be bargains in the pre-owned market place.

Do tell us more about what you're doing,

Regards,

Colin



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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 08:40 am
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Petermac
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You've answered your own question Mike - it's because it's the Southern Region ......................... :mutley :mutley



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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 11:23 am
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Dorsetmike
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Petermac wrote: You've answered your own question Mike - it's because it's the Southern Region ......................... :mutley :mutley

I quote Queen Vic "We are not amused!!!!!!!!!!"



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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 11:44 am
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Ed
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Petermac wrote: You've answered your own question Mike - it's because it's the Southern Region ......................... :mutley :mutley

Should've done a few of these Mike


:tongue




:mutley


Ed



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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 01:26 pm
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BCDR
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Well I like the Southern Railway. Green and sunshine yellow, the Orange Blossom Special, The Crescent, heavy weight passenger cars with live music every evening, early EMD E series diesels.....oops, wrong country.

I think part of the problem is the electrification program that the SR (and it's predecessor constituents) undertook in the interwar wars. If you are into the BILs, LAVs, etc. OK, steam, not so great. It was also the smallest of the big four in track mileage, and geographically had ports north and south to move goods around. Add to that the size of the N scale market and the number of RTR manufacturers and it's almost a niche subject. I also suspect that modeling the interwar period is becoming a shrinking topic. 

Lots of us are in niche subjects (how many RTR EM or P4 gauge models are out there?) and have to adapt or change. I dabbled in N gauge GWR for a couple of years, lack of RTR models was a major factor in dropping it. There are a lot of GWR classes common in the '20's and '30's that are not available as RTR in OO or N. Same applies to other groupings. 

Nigel

Forgot to add: If the RTR manufacturers cannot cover post-grouping and BR they are unlikely to make it. SR electrification got rid of a lot of passenger steam stock before nationalization.



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 Posted: Sat Oct 10th, 2020 08:43 pm
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Dorsetmike
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The electrification up to WW2 only reached as far as Portsmouth on the S coastand not much past Woking on the Southampton, Bournemouth and West of England linesand in fact did not reach Bournemouth until 1967, Weymouth in 1988. So over half the route mileage remained Steam until then. Electrification did not reach much of Kent until the 1950s.

I tend to think of it as almost a "catch 22" situation, nobody models the SR because nobody makes any to sell; nobody makes any to sell because nobody models it.



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 Posted: Sun Oct 11th, 2020 10:23 am
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col.stephens
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I think the point is that, irrespective of where electrification actually reached, there were fewer classes of steam locomotives than on the other big three companies. Divide these up into the respective regions of the SR and you are left with even fewer locos for your chosen area.  Of late there have been a number of Southern locos being produced in OO, not only by the main manufacturers, but also by commissions from retailers (Kernow, Rails of Sheffield). 
 
Terry

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 Posted: Sun Oct 11th, 2020 12:11 pm
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Dorsetmike
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With fewer classes of loco one would expect that it would be easier for manufacturers to choose a representative selection, in my area and period, ex LSWR mid 1930s, there were at least 9 classes of 4-4-0, 6 Drummond -, 2 or more Adams and the Schools, of which 2 RTR (T9 & Schools), 3 classes of 0-6-0 tender, 2RTR (0395 and 700),  6 of 4-6-0s (of which 5 made it well into BR) - nil RTR  (compare GWR, LMS or LNER).
The ex LBSC and SECR also had 4-4-0 and 0-6-0 classes, so far only 0ne 0-6-0 RTR; it's a similar story with tank locos.
I'm beginning to think that GWR is a cult, I see no other reason for the preponderance of their loocos RTR; is there one of their 4-6-0s that has never been produced RTR?, mind you they all look the same except for size, so it must be so easy for manufacturers, just stretch or shrink it a bit, same with tank locos, 2 basic shapes pannier or prairie, just add or subtract wheels, stretch or shrink.



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 Posted: Sun Oct 11th, 2020 01:29 pm
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BCDR
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Cult? That sort of comment gets the internicene blades out. I model the G.W.R because I grew up in the middle of it. If I had enough space I would be be modeling somewhere like Oxford or Banbury that saw locomotives from the Big Four.

50% electrification of what was already a small track mileage to start with definitely had an effect on stock. If I remember correctly the business of the SR was as a people mover. 

One reason the locos of the G.W.R look similar is because....they were. Early standardization of parts ensured that. One 4-6-0 not modeled is the Kruger. And try finding any 4-6-0 with square frames. And there were good reasons why the 4-6-0 locomotives of the LMS and SR looked like G.W.R. ones.


N-scale is a small market badly served by the manufacturer no matter what region (there really is only one, Union Mills is very small). I would question why the various societies have not stepped up and commissioned some models.

Nigel



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 Posted: Sun Oct 11th, 2020 02:46 pm
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Dorsetmike
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Cult? That sort of comment gets the internicene blades out.

Twould seem I've put the feline amongst the feathered rats :roll:
I agree that standardisation will have advantages for the operator but it can be boring to the observer, there was some standardisation among the SR constituents, LSWR 4-6-0s of classes H15, N15 and S15 for example and Drummond 4-4-0s, also SECR 4-4-0s but there was still plenty of variety compared to GWR



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 Posted: Sun Oct 11th, 2020 04:56 pm
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BCDR
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Hi Mike,

I spent a few hours going through  SR and predecessor steam stock. I think your comment re they all look alike could just as well apply to much of the SR stock. Where there the variety comes in is from the pre-grouping stock, most of which didn't last long. I think this comment about manufacturers not covering a decent range of models could apply to the GWR pre-grouping as well. How about their failure to come up with many of the Dean/early Churchward locomotives, many of which ran into the mid-1930's? No RTR steam railmotors (took Kernow to do that). No 4-4-2s (the "French" ones). No Atbaras. No Atlantics.  No Birds. No County Tanks. No Flowers.

I think the manufacturers limit themselves to not only (did it run on BR) but also to about 80-90 years ago. Just so happens that a lot of G.W.R. stock from before that made it into BR.

Nigel



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 Posted: Sun Oct 11th, 2020 05:19 pm
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Petermac
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Dorsetmike wrote: ....................
I'm beginning to think that GWR is a cult,...............

I see absolutely no reason to rise to that bait Mike.  :lol:

As I model the LNER / LMS borders, I can be comfortable in my smugness knowing it's only "the others",  attempting to avoid the lesser regions becoming the subject of "you'll never believe this but there used to be companies trying to run trains in the West Country / Southern Region".  Well done Mate for trying to preserve the memory of what always was a lost cause ......... :mutley :mutley :mutley



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 Posted: Sun Oct 11th, 2020 06:36 pm
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col.stephens
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I wonder if there is really a demand for the larger locomotives.  Personally, I usually buy tank locos and small tender locos, plus any diesel that is appropriate to my chosen era/region, as any layout I build will probably represent a small branch line, due to lack of space. The fact that modellers are crying out for small locos is evidenced by the success of recent releases by Hornby (two Pecketts and the Terrier), Rails (Terrier), Hattons (P class and Andrew Barclay), Kernow (LSWR O2), Bachmann (Webb coal tank, J72, C class).  I'm sure there are other small locos which slip my mind at present.  I suspect that this is the way forward for the manufacturers, small locos and especially industrial types, which are proving to be very popular.

Terry

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 Posted: Sun Oct 11th, 2020 07:53 pm
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Petermac
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I think you're probably wrong Terry - it IS the big locos the market demands.

I don't have a big loco stud and, having had to downsize my layout when we moved, I've now got unnecessary main-line stuff but not many of the smaller tank or tender engines.  Looking at the products available, there don't seem to be many on the market.  Not as glamorous as the big Pacifics, in spite of the fact that very few layouts would be big enough to justify such locos.  I think it rather spoils the effect when you see a big locomotive hauling just 2 coaches when even those 2 won't fit in the available platforms.

I actually have very little idea of what the Southern had by way of small locos - to me, it was always the West Country, Battle of Britain and Merchant Navy classes that one dreamed of spotting, not the dirty little mouse-type things that lurked around in the shadows.  I suspect collectors feel the same so manufacturers have to pander to the market, not the genuine modeller.



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 Posted: Mon Oct 12th, 2020 11:30 am
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Dorsetmike
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It does seem that manufacturers tend to concentrate mainly on pacifics and a few 4-6-0s - "iconic/prestige"- and tanks - "cheap and simple to produce" and not much in between, noticeably so in N gauge - apart from Union Mills who do mainly 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s and a few 4-6-0s with no outside cylinders or valve gear. and until recently hardly anything GWR. In N gauge apart from the above mentioned Union Mills I can only think of two 4-4-0s produced by Farish or Dapol, LMS 4P compound  from Farish and SR Schools from Dapol (both of which could be considered iconic?) At least though 6 and 8 coupled freight locos are better represented for the LMS and LNER whilst Union Mills do some SR and GWR types as well)

Reminds me of the RAF saying -" if ya can't take the joke, ya should'nt have joined"



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